Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Topic: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire (Read 2082 times) previous topic - next topic

Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

September 30, 2012, 08:32:10 pm

Folks, last night a friend had his coach go up in flames from his Norcold refrigerator. He had the recalls and the recalls on the recalls implemented. The bottom line- if you have one of these- its not "if" but when it will incinerate your coach. Fortunately, his smoke alarm worked and he and his dog, wallet, and him standing outside in his underware survived. Also fortunate- his wife was at another location. The coach burned from kitchen forward.

I went out and checked my smoke detector. It didn't work. I'll be replacing that and adding another- even though I have a Dometic. When that Dometic goes out, a Whirlpool residential will go in its place. This is not an issue to be taken lightly. Lots of documentation on this thru-out the forums.

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #1 – September 30, 2012, 08:35:25 pm

And not just on this forum. I'm with Ernie on this one - replacing the refrigerator with a residential one is first on our list of upgrades for whatever Foretravel we end up with.

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #2 – September 30, 2012, 10:16:15 pm

I know I am beating the drum again but all RV fridge installations are death traps in my opinion. A day with $40 worth of Hardy Backerboard can make any RV fridge installation safe. I would never think about leaving a pet or family member alone in a motorhome with a RV refrigerator turned on. It's Russian roulette and not if but only a matter of time until it happens.

I have seen a lot of fatalities in my firefighting career so I don't speak lightly about this subject. Burns are worse than you can imagine.

Pierce

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #3 – September 30, 2012, 11:25:37 pm

I could search for the posts but perhaps another run through of what can be done to make them safe or safer would be appreciated.

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #4 – September 30, 2012, 11:52:10 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – September 30, 2012, 10:16:15 pm

I know I am beating the drum again but all RV fridge installations are death traps in my opinion. A day with $40 worth of Hardy Backerboard can make any RV fridge installation safe.

Please elaborate on how this can be done?

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #5 – October 01, 2012, 12:11:59 am

Dwayne,

OK, here is my Picasa album with four photos of the U300 fridge enclosure modifications: Google+

I went to Home Depot and bought 4 or 5 1/4" sheets of Hardie Backerboard. Also bought a tube of urethane sealant plus drywall screws, a sharp box cutter type tool to scribe it and then bend it until it breaks along the scribed line. A few wire clamps to organize the wires also comes in handy.

Never use a table saw as the Hardie board is a fiber cement product and will make a ton of nasty dust. Simple scribing along a straight edge and then bending is an excellent way to make the correct sized panels. I covered every possible area with the board leaving only the outside fiberglass deflector original. The OEM wiring was like a sea of snakes so I neatened it up a bit. I also had a bit of dry rot around the outside door so I installed several new wood supports. The bottom floor was also a bit weak so I reinforced it before installing the backerboard. The two wooden strips shown were to center the fridge in the opening. It took me two days to do the whole thing but that included several hours replacing the wood around the outside access door and the floor as well as organizing the wiring.

Sure, an automatic fire extinguisher could have been installed but it could fail to work correctly. The cement board insures that during a fire of 30 to 60 seconds, any combustible materials are isolated from the heat and flame.

The amount of ammonia in the system is not great but with lint, rodent nests, and the luan wood siding, a fire of more than a few seconds could spread to the thin luan.

There are almost always RVs on ebay that have suffered refrigerator fires. The toxic smoke from the fire is usually the killer here with direct flame to skin contact the exception.

If anyone thinks this happens to the "other guy", here are photos of RV reefer fires in many different brands of RVs. Makes a believer out of the viewer: RV Appraisals & Investigations of America

Pierce

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #6 – October 01, 2012, 12:39:11 am

I should have added that just before we bought our U300, the Dometic fridge failed with a leak of ammonia into the vehicle interior while it was occupied. The owner immediately smelled it and got out OK. It did not catch fire. I installed a new Norcold (not a recalled model) after making the above modifications to the enclosure. Somewhere around 20 years seems to be the average lifespan for the absorption refrigerators.

Pierce

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #7 – October 01, 2012, 02:38:39 am

Here's what MY Foretravel looked like after a refrigerator fire.
You can't see the 5'X6' hole in the roof over the refrigerator area. You also can't see the smoke damage and the melted ceiling insulation in the entire middle of the coach and part of the Bathroom. You also can't see the completely melted Fantastic Fan assembly in the Bathroom, or the melted Power Watch monitors across from the refrigerator, or the charred walnut top door to the pantry across from the refrigerator. And only I know about the time and aggravation, not to mention MONEY, that has gone into the coach to bring it back.
There is NO good reason to EVER install a RV/ammonia type refrigeration system in ANYTHING!

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #8 – October 01, 2012, 11:05:07 am

Quote from: Lon and Cheryl – October 01, 2012, 02:38:39 am

Here's what MY Foretravel looked like after a refrigerator fire.

Yikes! The refrigerator upgrade has been on my do-list for a while... but I think I'll bump it up a few notches.

Craig

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #9 – October 01, 2012, 05:24:47 pm

Quote

Pierce wrote: "Somewhere around 20 years seems to be the average lifespan for the absorption refrigerators."

My experience has been ten to fifteen years before absorption cooling units fail. My 1996 fridge failed in January at circa 16 years. Very few last 20 years and I know of a rebuilt double coil cooling unit which failed in about one year (yes one year). The double coil units in our Foretravels are paricularly difficult to clean and often have limited life when they are rebuilt. I paid more money to replaced with a completely new cooling unit.

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #10 – October 01, 2012, 07:22:00 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – October 01, 2012, 12:39:11 am

I should have added that just before we bought our U300, the Dometic fridge failed with a leak of ammonia into the vehicle interior while it was occupied. The owner immediately smelled it and got out OK. It did not catch fire. I installed a new Norcold (not a recalled model) after making the above modifications to the enclosure. Somewhere around 20 years seems to be the average lifespan for the absorption refrigerators.

Pierce

The cooling unit on our Dometic refrigerator failed in November, 2011. The coach is a 1997 model. It looked like the refrigerator was original equipment. To the best of my knowledge, the refrigerator stayed on most of the time from 1997 to 2011. It would have been running on electricity most of the time.

The failure occurred while we were driving and the refrigerator was operating on propane. We smelled ammonia inside the coach a couple of times over the period of about one hour. The odor was faint and I dismissed it as an external source the first time I noticed it. The failure appeared to be a rupture of the sealed cooling unit near the propane flame and electric heating element. There was a yellow residue in the area. Fortunately, there was no fire, damage, or personal injury.

I kept the refrigerator and replaced the cooling unit with a new one from RV Cooling Unit Warehouse LLC Home Page.

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #11 – October 01, 2012, 07:28:19 pm

Wyatt,

Your math is better than mine. We picked ours up in 2009 and the reefer failed before that so figuring 2008 and a 1993 model, that's about 15 years. Guess I need a math 101 review. Guess it's California crow tonight.

Pierce

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #12 – October 01, 2012, 09:58:31 pm

Our first TT had a refer fire - fortunately the fire was caught just after it had started so the damage was to just the refer and the surround. Insurance took care of everything including a new model Dometic. Even though we currently have a gas-electric refer I can assure you that I will never buy another - one fire is one too many.

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #13 – October 01, 2012, 10:00:13 pm

Fifteen year lifespan means I'm living on borrowed time. The thing is my refrigerator works perfectly, rock hard ice in the freezer and perfect refrig temps on the other side, never run it above level 3 even in the broiling Texas heat. So, the question I have is, does anyone know what the failure mode is? Do the lines corrode from the outside and fail, is vibration and metal fatigue an issue? Is there a particular area in the sealed system that bears inspection, any way to determine if failure is imminent?

I truly hate the thought of giving up the propane operation but I hate the thought of burning the coach, and possibly me and mine more. If the fifteen year lifespan is a given then I have a decision to make...new cooling unit or solar panels, more batteries and a domestic unit. On that subject, has anyone installed an inverter based compressor type unit? Variable compressor speed based on load rather than full on then off like the majority of compressor type refrigs. High efficiency.

Chuck

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #14 – October 01, 2012, 10:35:23 pm

Its my understanding that most refrigerator fires are caused by rusting penetrating the cooling coils allow the ammonia to leak and be ignited by the gas burner. If so, frequent inspection of the coils is a must.

Does anyone else know of an RV refrigerator fire caused by another reason?

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #15 – October 01, 2012, 10:46:44 pm

Quote

I truly hate the thought of giving up the propane operation but I hate the thought of burning the coach, and possibly me and mine more. If the fifteen year lifespan is a given then I have a decision to make..

My 1997 U295 36ft got a new Dometic 4 years ago in Nac by MOT after the original Dometic leaked ammonia. The new Dometic didn't work that well.

best, paul

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #16 – October 01, 2012, 10:47:14 pm

On my 88, there was strong ammonia smell in refrigerator, rust was from outside in, could not be inspected as it was on part of coils buried in unit. I was told rust related to cycles between usage and moisture trapped. For that reason I have mine plugged in and run year around on electric, leave on gas the few nights not plugged in. Will go to residential when this unit fails

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #17 – October 01, 2012, 10:55:40 pm

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #18 – October 01, 2012, 10:59:05 pm

Mine is usually only on propane while driving. All other times on electric. I think I will get some blue ice and put it in the fridge when starting out and use the thing like a cooler until I get where I'm going.

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #19 – October 01, 2012, 11:24:28 pm

Quote from: Paul Smith – October 01, 2012, 10:55:40 pm

I was not able to get mine to work on electric while driving. Does it take running the generator?

best, paul

Ours, a Dometic 2-way, operates on electric only when the generator is running or we are connected to shore power. It does requires 12VDC for control circuits whether operating on electric or gas. The refrigerator continues to receive 12VDC from the house batteries even when the 12VDC house "master" switch near the entry door is in the "off" position.

When we drive, or park without hookups, the refrigerator operates on propane.

When filling the propane tank, it is prudent (and required by safety rules) to turn off the refrigerator at the front panel of the refrigerator.

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #20 – October 02, 2012, 01:11:57 am

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – October 01, 2012, 10:00:13 pm

On that subject, has anyone installed an inverter based compressor type unit? Variable compressor speed based on load rather than full on then off like the majority of compressor type refrigs. High efficiency.

Chuck

I know that there are many SOB motorhomes that have been converted to household type 120v electric 120v electric refrigerator w/ice & water in door w/ice & water in door and those who converted to them are apparently quite happy. They have even found them more than adequate for boondocking. And Tiffin is offering residential refrigerator in new models and Foretravel is in the new IH45.

But don't know of any using a Variable compressor speed based on load. They are well enough insulated that they don't appear to need that.

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #21 – October 02, 2012, 01:44:41 am

Quote

Ours, a Dometic 2-way, operates on electric only when the generator is running or we are connected to shore power.

Why is this? With the engine running, and the inverter on, the refrigerator should be able to get AC.

best, paul

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #22 – October 02, 2012, 03:52:40 am

The Bosch refrigerator I installed has no problem running on the inverter when sitting or when the Motorhome is being driven with the alternator powering the inverter. It draws a surprisingly light load. You can also set the temp for the freezer and the refrigerator to a higher temp when you are driving or boon-docking so the compressor does not cycle as much. The ice maker can also be turned off easily to reduce power consumption if that is a issue.

The fire my coach incurred was NOT from a ammonia leak but was from a mouse building a nest in the refrigerator vent near the gas flame.

The fire apparently climbed directly up the vent tube through the roof. I think this is the natural flame path for a refrigerator fire with the flame seeking the fastest path to air. I'm not sure how much a cement backer board enclosure would protect from a flame path straight to the roof and then spilling out from the top of the refrigerator compartment and spreading out across the inside roof seeking oxygen at the fan above the cook-top and the vent fan in the bathroom, all very close to the refrigerator.

These details were reported to me by the previous owner who owned the coach when the fire occurred.

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #23 – October 02, 2012, 07:37:44 am

Quote from: Tim Fiedler – October 01, 2012, 10:47:14 pm

On my 88, there was strong ammonia smell in refrigerator, rust was from outside in, could not be inspected as it was on part of coils buried in unit. I was told rust related to cycles between usage and moisture trapped.

Well shoot. That would seem to end the possibility of inspecting and maintaining to prevent corrosion. All in all though, it's given quite a few years of good service.

Quote from: PatC – October 02, 2012, 01:11:57 am

But don't know of any using a Variable compressor speed based on load. They are well enough insulated that they don't appear to need that.

The inverter scheme is about improving efficiency (lower electrical usage) rather than capacity. Instead of the compressor starting up under full load with a high amperage start, the speed of the compressor is infinitely variable depending on load. Kind of like the little EU 1000 Honda generator which, when the load is light will run at a low speed as compared to the standard gas generator which runs full bore engine speed regardless of load. I see these units are sold overseas and would seem to be a natural for solar powered ops.

Interestingly enough, inverter based air conditioners are readily available. I expect this will be the next evolution in RV air conditioning if there is ever any improvement over the old standard. One of these units with a high SEER rating could make running on batteries feasible.

Chuck

Re: Serious Issue - Fridge Fire

Reply #24 – October 02, 2012, 08:16:33 am

Quote from: Paul Smith – October 02, 2012, 01:44:41 am

Why is this? With the engine running, and the inverter on, the refrigerator should be able to get AC.

best, paul

As long as the breaker for the refrigerator outlet is wired in the inverter circuit it should work on electric when the inverter is on. My guess is the refrigerator outlet is not wired into the inverter circuit.

Roland

Roland

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