Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

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Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #100 – November 20, 2012, 02:22:14 pm

Perfect, Brett!

That's what I needed to know. A wipe-down with degreaser and scotch-brite scuffing before paint, it is.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #101 – November 20, 2012, 08:25:09 pm

Hi Mike, Two things that I picked out of your last post, 1) Make sure your pre-fill the fuel filters with good #2 diesel, they could air lock and your system will not prime . 2) I have always been advised to install any battery disconnect on the "Ground side" of the system. when the ground is broken there is no chance of a accidental short. Others may have a different opinion.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #102 – November 21, 2012, 06:58:37 am

I swear by Simple Green for cleaning mechanicals.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #103 – November 21, 2012, 08:03:03 am

Not exactly "post specific" but I noticed MOT has a 95 with the Cat 3176 that is very similar to yours. Might be worth a peek for anyone in the market.

Dean

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #104 – November 21, 2012, 09:15:25 am

Quote from: geomm – November 20, 2012, 01:34:32 pm

I know that some may think I'm approaching this in too conservative of a fashion. However -- because I don't know how long it sat since the last running of the mechanical systems, I'm going slow. It could have been two years, or it could have been five years. The last Ad I saw online where John (the p.o.) was trying to sell it -- had a picture in front of a house with the toad attached, and that Ad was dated 2007.

I do have a question related to power-washing the CAT. It's my intention to get it clean (lots of twigs, and brown evergreen branches, dirt, etc all over it) -- and first wrap plastic around the wiring looms that run along the box steel sections so not to get water into any connectors there -- but -- what about the other parts of the CAT. Is it safe to get down into the nooks and crannies with a high-pressure nozzle without screwing up something?. I want to get it clean, and then get some CAT-yellow paint to touch it up. And I was thinking of using some scotch-brite on the steel tubes from the turbo and charge-cooler, as the silver has corrosion showing through in a lot of places -- and spraying them with an aluminized silver paint. Surprising -- considering the light usage, but the ebb and flow of the marine-layer air out here in SoCal can do a lot of damage to steel surfaces that just sit -- if you are within about 5 miles of the actual coastline.

Safe motoring to all,

Michael McLaughlin

Too conservative, I don't think so. You are going to fit in just fine here.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #105 – November 21, 2012, 09:35:59 am

Micheal, Its great to see someone doing things the RIGHT way in spite of the extra cost in time and effort that it may cost. I have heard too many stories of folks who bought a MH, GASSED it up and ALMOST made it home.
When you get it up and running you will know for sure what you have and what you need to work on.
Good luck with the project and please keep us up to date, its good information and at times projects like yours can really be entertaining.

Gary B

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #106 – November 22, 2012, 12:47:55 am

Anyone want to play "Stump the Band"?-- that is the "Foretravel Band". As you know, the progress to revive the beast had been going fairly smooth. Until today. I'm scratching my head over today's effort, and so I'll separate the items, so hopefully some of you have seen one (or more) of these and have some advice:

1.) Today I reconnected all of the batteries and fired up the gen-set and then flipped the boost switch on to charge both banks, BUT -- for the first time started the generator from the dash and not at the actual panel on the Power Tech. It started fine -- but showed no A.C. output on the panel above the door. Then -- when I shut it down, it responded from the dash rocker and shut down -- but the fuel pump continued to run. Now -- strange enough, later in the afternoon -- repeating this process, but starting it from the control panel on the unit -- it did light up the above-door panel -- showing proper polarity and the needle showing 115 volts A.C. -- however, shutting it down from that panel still resulted in the fuel pump continuing to run.

Now -- the only change since I first got the gen-set to fire up and run smooth on the (then) questionable fuel -- is that for the first time today, I used the key in the ignition switch and powered up the electrical by turning the switch to the on position. That ignition switch is a new one fitted by somebody prior, as the original key vanished along with the first-owners son that inherited the Coach. Which leads me to #2.

2.) Turning the ign key on lit up the allison panel, showing the trans in neutral. It also started a "chime" sound, and lit-up lights saying "air pressure", "parking brake", and "check transmission". The CRT did not come on for the Audit system (no matter what position I put the rocker switch in - or rotated the brightness pot). But here's the kicker -- when I would turn the key to the off position and remove it -- all remained the same. I could not turn everything off with the key. Rotating the key to the start position would crank over the Cat, and it would build quickly to 40 psi on the dash gage -- just on the starter. The only way I was able to make everything turn off with the key was AFTER the gen-set suddenly decided to display A.C. output on the meter above the door, and after I powered down the gen-set via it's panel. Then-- turning the key off would make all lights extinguish as it should. I did notice loose screws around the perimeter of the dash facia panels, they being loose -- as if someone has been in there before. I'm hoping there is not some kind of mother-board back there that is flaky -- and causing all of this. I'm hoping that there are some wiring issues, or bad relay's -- or something. Easier to deal with than a PCB with micro-cracks in the traces.

3.) I did think it strange a few days ago that with the gen-set running I could activate all functions of the HWH leveling system -- without the key being in the on position (not possible according to the manual). Well - today, it did not react that way, and in fact -- when I was finally able to get the HWH system to even react and power-up with the key in the "on" position, it showed the "travel" light on, even though the rear bags are completely deflated. Hmm....

so..to pause....the inserting of the key and turning it to the on position -- changed everything since my last visit. I'm strongly suspecting some wiring issues behind the dash. Anyone have a clue what to look for?

and now onto #4

4.) I've read the owners manual, and the second volume for the appliances, hardware, etc. And when it comes to priming the CAT, it is very specific. It says to rotate the knob 1/4 turn, the pumping will be difficult at first, then get easier -- and then finally harder again when you have all the air out of the system. Fine-- except for what I encountered today. First -- what I've identified as the primary filter -- resides above the inboard-end of my chassis battery bank. It is a red-colored Baldwin canister with a knob on the bottom for drainage, and when I opened that -- clean diesel ran into the plastic cup I caught it with. Moving on-- I'm looking for the secondary as described --and find what must be it -- attached to the right side (viewing from the back) of the engine ( and only possible to reach from the bedroom with the bed platform up). It is CAT yellow, with a yellow CAT filter below it, and it does have a knurled knob with instructions as to which way to loosen and tighten it. Problem is -- there is no pump function on this knob. If you continue to turn it in the CCW direction, it comes out in your hand as an assembly -- with a one-way drive cog on the bottom of it -- only about 2 inches long. I expected to loosen it, and have a knob with a shaft that would pop-up, and you would start the priming description as laid out in the manual. I looked down the bore, and did not see anything. Is it possible that the P.O. removed the pump portion for some reason.

and then, #5

5.) Not able to find any kind of priming mechanism as called out, anywhere I poked around, under/over/left side/right side -- I then looked at the sticker on the top of the CAT (couldn't read the metal plate around the edge to the vertical, because of corrosion -- I'll have to steel wool it, and get a magnifying glass down there )-- and it said 3176, with a manufactured date of 1993. What's up with that? This is a 1995 model year Coach. Okay - built in 1994, but. I expected to see a designation of "3176B"

Is it possible the son roasted the original powerplant and got taken to the cleaners with an older transplant?

So... scratching my head, but I really dig my heels in with a challenge set like this. You see -- I won't let a machine beat me (one never has), and I can be extremely tenacious to the point of obsession -- until I prevail. I knew this was going to be a difficult undertaking.

I was lulled into a confidence because it was going so smooth.

Here's hoping some of you can make it a little less painless.

Oh! -- maybe another clue. At my last visit, with the gen-set running, there was a loud "pop" sound from the back of the Coach at one point, kinda like the report from a small caliber hand-gun. I thought it was maybe a rear air-bag trying to seat, as I had the HWH in leveling mode at the time. But maybe it was something else, something electrical going off in failure.

A happy Thanksgiving wish to all, and safe motoring,

Michael

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #107 – November 22, 2012, 07:29:59 am

Michael, 1) Were you also connected to "shore" power? Are you aware that your dash board lifts up to access behind the face of the dash? Fuel pump running could be a stuck relay. other voltage (115 A/C) could be transfer switch @ the foot of the bed. Did you have 115 A/C when the meter was not reading any voltage? Ignition key may be miss-wired, may not be same as original equipment.
2)Miss wired - all could be associated with the replacement of the ignition key
3)Miss wired - all could be associated with the replacement of the ignition key
4)The fuel filter primer pump on my "CAT" truck engine had that same knurled knob, the directions are very specific; rotate 1/4 turn, that pump shaft is very tight and the first un-seating of the plunger is difficult, and awkward, I believe that by continuing to rotate the knob you un-screwed it from the shaft/plunger. Try again.....
Nothing sounds to serious just time consuming, you will need the wiring schematic for your coach and it should be available from Foretravel...

Good Luck.... You will certainly know your "Coach" when you get it on the road !!!!!!!

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #108 – November 22, 2012, 07:53:02 am

Michael,

For the real answer on your engine, call the Caterpillar RV Hotline with your engine serial number: 877 777-3126.

The Caterpillar primer pump, on the Caterpillar-supplied secondary fuel filter IS the knurl nut. Counter-clockwise enough so that you can move it IN-OUT....

With it sitting as long as it has, the gaskets on the pump may be bad.

All my experience with the pump is that it is a little hard for the first couple of strokes as the gaskets "clear themselves" of the pump wall and lube with diesel. Then VERY easy until all the air is purged. Then within a couple of strokes, from easy to very hard as air is replaced by fuel (fuel being non-compressible).

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #109 – November 22, 2012, 08:33:56 am

Michael, I'll let others speak to the CAT issues.
The loud POP you heard may not be abnormal, on mine if it has been in storage with the bags deflated it will sometimes POP as the bags inflate and body raises, somewhere in it is a bushing that sticks I think, I have never been able to find it and there are no other ill effects.
Good luck
Gary B

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #110 – November 22, 2012, 08:41:37 am

Michael, You might want to take a look at the members map to see if there are other owners near you. I will bet that if they know you are nearby they would be willing to at least look over your shoulder as you work out the kinks in your project. It never hurts to ask and I have found that FT owners are always willing to help out.
If you will pile that coach on a flat bed and meet me in FL in JAN , I and a bunch of others will be more than willing to offer expert advice. ( It is always more fun to screw with someone else's equipment than it is your own )

One thing you have to remember is that the advice you get from me is worth EXACTLY what you paid for it.

Gary B

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #111 – November 22, 2012, 08:44:51 am

Maybe the incorrect ign switch see attached. Switch readily available at NAPA.
There is a connector that just plugs into the rear of the switch. If the connector has been changed then I would suspect some other problems. It should be apparent if it has been changed. See attached for further info. also see data copied from my engine data plate.

for switch removal
Foretravel ignition switch

Good luck,
Rick

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #112 – November 22, 2012, 03:23:46 pm

I finally have some pics to share regarding these issues I'm working through. First one is of that socket hanging down next to the drivers footwell area. I'm thinking it it a diagnostic socket. And oh! -- thanks for the tip about the dash pad hinging up. I had no idea, as it is not mentioned in any documentation in either factory foretravel binder I have. Sure makes it a lot easier. I did not see anything unusual there (Like damaged wires, cracked grounding bar, or anything else) regarding my issue yesterday of turning the key off, and everything still staying on.

Next few pics are of the ignition switch. Could someone give me the exact p/n for the GM switch for a '95 U300 -- so I can compare it? I'm hoping the numbers are different and a p.o. or the tow company put in the wrong replacement switch. Also are a few pics of the harness w/splices that somebody did -- going into the ignition switch.

Then -- the fuel primer on the filter housing. Unscrewing it CCW and you will end up with this assembly in your hand. I took a pic looking into the bore after removing this. No matter what I do -- this does not turn into a pump. I would have thought you loosen it that 1/4 turn, and the knob would move up with a shaft underneath it, and then you could start pumping . No dice. I may have to remove the entire filter housing and see what is going on.

And last -- are pics of the wires in that vinyl-jacket wrapped loom in the basement that I repaired from the critters chewing them apart, shown as damaged, and then after the repair, but prior to shrinking the sleeve over the gold-plated butt connectors I used.

Now that I have the exact colors of all the affected wires I found in the basement -- I can look at the wiring diagrams and hopefully fully identify where they go to.

Gerry, No -- I was not connected to shore power when these electrical gremlins started after turning the ignition switch on for the very first time. I've only used the the two new battery banks and the gen-set, since I got it up and purring.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!,

Michael

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #113 – November 22, 2012, 03:41:46 pm

Michael,
That's some weird stuff going on. As far as I know there's no circuit boards or black boxes you have to worry about. It should all be hardwiring and relays. It could be just one thing miswired - you never know.
Just some tidbits:
-There's an ignition relay http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=13978.msg84341#msg84341 that actually powers up everything on the dash. The ignition switch just supplies power to the coil of the relay. Maybe this relay is sticking, but you can check to see if it working correctly with the ignition switch. It's located right in front of the steering wheel under the "lift up" dash.
-I believe if you use the search function on the forum you can find info on the ignition switch p/n.
-You should have two notebooks comprising the owners manuals on the coach and one should have some schematics in the back. I've attached the ones from my coach which will be similar but no doubt different for your coach. I would start by studying these and tracing out circuits. It good information to have anyway to understand what how the coach is basically wired.
-The symptoms with the generator are puzzling. Maybe the voltmeter above door is powered with 12 volts?
- I highly doubt the engine was changed out. Your coach was completed in July 94 (reading your drivers side VIN plate) so it's not surprising at all that the engine is a '93. Even more so since the CAT engine was an option and maybe FT move through their supply slower.
I wish I was there to help - I actually enjoy this kind of stuff. It's a great feeling when you find the culprit and get that "Ah ha" moment.
Good luck and Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #114 – November 22, 2012, 03:48:40 pm

Thanks, John

Yes -- I have all the wiring diagrams that came with the Coach. I'll dive into it next week. Time now to nudge it all aside for a few days.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #115 – November 22, 2012, 07:06:18 pm

Worse case on the primer pump is to replace the whole manual pump. There are two bolts holding it to the secondary fuel filter housing.

Any Caterpillar dealer should have one.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #116 – November 22, 2012, 07:54:32 pm

Brett,

That's what I'm thinking. I've been looking online for them. About $75-100.

I think this one is seized.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #117 – November 22, 2012, 08:45:57 pm

Place that plunger part of the fuel primer pump in some penetrating oil and let it soak, you've got nothing to loose, then try to work it while it is out of the tube. it should not be seized as it has been in fuel oil I think it is just very dry and they are very tight when they haven't been used.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #118 – November 23, 2012, 03:11:18 am

Thanks, Gerry -- I'll try that. It is a fact that it makes no sense that it should be seized, considering the low usage. But I've seen it before on foreign sports cars. That's why using the equipment keeps it young.

I did a search with my CAT number of 9CK 01469 and it did come up as a 3176B.

I'm thinking it is near the time to buy a CAT manual for the engine. Some things irritate me already -- about the stock install of the power unit. Like the placement of this priming pump. In the future is a little project to buy the extra length fuel line and re-locate the secondary filter housing/priming pump onto a bulkhead easily accessible from the rear. It's one thing to lift that access cover over the bed with no mattress present. It would be a PITA to do it with your bedding in place. And the owner is expected to do this every 6K miles for scheduled filter changes that require priming ?.... bad design in my opinion.

Again, I come from first an amateur -- and then professional racing machine background. We did things from sports cars to Indy cars with common sense paramount from a time point of view (serviceability), and reliability/robustness. Whereas I'm very impressed with a lot of the build-quality of this Foretravel, I've already seen many things that could have been done better. But then -- that will be half the pleasure as I get more immersed. Tweaking/modifying it is going to be a lot of fun.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #119 – November 23, 2012, 08:32:42 am

Micheal, On my 8.3 Cummins I had a " PrimeLoc" installed. Moved the filter from the block to next to the water separator, now can change both filters in a few minutes. This is no longer available for the Cummins but something similar may be available for your cat.
Gary B

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #120 – November 23, 2012, 12:32:16 pm

Gary,
hmmm...you have me thinking, now. I have many aeroquip fittings and some stainless steel braided hose that I held onto from the racing days. I might have enough for a system you describe, and would just have to fabricate the bracketry. It would be a much better deal to have the secondary filter looking right at you from the rear of the engine bay.

I will have to check on the compatibility of the hose material. I used it for running oil to coolers, and racing fuel to the engines. But I don't know if it is compatible with diesel fuel.

I figure the Baldwin primary filter can stay where it is -- as down on my knees -reaching over the chassis battery bank to service that one is not so bad . I say that now-- before age 60 -- but might regret that decision later! :-).

I'm thinking it's lower location than the secondary on the CAT block is by design -- but could be wrong on that one.

Happy motoring adventures to all,

Michael

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #121 – November 23, 2012, 01:55:29 pm

Michael, I think Cat also makes an electric priming pump,Brett is watching he may have a part number for it.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #122 – November 23, 2012, 03:46:09 pm

The manual pumps are pretty bomb-proof and simple. But, as you would suspect, don't use a plunger for many years and it or it's gasket may give up the ghost. DO agree on moving the secondary fuel filter/primer pump to a more convenient location. Were it me, I would not consider electric.

Many Foretravels already have this in an easy to access location. Couple of fittings and some hose and you are in business.

Brett

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #123 – November 23, 2012, 06:55:03 pm

Quote..
3.) I did think it strange a few days ago that with the gen-set running I could activate all functions of the HWH leveling system -- without the key being in the on position (not possible according to the manual). Well - today, it did not react that way, and in fact -- when I was finally able to get the HWH system to even react and power-up with the key in the "on" position, it showed the "travel" light on, even though the rear bags are completely deflated. Hmm....

I just read your post. If I am understanding your post correctly it sounds like your house battery disconnect is turned off. The leveling system on mine does not work without 12 volts. And the travel light on is normal with the key switched on. It doesnt matter if the bags are inflated. It just means the travel solenoid is on so it can pump up to travel height. Hope I got that all correct.

Regards, Mark Z

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #124 – November 23, 2012, 07:27:51 pm

Quote from: Mark Zettek – November 23, 2012, 06:55:03 pm

If I am understanding your post correctly it sounds like your house battery disconnect is turned off.

Regards, Mark Z

I think Mark Z. has correctly identified the "problem." Odd things can happen if you attempt normal operations with the master house switch turned off. We normally leave the switch on. If it goes off under normal conditions, we blame it on the dog after we identify the problem.

I just checked our coach and found the following behavior from the HWH leveling system:

Ignition Off, House Switch On: Travel light off, Manual or Automatic leveling works
Ignition Off, House Switch Off: Travel light off, No lights or operation from HWH panel
Ignition On, House Switch On: Travel light off (no pressure), Manual or Automatic leveling works, alarm sounds if pressure is down or system is not in travel mode
Ignition On, House Switch Off: Travel light on, No other lights or operation from HWH panel

Like Mark, "hope I got that all correct." I checked it all and I think I retained it long enough to create this post.

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