NADA Values vs. Real World

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NADA Values vs. Real World

June 25, 2012, 08:00:46 pm

So this topic is very interesting to me. This was briefly discussed in the "Winnebago" post and has been bantered around before. I'm curious if most of you subscribe to the NADA retail value when selling and purchasing a coach? I did a quick spread sheet compilation of just the FT's listed in our own classifieds over the last 6 months. Now this doesn't cover some of the special items folks have added to their coaches or make exceptions for those coaches that have been maintained better than others (i.e. - Brett Wolfe's U240). I just listed asking vs. NADA retail value (this can also change with what options if any you select, I selected none).

I understand where NADA is supposed to get their data from, but that doesn't mean its being done that way. There are many variables that could be happening here such as a very small sample size, repos that are in horrible condition, FT's lumped in with SOBs, etc. Anyway, from what's listed on here, most of you tend to believe an FT is worth much more than blue book value (or at least asking price is much more). That's also reflected in what I see outside of our Forum on Craigslist, EBAY, RV Oodle searches, RV Trader, and sites like MOT or FOT. In my experience, asking isn't usually 20% - 50% more than blue book value, but maybe that's different on RVs? Looking for comments, thoughts, etc. Ultimately, the value of a coach is what someone is willing to pay for it, but this data shows EVERYONE is way off (except the 2000 GV320, that's a steal!).

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #1 – June 25, 2012, 08:17:34 pm

Benjie,

My thoughts - NADA is supposed to be automobile dealers association pricing. Works great for the high volumes of cars and trucks and maybe mass market RVs that go through dealerships where you can generate a bell curve. Hard to fit the model of something like a FT or other smaller volume RV. Too many parameters to develop a statistically-significant model with reasonable sigma.

Michelle

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #2 – June 25, 2012, 08:37:38 pm

Condition,condition, condition, year, make and miles in that order is what I told Rv customers for many years.

Nada and Kelly are both nice for the banks but I you have a showroom new condition used older coach with medium miles I personally paid more many times.

And happy to do it.

Bob

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #3 – June 25, 2012, 09:02:01 pm

This seems to be a "hot topic" no matter what brand of RV. I'm not a member of NADA, nor have I purchased or sold anything based on NADA prices. It is one data point that both buyer and seller can see. It seems to me that it is up to the seller to justify a higher price, rather than the buyer justifying the lower price, when the seller wants more than NADA value. Also, NADA values seem to be somewhat localized, or at least that's what they would like us to believe. I just looked at a coach listed at PPL, and compared PPL's price with the NADA range for Houston and then put in my own ZIP code. I got the same price range either way. FWIW, on that particular coach PPL's asking price is $36,995 and NADA shows a price range of $37570-$45,270.

We have someone who is quite interested in buying our mpg. We haven't discussed price yet (in fact, he hasn't even been inside it yet), but since we hadn't planned on selling quite this soon I'm planning on asking NADA's high price and sticking pretty close to it. Of course, that price will include the weight-distributing hitch with sway bar and the transferable extended warranty.

Michelle, you are correct that NADA works better with vehicles that are traded enough that a reasonable sample can be figured. On the other hand, for those who are considering financing their coaches, I understand that the low NADA value is the value that they use.

I just looked up a coach that is at MOT that is on our list of possibles, a 96 U295. NADA lists it at $24,990-$30,110 and MOT is asking $47,500. Even taking 20% off of the asking price only brings it down to $38,000. Assume that the bank will loan 80% of low NADA price, $20,000, that means that the buyer will have to come up with $18,000 for a down payment. Even a loan of 100% of low NADA means coming up with $13,000.

The market for high-end motor homes seems rather soft at this point. Some people are deciding that their current coaches are just fine, thank you, and are not wanting to sell them. Others are forced to sell because of other conditions and are finding that they can't get what they paid for them. Still others realize that one doesn't buy a motor home, or any RV for that matter, as a financial investment. Rather, it is purchased as a life style investment, and the difference between what was paid for it and what it will sell for now is the monetary value of those enjoyable times.

When the day comes that we are actively looking for our full-time coach, yes, I'll want a bargain. Everyone does. If the market recovers, so that coaches are selling for a higher percentage of their new price than they are today, well, that's what we will have to deal with. On the other hand, that probably also means that our place will sell for more, too, so that we can afford to spend a bit more. If the market remains soft, it might mean that we'll be able to get a good deal. Either way, I'm not going to worry about it now. I'm too busy trying to figure out what we want and enjoying meeting lots of wonderful people.

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #4 – June 25, 2012, 09:11:59 pm

Quote from: kb0zke – June 25, 2012, 09:02:01 pm

This seems to be a "hot topic" no matter what brand of RV.

My Rv sales manager that just ran a lot at quartzite mentioned that for financing used rv's you add every single thing that is in the nada book for equipement for the wholesale and retail values. $7k or more in adds at wholesale.

As is - where is is wholesale. A fully reconditioned front line coach is closer to retail IMO.

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #5 – June 25, 2012, 09:13:35 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – June 25, 2012, 08:37:38 pm

Condition,condition, condition, year, make and miles in that order is what I told Rv customers for many years
Bob

This is actually what it's all about. Unfortunately, there are way too many uninformed folks wanting to buy a motorhome who don't know "jack" and the first thing they want to know is how low will you go to sell your M/H because they want to get a "good deal". To this type, you just have to tell them..."please go do some homework then see me about this unit I'm selling"
Peter

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #6 – June 25, 2012, 09:20:01 pm

Hmmm, this seems to be different than how I interpret NADA. The view manufacturer's note implies that you really don't get to add much of anything when specifying a FT coach...

"MOTORHOMES - 1995-current prices include aluminum wheels, awning, ice maker, CB radio, convection microwave, AM/FM cassette stereo, VCR, (2)TV's, generator, (2)roof A/C's, back up camera, leveling system and water heater. Add $3500 to m-2900 and m-3300 if equipped with roadmaster chassis."

If that's not the case, then I can see where adding options would increase things significantly.

Quote from: Caflashbob – June 25, 2012, 09:11:59 pm

My Rv sales manager that just ran a lot at quartzite mentioned that for financing used rv's you add every single thing that is in the nada book for equipement for the wholesale and retail values. $7k or more in adds at wholesale.

As is - where is is wholesale. A fully reconditioned front line coach is closer to retail IMO.

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #7 – June 25, 2012, 09:24:28 pm

Quote from: Peter & Beth – June 25, 2012, 09:13:35 pm

This is actually what it's all about. Unfortunately, there are way too many uninformed folks wanting to buy a motorhome who don't know "jack" and the first thing they want to know is how low will you go to sell your M/H beacuse they want to get a "good deal".

Good points. I never sold price just the quality. Price was always there just not first.

Need to know what you are selling.

I had a customer once look at my foretravels in Traveland where the dealers were next to each other and he went down the road and bought a bigger sun crest for much less money as he told me they were all the same. Hmmmmmm

A month later my DW were headed out to the desert to go dirt biking and the traffic was horrendous. What the heck. Finally get to the problem and I am in the inside lane and can see this giant motorhome in the lane in two pieces. Back ripped off. Wow.

As I pull up to the wreckage I see my guy. He notices the grand villa and sees me as I pull up.

I opened the window and said loudly " you did get a better deal, you got two for one"

I am sure if he was armed I would have been in trouble. My buddies made a $27k profit on him they told me that day.

True fun story.

Old days in the 80's in the Rv biz.

I got my motorcade book and no one but dick and sue Ellen wells is in the book I know.

Red loquaglia is another.

What hspoened. Everyone got old? Not me...

Bob

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #8 – June 25, 2012, 09:29:54 pm

Quote from: Peter & Beth – June 25, 2012, 09:13:35 pm

This is actually what it's all about. Unfortunately, there are way too many uninformed folks wanting to buy a motorhome who don't know "jack" and the first thing they want to know is how low will you go to sell your M/H because they want to get a "good deal". To this type, you just have to tell them..."please go do some homework then see me about this unit I'm selling"
Peter

Totally agree. The more mechanical inspections I do, the less I think NADA has much to do with VALUE/WORTH of an older coach.

Two days ago, I ran into a couple near our home who just bought an early 1990's U280. Rear bulkhead was out of it, someone had put cheap linoleum on the floor, wrapping it over stair well, etc. They though they got a great deal because they didn't pay much for it. Sorry, they would have been miles ahead to spend twice that amount for a clean, well-cared for coach.

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #9 – June 25, 2012, 09:40:05 pm

Just another idea from someone who has been fulltiming for 8 years (6- airstream. 2- Foretravel). My Foretravel experience doesn't make me an expert but I have been living the dream of many of my generation. The idea of waiting for a coach purchased by Santa Claus and saved for just you is more like winning a lottery than a purchase. I think we will all agree that a Foretravel, while not being perfect is a great way to live and see this great country! The NADA will be what you get with an insurance claim unlike the price payed for your home on wheels. Just a thought from my grandfather (If you wait for perfection you may miss your dream!). Just remember, pay the price you think is fair but be careful of waiting for Santa Claus (You may miss your dream!). On the road and living my dream!

Josh

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #10 – June 25, 2012, 09:56:17 pm

Exactly, Josh! I've learned that I need to find a reasonable range of prices for whatever I'm wanting to buy. If something is priced too low I avoid it UNLESS I know why it is priced so low. As Bob said, the lowest price isn't always the cheapest. I like a bargain as well as anyone, but I want to make sure that the "bargain" really is a good deal.

There are times when someone will sell a coach for less than they could get on the open market because they want to help someone else out. That's a good deal. There are coaches for sale at lower prices because the owners have suffered financial reverses and need to get at least some money back. Those may or may not be good deals. There are coaches for sale that haven't even been started in several years, no one in the family wants the coach, so it is listed on eBay with no reserve. Unless the buyer is a great mechanic with lots of patience, those probably aren't good deals.

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #11 – June 26, 2012, 01:36:16 am

I don't know about other banks but USAA takes the NADA price and adds everything (which, with a Foretravel is pretty much everything on the NADA option list) to establish value. It does add up, close to 10K as I recall when I was checking a coach for a family member.

Sometimes those deals aren't deals. The Monaco my brother stole now has enough invested in it to have purchased him a pretty nice Foretravel. Even fixed up it doesn't begin to compare, things like inverters, monitors, battery banks, retarder plus many hours of talented owner work which are worth exactly zip.

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #12 – June 26, 2012, 02:04:10 am

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – June 26, 2012, 01:36:16 am

I don't know about other banks but USAA takes the NADA price and adds everything (which, with a Foretravel is pretty much everything on the NADA option list) to establish value. It does add up, close to 10K as I recall when I was checking a coach for a family member.

I took the public tour at monaco back then versus a VIP tour I could have had as the executives were all friends of mine. The tour guide noticed my face as I watched how the coach was assembled and off the side said you seem to know about these. I grinned and said unfortunately yes I did.

Page Robertson caught me as I was leaving coburn and asked me what I thought. He was the national sales manager. I told him you will make a lot of money on those.

Look down the sides of the later ones. Looks like waves in the ocean. Some mid door early 90's were actually well made although. The ones with the stripes starting at the bottom of the sides in front and then going parallel to the ground as they went back to the rear.

Cobby made heavily welded structures. Wonder how desireable older dynasty and sigs are now versus country coaches and foretravels? And how well they held up?

Bob

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #13 – June 26, 2012, 09:53:42 am

I sold a 2008 Phaeton in May of 2010 and when I was trying to determine a selling price I just looked around and made mine the best deal in the Southeast. I sold it for $142K with everything attached, i.e. pressure pro system, tow bar, Brake Buddy, chairs, grill, etc. In 5 days I had a buyer, and about 30 days after that we closed. I also had 8 people on a waiting list in case the deal fell through. Even today people are trying to sell Tiffins for MORE ( or close to it) than I sold mine 2 years ago.

Two years later, we decided to get another RV (used this time) and a Tiffin was my 1st choice because I was familiar with them. Unfortunately, Tiffin sellers were asking WAY too much (IMO) for their units so I started browsing. I accidently stumbled across this Foretravel listed for sale on the Escapee forum by Geoorge Stoltz and I also had been following George's blog so I knew his RV had been well taken care of... but I had never seen a Foretravel and thought that an older unit with one slide would be too small for us compared to a SOB with 4 slides. I talked to George about this and he found a 2000 U320 for sale in Orlando, (he was in Maine) so we drove down to take a look at it. The DW fell in love with the floor plan right away, and we knew that we would have to do a few mods to make the RV fit US. Some of the selling points for ME were the 450HP Cummins, the retarder, the 5' wide slide and the one slide. Kathy loved the paint job

So - I started looking at how much Foretravels were selling for (new ones were out of my price range!) and after seeing pictures of "Moose" and knowing that this unit had new seats, new tires, new inverter, MCD shades, a $24K paint job, and a LOT of other things done I made an offer and George accepted

I think I got a very good deal.

I went to USAA and asked if I could get any financing (interest for a tax deduction) on a 2000 RV and they said I could get $100K. That was a suprise!

So here we sit today in Hot Springs, AR and the ALL time heat record for the month of June was shattered. It was 106! No shade available. The 2 AC's were able to keep us comfy and had we been in a SOB with four slides that had the typical rubber gaskets, I don't think 2 AC's would have cut it. My experience in the desert in June of 2009 tells me that. Moose is one air tight machine

What a person is willing to pay for anything just "depends." These Foretravels hold their value because they're just so well made IMO. That's also why people pump money into them to fix them instead of buying a newer SOB.

Well, we're off to Branson in 5 more days, staying a week and then making a dash for the cool state of MI. South Haven for 2 weeks and then Petoskey for a month. Across the MI UP, down the WI side and back home in Sept/Oct. Sweet. Next year we leave earlier to beat the heat! HA!

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #14 – June 26, 2012, 10:04:48 am

Quote from: Benjie Zeller – June 25, 2012, 08:00:46 pm

Ultimately, the value of a coach is what someone is willing to pay for it, but this data shows EVERYONE is way off (except the 2000 GV320, that's a steal!).

I agree,
As I understand it, back in late 50's, early 60's housing values rapidly increased due to availability of 10 year, then 20-30 year rates financing. Available financing moves values of all products over time. Increased scrutiny of potential coach buyers ability to repay loans, and associated mandated guidelines in the banking industry has hampered the sell of many big ticket items last several years....
Now for those in decent financial shape its a time of opportunity in many ways.

When I approached my bank about financing the 2000 GV mentioned above, I was offered up to $110,000 from the bank manager right off. Money is available, abundantly so. The formula that qualifies an individual is just so much more stringent now.

The above mentioned 2000 GV320 was purchased by my wife and I at a great price...including new tires, new door window, and all work done, we would still profit $36,000 , if sold at $92,000.

After reading above comments, I would have been better off asking more money if serious about selling

........ I would still feel guilty making a 65% profit at 92,000......Well for a short while anyway.

David

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #15 – June 26, 2012, 10:36:44 am

I strongly agree with Michelle. NADA shouldn't even list motorhomes because they don't have the data base to make valid value judgments. Take a look at the difference in auto values between NADA, Edmunds and Kelly Blue book. The dealers never use any of the three as a basis for auto values.

Having been a banker in a previous life I can tell you that NADA is a at best guide point. Yes there are more stringent guidelines for making loans today but it all comes down to whether the bank/banker wants to make the loan or not. If it is a personal banker, someone you know, they can find grounds for making a loan way beyond the NADA listed price. You may have to give them some creative ideas for additional value but it can be done.

I personally think NADA should not even list used motorhomes, boats or motorcycles since most of these items are sold privately and there is no legitimate data base for NADA to set values.

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #16 – June 26, 2012, 11:34:14 am

There are simple lessons in these discussions that could be narrowed to a couple of simple "rules" and they have been discussed before in other threads. I cannot do that with this phone but think the themes are consistent about NADA, quality, FT, and how to view option values, that paying less may cost you much more, plus if see the one you
really want that will guide what you will pay at times.

The dealers that turn their used inventory must know how to value coaches, that might be one way to research "good deals".

I agree with another of you, Peter and similar comments align with what I have seen and they are the real experts in this topic.

I am an advocate of getting a third party to
inspect a coach and help novice buyers regardless of the amount of research the novice has done. I may later address personal experience as to why I feel that important.

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #17 – June 26, 2012, 12:19:50 pm

I feel buying a RV, Boat or airplane, you just have to know upfront, you will loose money if your going to love and enjoy the unit.
I plan on running my coach until it or I become too outdated to enjoy it, then leave it for the DW and her next OM to figure it out. Resale is not in the thought process. Am not saving anything for the next OM.

NADA is a comic book and useless, ball park at best, if you buy it for profit, I wish you luck and maybe you should be a used car salesman with the gift of BS.
FWIW & Cheers

Dave M

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #18 – June 26, 2012, 12:38:43 pm

I have been subscribing to Nada books for 5 yrs, and use it for purely pleasure interests although it was useful in securing me a good deal on my coaches.
I have asked a few RV Dealers close to our home area ( we have one of the highest populations of RV's per household here in the South Okanagan compared to anywere Iv'e seen--about 1 in 4) so there are a lot of units selling etc) and all use it as a guide but discount Nada's values by 10% when they are buying (modified) but when sellling bump up the prices to well above what the same unit would be on sale for in the US. We pay a LOT more than most of you do down south, that is why I have bought both my FTs in USA and can stay ahead of the game. I have included a scan of the inside pages to hopefully give you an idea of how they come to their figures.
John H

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #19 – June 26, 2012, 04:03:56 pm

Quote from: John Haygarth – June 26, 2012, 12:38:43 pm

I have asked a few RV Dealers close to our home area ( we have one of the highest populations of RV's per household here in the South Okanagan compared to anywere Iv'e seen--about 1 in 4)
John H

People must be pretty desperate to clear out when they are able, eh?

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #20 – June 26, 2012, 05:07:59 pm

When I bought my FT I should have had a third knowledgeable party do an inspection/walkthrough. I feel certain if I had followed that path I would have a different coach. I was aware of some issues with the coach that I was willing to deal with. However, I am now having extensive engine work done, new exhaust manifold, new gaskets in areas that previous owners used silicone to "plug" leaks. The jury is out as to whether or not I will need a new cylinder head. The monkeys that massacred the Cummins engine in this coach should be castrated. There are many more issues that are too numerous to list. In addition I have a major front bulkhead failure to deal with when the engine work is complete. Did I buy it at a good price? The answer is yes, however by the time I finish bringing the coach up to a usable standard I will have more invested in the coach than I would have had I purchased a higher priced coach. Live and learn.

Roland

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #21 – June 26, 2012, 05:46:16 pm

There is a fact called luck, I paid top price for my 2001 36' 320 about 4 years ago, and I received a top condition coach, had been garaged since new, no issues of structure, body, suspension, engine, tansmission, brakes. Have installed new DC motor on the slide pump, DC vac pump. From there I have spent money on updates such as floor, blinds, TV's, Xtreme Full body paint including roof, all lights are the latest design & LED where possible, new fog lights, engine door upgrade, front Armor Coat and more I guess, still not done with mods from Xtreme & Rance.
Very happy with all aspects of the coach, it is my man cave/castle, so cost is not my biggest concern.
Feel everyone has to do what makes them happy.
I went thru the idea of trading up, but found I would not be as happy with a newer nor bigger coach. Sure would not have the zip this one does.
In the real world, Enjoy what you have.
Cheers
Dave M

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #22 – June 26, 2012, 05:56:25 pm

Geez I hope I wasn't misunderstood. We are happy with our coach. We were looking to do some interior upgrades but that will have to wait until we take care of the essentials. The coach handles like a dream. We wanted a coach that was quality built and with no slides. That narrowed the field quite a bit. I believe we would have done better had I joined the forum and made inquires before we purchased. Not the first error I have made in my lifetime and feel certain it won't be the last. I'm not complaining....just sayin'.

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #23 – June 26, 2012, 06:57:47 pm

Chuck, not sure what you meant, but here, people love to get out into the beautiful country and province we live in, so I guess having an RV allows that. Plus in the winter it is nice to get to warmer weather, even though it is not as bad here as maybe eastern states at that time.
John H

Re: NADA Values vs. Real World

Reply #24 – June 26, 2012, 07:54:58 pm

John, it was my pitiful attempt at a bit of humor, targeting Canadians who travel. A lot. South, into the less civilized hinterlands.

Chuck

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