Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

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Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

June 13, 2012, 01:14:39 pm

Well I hope I don't jinx myself with this but I have to remark on the general sturdiness of our 1993 U225 Grand Villa. It's our first "real" motorhome (we had one of the Winnebago Le Sharos 20 years ago and I'm not sure that counts) although we've had RVs of one sort or another since the 1970s.

There is a certain risk one takes with any older motor home but some are certainly riskier than others. For $18,500 in cash I was expecting some problems even though the RV looked to be in excellent shape. I did not do (and have not yet done) an oil or transmission fluid analysis and, really, a minimal driving test (30 minutes). I didn't really even have as thorough an understanding of Foretravels as I should have. (No idea of the bulkhead problems, for instance - our Rolocks tested at 22 inch-pounds on the torque wrench I bought specifically to check for this - after buying the coach.)

Yet this coach has surpassed my every expectation. The handling is generally excellent. Sue (the DW) has been a school bus driver for more than a decade and tells me that the FT handles and rides much better than any bus she's driven. The coach came with a Banks Stinger package so I cannot compare before and after but it seems to be fairly peppy to me; especially considering its size and the fact that the engine is the same as in my 1994 Dodge pickup. The DW says that, compared to her 400hp school bus it's slow. So, nothing's perfect.

I have had one major problem and that was an alternator that was, I am convinced, due to a poor installation on the part of a previous owner. The mounting position for the alternator behind the rear radiator is not very good for cooling as it is and then jumpering the battery sense to the ignition connection (which is 0.6vdc below battery voltage due to the isolator) only made it worse. The alternator's regulator kept output high to get the batteries up to voltage but the isolator's voltage drop made that all but impossible. I connected the sense directly to the battery via the remote start switch.

There have been some wire separations due to corrosion and we are fixing these as we identify them. Working back in the cramped engine area one has to be constantly aware of wire bundles and some of the connections are so fragile that the slightest touch can break them. Reconnecting them can be difficult depending upon the condition of the connections themselves. But nothing some work with a Dremel cannot fix.

The only other thing that I've found (so far) is the heat wire on the main salon air conditioner. Everything else that I've fixed has been the result of poor workmanship on the part of a previous owner.

The motor home just works. Including the dash a/c, the cruise control, the CB, the seats, the ice maker, the garbage compactor, the retarder (after market PacBrake), the windshield washers and the wipers... it is remarkable and a testimony to the design and assembly crew at Foretravel in Nacodoches then and, from what I hear, now.

Traveling in 85-F temperatures I specifically checked for excess heat buildup in the bedroom (located conveniently over the diesel engine) and found none; the temperature in the bedroom matched that in the living room.

The windows are well located and large enough to provide a cooling effect through the entire coach if there is any wind at all outside. The awnings keep solar heating to a minimum and are so easy to deploy (well, the big one is a little bit of a tussle but the small ones are simple and effective). We were parked in full sun and were completely comfortable inside the coach which actually felt cooler than when we stepped outside into the sun.

I just had to say this because it's so easy to buy an RV and discover hidden problems. If anyone is reading this and trying to decide on a motor home, I can say that even after almost 20 years of use, the Foretravels hold up. Not all are trouble free, I admit. But the foundation is there.

And now, of course, something nasty will happen.

Craig

We just spent a relaxing weekend at a local Bureau of Reclamation campground with no hookups and enjoyed every minute of it.

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #1 – June 13, 2012, 01:41:48 pm

Craig, I smiled when read the part about the 400hp school bus. Some things figure into why it is more jumpy, like the rear gearing, school bus gearing is more for the local stop & go, not touring.

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #2 – June 13, 2012, 01:46:04 pm

I think construction has lots to do with it. The term monocoque is associated with air plane construction and the term semi-monocoque is associated with high end motor coach construction. The Foretravel is constructed using a semi-monocoque chassis which helps the coach hold up while traveling down the road. This helps maintain the interior fit and finish which inturn helps keep everything solidly together for a much longer time than the normal ladder frame construction motorhome. I always like the following article. He may not be perfect in describing how our coach are built, but I think it is a testament to the type of constuction used by Foretravel. But one must remember, the even air planes can come apart in the air if not properly maintained!

"CLASS A MOTORHOME CHASSIS

By: Bob Gummersall

The Chassis under 99% of the Class A Motorhomes manufactured today is a basic Frame Rail. One Hundred % of over the road passenger buses are built on monocoque or semi-monocoque chassis. Full monocoque chassis surround the complete vehicle with frame members. Semi-monocoque chassis use frame members on the lower half of the vehicle, and that provides a very strong base for the rest of the coach. I wonder why that is? A monocoque construction technique is like that of a girder type bridge with support elements diagonally placed between vertical and horizontal elements. Like bus chassis a motorhome semi-monocoque chassis use less weight and gain more strength. Like Greyhound type buses and all new automobiles, this technique provides more rigidity while providing huge inside storage and living space. Frame rails are used in most trucks from pickup to 18-wheelers and the cab is always separate from the payload body. That is because, no matter how big and strong the frame rail is, there is significant torque turning, or twisting, from the front to the rear of the vehicle. In order to limit the damage from this twisting process, truck chassis manufacturers heat treat or temper the rails after key holes are drilled to accommodate components to be attached. Drilling new holes or welding any new components to this hardened frame rail, voids the warranty because it is therefore weakened. Special fasteners, called huck bolts, are normally used to attach truck components to the frame rail because normal bolts no matter how tight they are installed, will eventually loosen.

Motorhome manufacturers use the front and rear caps, the side walls, roof and floor to stiffen the box against this always present torque or twisting. They use special glues and fasteners to attach large sheets of plywood and fiberglass to a simple steel or aluminum frame for all six sides of this box to make it stay together. If perfectly done, the box sides will stiffen the whole vehicle. If not perfectly done, fiberglass will be delaminated, rear overhangs will droop, front and rear caps will crack, many unfixable rattles will develop, and the structural integrity in case of an accident will be weakened. I have seen roll over accidents where all six sides of the frame rail chassis came apart. I have seen roll over accidents of monocoque or semi-monocoque chassis that have simply been righted and driven away. I have not seen any roll over accidents with frame rail chassis where all six sides stayed together. I have not seen a single roll over accident with a monocoque or semi-monocoque chassis where the six sides did not stay together.

If you ride in a 20 year old passenger bus or semi-monocoque motorhome you will find that it is still tight and almost rattle free. It is rare if you find a 20 year old frame rail chassis that that tight. There is really no comparison between the chassis types concerning passenger safety. The monocoque or semi-monocoque wins every time.

So why don't more motorhome manufacturers use a semi-monocoque chassis? The reason is primarily cost. Spartan, Freightliner, Ford, and Union Bay (used to be Chevrolet) supply frame rail chassis to volume motorhome manufacturers. Some makers like Winnebago, cut a frame rail in two, and build a center section that is semi-monocoque design to strengthen the vehicle and gain large storage compartments. All other makes of monocoque or semi-monocoque coaches, manufacturer custom chassis to meet their own specific requirements. Newell, Vogue, Monaco, Foretravel, and Country Coach are the major coaches makers that use custom designed semi-monocoque chassis. These companies have a chassis division that supplies them with proprietary products."

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #3 – June 13, 2012, 05:56:18 pm

Craig, did you say 22 inch/lbs? I thought it was 250 inch/lbs. Wouldn't be the 1st time I was wrong.

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #4 – June 13, 2012, 06:41:45 pm

Steve,

250 inch-lbs= 21 ft-lbs. I think it is just a misprint. 21 inch-lbs= 1.8 ft-lbs which you could apply with your little finger. Probably not adequate to hold a coach together.

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #5 – June 14, 2012, 12:50:59 am

Quote from: wolfe10 – June 13, 2012, 06:41:45 pm

Steve,

250 inch-lbs= 21 ft-lbs. I think it is just a misprint. 21 inch-lbs= 1.8 ft-lbs which you could apply with your little finger. Probably not adequate to hold a coach together.

But easy to torque! Yes, 21 ft-lbs is right.

Craig

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #6 – June 14, 2012, 10:31:15 am

I wish all prospective used motorhome buyers would read this thread. We are on our second 1993 Foretravel and I can't agree more what a value these coaches provide. It is hard to believe so many of the original systems are still performing as new.

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #7 – May 15, 2013, 06:25:58 pm

I am considering buying a 1994 Foretravel 36/U225 with Cummins ISB 230HP. It will be our first RV. I was wondering how much of remodeling did you have to do in 2009. Was that as expensive as buying a used 94 FT (about 20K) ... If you don't mind talking about it? If you do no worries. Thank you.

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #8 – May 15, 2013, 07:47:03 pm

Quote from: propman – May 15, 2013, 06:25:58 pm

I am considering buying a 1994 Foretravel 36/U225 with Cummins ISB 230HP. It will be our first RV. I was wondering how much of remodeling did you have to do in 2009. Was that as expensive as buying a used 94 FT (about 20K) ... If you don't mind talking about it? If you do no worries. Thank you.

Brought a new mattress for the stick house and moved the one that was in the stick house into the U225 bedroom. Does that count? Have had several routine maintenance items but that comes with ownership, just like the stick house maintenance! Talking about that, I will be spending a small fortune on new tires this summer, and also adding air pressure sensors on the tires. But remodeling, I still have the remodeled upholstery that the original owner. Oh, I do want to re-upholster the cockpit seats.

And if I found a really nice '96 or '97 FT with a Cummins C8.3 I'd consider selling my U225!!! Then I would not have to do any more re-modeling of the U225.

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #9 – May 15, 2013, 07:50:55 pm

Quote from: propman – May 15, 2013, 06:25:58 pm

I was wondering how much of remodeling did you have to do in 2009.

Welcome to the forum!

Are you specifically asking Kent about the work done on his 1993 (since he mentions "restored at FOT in 2009") in his signature? I'm just wanting to clarify your question

.

Michelle

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #10 – May 15, 2013, 08:19:06 pm

Quote from: propman – May 15, 2013, 06:25:58 pm

I am considering buying a 1994 Foretravel 36/U225 with Cummins ISB 230HP. It will be our first RV. I was wondering how much of remodeling did you have to do in 2009. Was that as expensive as buying a used 94 FT (about 20K) ... If you don't mind talking about it? If you do no worries. Thank you.

I presume your question regarding remodeling was to me or Kenhat. We both had our coaches restored at Foretravel in 2009. The restoration on my U300 was very comprehensive. It included a full body paint job, roof paint, new breathable ultraleather on the J couch and both front seats, new carpet, new valances and window treatment, new solid walnut Flat Screen TV box in front, new night blinds, new electric MCD front shades, new air bags, new shocks, hose and electrical reels, new EMS, new tires, new 3000 watt inverter/charger, new Traveler Satellite and Dish 722 receiver, new windshield sun screen, new double pane tinted windows and new window awnings. The total was close to $50,000 but that's a lot more than needs to be done. The previous owner considered this his passion and had all the money he needed. I would not recommend doing all of this to a U225 or even another U300 if you wanted to get most your investment back. But I can tell you we enjoy living in it equal to that investment and we think of and thank the late John and his wonderful wife Sandi Rosti, the previous owners, every single day.

Our former coach, a 1993, U225 recently sold by Dave and Dolly Cobb needed almost nothing done to it. It was ready to drive virtually anywhere when we bought it, when we sold it to Dave and Dolly and when they just recently sold it last month. A lot depends on the original color and fabrics used, how well the coach was cared for and just plain good luck. Additional cost for mechanical repairs are usually far less of a concern than simple replacement items such as batteries, tires, air conditioners, furnaces, microwave/convection oven, refrigerator and water heater. The quality of appliances used by Foretravel in the early 90's make a 20 year plus life expectancy the norm rather than the exception. We have an original A/C, refrigerator and water heater, now 20 years old working as good as new. However, I would figure and additional $10,000 the first year in addition to the purchase price as a safe rule of thumb for getting a 20 year old Foretravel ready to meet you expectations. My opinion, if I didn't have to worry about recovering my investment, spending $50,000 on a 20 old Foretravel would be much wiser and make me happier than spending $250,000 on another brand new, some other brand motorhome, but everyone to their own tastes.

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #11 – May 15, 2013, 08:33:47 pm

Kent, I could not agree with you more! A Rolls, is a Rolls, is a Rolls..........and a FT is a Rolls; Rolls Royce that is as Foretravel built these coaches with pride..... at least in our earlier models can be maintained and upgraded by a good segment of our present owners. win/win!

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #12 – May 15, 2013, 09:35:35 pm

All it takes is money!

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #13 – May 20, 2013, 02:31:54 pm

Thank you all very much. Thank you for welcoming me. Within last few days I have gained so much from you all and from past postings from our forum .."our forum" I think i am here to stay for a long time :-) & hope to be able to contribute also.

Well I am heading to Nacogdoches tomorrow morning early (220 mil from my home) .. Let's see what's the deal with the 94/225 they have over there.
AL

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #14 – May 22, 2013, 03:05:54 pm

Quote from: propman – May 20, 2013, 02:31:54 pm

Well I am heading to Nacogdoches tomorrow morning early (220 mil from my home)

Al - given yesterday's weather in north Texas (we're near Argyle), hope your trip went OK.

Michelle

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #15 – May 23, 2013, 01:44:30 am

My trip was ok. On the way back i drove in heavy rain for about 100mil or so but it was ok. Well my experience at MOT was somewhat good. I liked the 94_FTGV_U225 and today i made a offer; i offered almost the full asking price and also i indicted that I will be spending 2 to 4K in their shop before I will take the delivery. Well all i asked was that they do few things but most of all they make sure the RV is road worthy and safe. When I got there the LP Generator was not working (they said it was working the day before). Engine would not start, they had to jump it. RV was clean, while parked and connected to power, two roof top AC's were working nice and cool. Front tires are one and two year old. Back (outer) tires were 7 years old. During the drive there was a constant clicking noise from/around the dash port. It drove nice shifted nice. Dash AC was not blowing cold enough, i figured since the roof top AC was not working while we were driving that the dash ac could not keep up. It was 77-80 degrees and we were hot. Anyway i told them that i will buy new tires & batteries, pay for their full inspection report (up to $800) and i will deal with the Bulkhead issue (if found any) I asked that they fix the Generator the clicking noise and inspect the LP tank and fix if any issues found with it & the dash AC. I also said more than likely i will take care of most if not all found issues with the inspection before i take delivery ... well not sure what i did wrong or asked to much of them to do but never the less they don't want to do much of anything "as is" and will not even take $100 of the asking 19.5K. So they want me to pay the full asking then also deal with everything else. I think because this is our first Class A purchase they think they can sell me the RV at full asking price & also make 4-5K in their shop. So I walked a way. I will not be going back to MOT. They wasted 12 hours of my time ( I live 230 mil a way and they knew that) not to mention fuel and day off wasted. What's interesting is that they have this on their web site: Why Buy Pre-Owned? | Blog.motorhomesoftexas.com "Avoidance of used units for fear of them being in bad shape can almost be totally excluded by buying from a reputable dealer. The dealer will be taking steps that insure that all major components function as designed. The "debugging" process of a new unit many times is more frustrating to the first owner than the issues found in a properly prepped and detailed pre-owned RV."
Well I should of known better not to go to dealer.

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #16 – May 23, 2013, 06:55:49 am

If they do not own the coach they do not put the money into it. They ate getting only a consignment fee. They put over 50k into my coach because they owned it. The owner may e the one who will not budge and that is typical especially on the cheaper coaches.

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #17 – May 23, 2013, 06:59:05 am

I looked up the coach and it s a consignment. The C in the number tells you that. So the price s set by the owner not MOT and the owner has to agree to the repairs. Noe sounded huge or costly and I would not agree if it was my coach just price it where it is.

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #18 – May 23, 2013, 07:01:00 am

My take on all this would be looking at a 20 year old coach and not expecting some issues with something or other. Wondering at what point the "Dealer" decides not to make it "new" again? Seems there is an end to making new after possible lack of care and maintence when there seems no end in sight ?

Just wondering
Dave M

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #19 – May 23, 2013, 08:20:06 am

They own it. They told me they Own it.

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #20 – May 23, 2013, 08:26:48 am

Propman, was the unit owned by MOT or on consignment. If the unitwas on consignment, MOT has to get the owner to approve of any price reductions and repairs, which will lower the net to MOT. If the ask is $20,000, there isn't much profit for MOT, weather owned by them or worse if on consignment (they have costs of doing business, and would charge 10% to sell that coach or $2,000. No dealership is perfect, but MOT is as good as they come, sorry you had an unsatisfactory experience.

BTW, I drive 1200 miles out of my way to get MOT and FOT and Xtreme to work on my coach, and wouldn't hesitate to buy or sell a coach through MOT or FOT.

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #21 – May 23, 2013, 08:47:42 am

They told me they own it. Maybe they are good or not it does not matter for me anymore. Perhaps the sales guy I had was not the best or i simply i don't know what i am doing. In any event they could of sell a RV then their shop also could make 2-4K on top of that before I even pul out of there, by doing that they were going to have me as a customer for a long time. A customer with a 20 year old RV, that could create more expenses and I could also upgrade with them in 2-3 years to 50-60k RV. I am not sure if it was my lose or theirs at this point. I'll find something to buy. One other think made me laugh. The shop manager came out he was very nice. When we talked about the clicking noise under the dash. He said that is a known issue you just have to let it click, it is what it is. He did say there maybe a way to fix it but even than it will click so be better of letting it click the way it is. That would drive my wife crazy going down the road.

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #22 – May 23, 2013, 09:05:31 am

Never the less if it was a consignment RV I would of approach it and deal with it completely different. They have no paper work no history on the RV, RV has no window coverings (outside). When I asked for carfax report sales guy said " I wouldn't know anything about that" I knew I could order that myself so at that time i just didn't worry about it.

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #23 – May 23, 2013, 11:56:35 am

I might suggest (if you have the option at this time) that instead of having MOT check the coach over on your dime, hire Brett Wolfe if he's available (moderator here, best inspector I know of, based in the Houston area). An independent inspection is in your best interest. Yes, MOT is a good outfit to deal with, but they can't serve two masters equally well when one is the seller and the other the buyer. It would be a conflict of interest.

Michelle

Re: Foretravel Quality and General Sturdiness

Reply #24 – May 23, 2013, 02:05:48 pm

Personally, I bought my coach from MOT and would not go anywhere else except FOT, MOT or Extreme for sales, service or repairs. MOT is the best dealer I have found....ethical, knowledge and does a great job. If anyone ever has a bad experience they should be sure to talk to Dave Robinson and he will fix it or explain the issues until you are satisfied. If MOT is poor then other dealers are "bottom feeders".

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