Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Topic: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE (Read 5665 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #75 – November 15, 2012, 12:09:45 am

PatC,

I don't yet know how many stages. This is a whole new platform for me. But I'm liking what I'm fast learning!

Michael

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #76 – November 15, 2012, 08:38:00 am

Quote from: geomm – November 15, 2012, 12:09:45 am

PatC,

I don't yet know how many stages. This is a whole new platform for me. But I'm liking what I'm fast learning!

Michael

Look at the side of the upper heads on the engine and you will see the Jacob name embossed in the upper head. If just the one position switch in the switch bank labeled "retarder" it is generally wire for all 3 stages to come on at once. While no experience with the trans retarder, I like the Jake brake. Once you get it all going you will want to have the trans reprogrammed to have the trans downshift to 5th gear instead of the standard 4th, and then downshift manually to 4th if needed. Go back and do some Foreforum searching for topics under the jake brake and read up on it. There are some unique operating features that you must be aware of to get the most out of it. There are different operating modes that works under and most of them have been covered in past discussions. I put a little bumper on my switch so that I could find it quickly as I reached down to turn it on, see pic.
Good luck,
Rick

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), new information

Reply #77 – November 15, 2012, 11:29:12 am

Quote from: Tim Fiedler – November 14, 2012, 11:12:04 pm

soldering those joints might be better in the long run than crimp connectors, and I am fond of shrink tubing as well for that finished look -available at radio shack

No crimp ever

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #78 – November 15, 2012, 11:39:06 am

Quote from: geomm – November 15, 2012, 12:09:45 am

PatC,

I don't yet know how many stages. This is a whole new platform for me. But I'm liking what I'm fast learning!

Michael

I thought I did not remember a retarder. The jake works really well on that cat. I sold 3176 marquis with a three position jake so i think its available. customer preference software allowed the jake to work on cruise control btw. 2,4,6 cylinder mode could adjust the amount of jake for different uses. Customers would tell me that they put both feet off the pedals and went 67mph up and down hills at 8.25mpg. With a heavier coach and a towed car. They loved it.

Cat always understated the hp. I asked the cat man and he mentioned that some states tax trucks based on road horsepower.......

Plus foretravel on some engines were able to program their own power settings. The series 60 demo must have been 600 or so. Why? Empty coach would go zero to 60 in 18 seconds. Time yours and you will appreciate that number.

Like I said the issue was corrosion in the block. Have a cat guy look at this. For sure.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #79 – November 15, 2012, 12:08:01 pm

Also found a pair hydraulic bottle jacks, set in same spot works great also and provides the ability to keep body raised to the full height instead of letting the body down on the blocks.
FWIW only
Dave M

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #80 – November 15, 2012, 12:25:10 pm

Thanks for the tips, and the real-world results people are having with the Jake. I had no idea there was that much flexibility, i.e. through re-programming.
Cool stuff!

Oh! -- and yes, I'll solder those connections instead of crimping. That ought to be interesting, laying on my back in the basement while soldering. Just maybe, because that particular wiring harness is coiled up -- I might be able to un-coil it and have enough slack to solder it laying on my belly instead.

Safe motoring,

Michael

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #81 – November 15, 2012, 12:53:19 pm

Go look at this topic for solder sleeves.

http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=16497.msg106117#msg106117

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #82 – November 15, 2012, 01:08:48 pm

There is clearly room for discussion here. A good crimp is a very good way join wires. Note, I said GOOD crimp.

That is an approved way on marine wiring where corrosive atmosphere makes a good connection more critical. We are talking about using the proper size connector and the proper crimp tool using the correct "jaw" for that size connector.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #83 – November 15, 2012, 01:12:57 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – November 15, 2012, 01:08:48 pm

There is clearly room for discussion here. A good crimp is a very good way join wires. Note, I said GOOD crimp.

That is an approved way on marine wiring where corrosive atmosphere makes a good connection more critical. We are talking about using the proper size connector and the proper crimp tool using the correct "jaw" for that size connector.

True and I solder the crimp on top of it. Airplane buddies suggestion. Positive retention and solder.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #84 – November 15, 2012, 01:47:06 pm

For instance the 95 M11 engines were 370 hp upgraded to 400hp by Foretravel. Some of those engine upgrades (including mine) were not reported to Cummins. I verified the upgrade at my local Cummins Coach Care when I bought the coach and had the file updated.

My jake (and all I've seen) was factory wired to be 'all on'. Its a pain to split it out.

I'm partial to the 4th gear pre-select.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #85 – November 15, 2012, 01:53:28 pm

Agree, always did both on aircraft, except "inline" connections

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #86 – November 16, 2012, 12:50:27 am

Caflashbob,

From what I've found in my picking around online, the "B" version of the 3176 CAT in the 1995 FT did not have the aluminum spacer of the earlier engines, nor the corrosion issue you speak of.

But I could be wrong, of course.

Safe motoring,

Michael

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #87 – November 16, 2012, 03:14:16 pm

As to crimping wires I seem to remember a study on the best way and they found that there was a possible corrosion problem in soldered connections with the flux reacting with the tin and copper. I agree with Brett. A good crimp is the way to go and use the terminals with heat shrink sleeves containing adhesive. You are not only making a good waterproof connection but should be reliving some of the strain on the wire by mechanically fastening the insulation to the terminal as well.

A proper crimped connection with heat shrink/adhesive sleeve is stronger than the wire itself.

Keith

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #88 – November 16, 2012, 03:52:41 pm

Soldering wire, one uses rosin core solder, NOT ACID core solder, that is the corrosion source on wire. I Admit, I never heard of rosin core solder causing corrosion.
A proper crimp using a clean wire, clean connector and correctly crimped, (Not hammered, beat on, squeezed in a vise) then correctly soldered, then correctly use of correct heat shrink makes for a very fine mechanical-electrical connection.
Proper crimping equipment is not cheap, but can make a beautiful crimp, some not so beautiful.
Crimp connectors did not happen until stranded wire became popular, Patent to Burndy Co for the crimp concept and others.
FWIW
Dave M

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #89 – November 16, 2012, 04:41:45 pm

for info-- when I had a power problem with the Banks system last year and could not find the problem (mainly due to my back not allowing me to climb down into the engine area) I stopped in Asuza at the company. They took 5 hrs to find the problem and it was a corroded/broken wire, so I told them to put a connector and crimp it. Well you should have seen the techs face, "Crimp it ? we do not do that, instead we replace the whole wiring loom. Banks does not do temp' repairs he said" so I told them I was not buying a whole new wiring harness and to bring my coach out of the shop and place it on the street. I fixed it myself once I saw were the break was and it has been fine ever since.
I fully expect now to have a problem with it soon after saying all this.
John H

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #90 – November 16, 2012, 05:45:26 pm

Quote from: geomm – November 16, 2012, 12:50:27 am

Caflashbob,

From what I've found in my picking around online, the "B" version of the 3176 CAT in the 1995 FT did not have the aluminum spacer of the earlier engines, nor the corrosion issue you speak of.

But I could be wrong, of course.

Safe motoring,

Michael

Very good. Yes it's a 3176B. Now that you remind me. Realiy nice driving coach. That's why I memorized johns phone number as I knew sooner or later it would come around. By then I bought my 97 320 mid door. That ones faster.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), making good progress

Reply #91 – November 19, 2012, 01:56:57 pm

Happy Holiday week to all!

Yesterday's work to revive the Coach had a good outcome. I ended up repairing 14 chewed-through wires from the rodent infestation. It was in the same loom of 8 wires that I mentioned earlier, but it traversed the two basement bays. I removed the side carpeted panels with the robertson screws so I could completely drop the galvanized steel panels -- and follow the loom all the way.

I'll send pics later. I fitted all the new batteries, but only connected the three chassis batteries. After pulling the dipstick on the generator and seeing the oil was a honey color as if it had been changed before the Coach went down, I decided to just try and start the unit. I was going to do the bleeding as recommended first, but thought I'd just give it go as-is.

I first held the pre-heat switch for only 7-8 seconds and heard the electric fuel pump clicking and building pressure immediately, and it started within 3 seconds on the starter, but died. I waited about 30 seconds, and held the preheat for a full 15 seconds this second time. It immediately started and ran smooth. No hunting or misfiring. I switched on the breaker (all the breakers in the bedroom panel are still off, master switch by the entrance door-on), and watched it for about 10 minutes -- to check for leaks and to let it come to temp.

I then went inside -- and initiated the leveling system. Because the driveway is on a nose-down slant, only the front airbags came fully up as it did it's leveling thing ( I have to learn a lot more about the system).

I then went around the interior, trying switches and every light came on. The inverter is switched off (didn't think any reason to turn it on until I hook up the coach batteries). I'm trying to take little steps here.

So -- it was a huge day for me. I really do believe all of those severed wires in that loom are related to why this was a no-starter back in the RV Park it was removed from 18 months ago. The colors -- all in that common loom I remember are (purple, orange, 2-white wires, yellow, blue, grey, maybe tan). They look like the 20 gage wires that would go to a ECU or Transmission control unit. Oh! - when I hooked up the chassis positive terminal, I heard two relatively loud mechanical noises (each less than a second from each other) from the allison -- like a solenoid engagement sound. Any idea's what that might have been?

I let the gen-set run for 90 minutes, and it was silky smooth the whole time. So -- now I believe I've answered the question as to whether the fuel is still good -- and next Sunday (yeah, bummer is I can only work on it once a week -- until the kitchen re-model project I'm doing is complete) -- it's time to try and fire-up the CAT. Related to that, anyone know what the special socket is called on the 3176 crank pulley? ( It has a recessed, kinda female star-pattern to accept a special tool). Before trying to start it, I'd like to put a socket and breaker-bar on there, and just rotate the engine CW a couple of revolutions.

Also -- up in the drivers footwell area -- against the outside bulkhead, there is a grey plastic connector hanging there -- about 1.25" in diameter. I searched with a mirror and flashlight -- all contorted around the pedals and steering column to try and peer up there (under the transmission shift panel under the side window) to look for a connector with male pins that it would connect to, but now I'm thinking it may be a diagnostic plug-in connector for some system. Anyone know?

Wish I could send a pic, but don't have the ability to get them out of my camera where I currently am.

Anyway -- feeling ever more positive in bringing her back to life!

Happy and safe motoring,

Michael

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #92 – November 19, 2012, 04:25:11 pm

Sounds like you are progressing smoothly. I would not worry about turning the Cat engine over by hand, when the time comes just hit the key and I'm sure it will "Purr" right from the start. I bought my '94 GV U300 from an estate here in FL and it had been sitting in a A.C. storage garage for several years - Batteries,Tires & I took off for Home, My most major problem was that where the battery cables were stacked too the terminal posts on the batteries, they had built up a hard black almost ceramic deposit in between the flat connectors, mine were bolted to the back of the battery terminal connector that then attached to the battery post. This was a difficult problem to find as these bolts were all tight and did not appear to have any problems. Thanks for keeping use up to date I really appreciate your adventure......

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), making good progress

Reply #93 – November 19, 2012, 06:58:05 pm

I would just bump it a few times with the starter. Good luck turning over a diesel that size with a 24:1 compression ratio (thereabouts...)

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #94 – November 19, 2012, 07:24:23 pm

That plug you are talking about sounds like the diagnostic one. It usually is fastened up under the bottom af dash! Does it have 9 pins?
John H

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #95 – November 19, 2012, 07:48:23 pm

Ours had also been sitting for a couple of years but was an instant start after I installed 3 new engine batteries. Diesel fuel may change formulation slightly after a few months but will run a diesel engine even if sitting for 100 years. I bought a cable CAT D-8 that had been sitting for over 20 years and it ran fine on the old fuel.

On the other hand, watch temps as thermostats can stick after sitting for a while. They can stick closed or only open part way. Tough with the generator as it does not have a temp gauge.

Check brake calipers and the pins for movement. One might stick after sitting. Have coasted to a uphill stop without applying brakes, set the parking brake and slid underneath to feel rotor temps after a few miles.

Open outside access door for the fridge and check for rodent nests before starting the unit on propane. You did say you had rodent wiring damage.

Make sure the air compressor shuts off at about 110-120 lbs and on again about 80 lbs. Parking brake cans should both release as the air pressure builds with the parking brake in the drive position. Have had to cycle the button several times with the pressure up to get the parking brake to release after sitting a long time on my Buffalo bus. With the engine idling, pressure should stay up and only gradually drop. Frequent cycling indicates an air leak somewhere.

Make sure to have exact replacement belts for alternator, hyd pump, etc. I lost two on the way home but had bought spares before I took off.

If the vacuum pump (in the nose) runs very much, move the heater temperature control a quarter inch to the right and that will stop it.

Pierce

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #96 – November 19, 2012, 09:56:14 pm

I don't know for sure if it's the same for your '95 but my '91 wire looms for the Allison transmission have a black stranded vinyl weave on the outside with just a few strands that are yellow in color. The looms for the engine (which is a Detroit, not a CAT) are all black which makes it easy to tell the two apart. This might give you a little insight into what system might have been affected by the damaged wires.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #97 – November 20, 2012, 07:04:24 am

I'd disable fuel supply to the CAT initially and run the starter a couple times to get oil circulating. It would be great if you could see the oil pressure gauge move a smidge.

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #98 – November 20, 2012, 01:34:32 pm

Thanks to all for the good advice. Looking at my wiring diagrams, it does look like the affected wires do go to the allison and the cat ecm, so with all of them repaired now -- I should be in good shape. I'll confirm that later when I get another picture of each and every color. That loom with the fabric vinyl jacket does take on additional wire colors from other branches of the loom as it moves down the Coach belly length. The mice/rats had a city built in there. I removed enough debris by hand -- made of paper, old rags, and twigs to fill a 5-gallon bucket four times, and an innumerable amount of old droppings that I vacuumed out. At some point down the path of this project, I'm going to find out where the point(s) of entry was and make sure they are sealed -- maybe using that expanding foam spray.

onward -- It is good advice to turn the engine over a few times without available fuel supply. Because I bought a new primary and secondary fuel filter set, and will change them out before trying a start -- I suppose just turning it over before doing the bleeding/priming of the fuel lines/filters will accomplish that. I did read that it was not recommended to use the starter for more than 30 seconds at a time or overheating or damage to the starter could result. So -- I'm not sure that time will allow any display of pressure to arrive at the front dash (the manual states this could take as much as one minute -- so I'm assuming it is a mechanical guage, which kind of surprised me. Is this information accurate?). It might be a worthwhile upgrade at some point to install a second one (electric with a sending unit) on the remote start panel instead of just the idiot light. Which brings up a question. The red light on that rear panel. How long, typically -- does it take after you first start the engine for that light to go out as the engine builds suitable oil pressure? I would think it would go out within a second of the engine starting.

And thanks for the advice on the fridge -- I had not checked that out to see if the rascals got in there.

One other thing I have to rectify before my next visit. The new chassis batteries are very nice. They even have gold plated posts with a knurling on the surface for a good bite. However -- the existing cable that connects the posts in parallel (on both sides) have the clamps of a poor design. I'm thinking maybe a place like West Marine may have a better quality product. These need over-tightening, and even then -- the one on the positive side kept popping up and loose on the center battery post in the bank. I also may install a quick-disconnect on the positive post back there. Something about my racing days that stayed with me is to always have the ability with one turn of a knob or lever to isolate ALL electrical power from a vehicle.

I know that some may think I'm approaching this in too conservative of a fashion. However -- because I don't know how long it sat since the last running of the mechanical systems, I'm going slow. It could have been two years, or it could have been five years. The last Ad I saw online where John (the p.o.) was trying to sell it -- had a picture in front of a house with the toad attached, and that Ad was dated 2007.

I do have a question related to power-washing the CAT. It's my intention to get it clean (lots of twigs, and brown evergreen branches, dirt, etc all over it) -- and first wrap plastic around the wiring looms that run along the box steel sections so not to get water into any connectors there -- but -- what about the other parts of the CAT. Is it safe to get down into the nooks and crannies with a high-pressure nozzle without screwing up something?. I want to get it clean, and then get some CAT-yellow paint to touch it up. And I was thinking of using some scotch-brite on the steel tubes from the turbo and charge-cooler, as the silver has corrosion showing through in a lot of places -- and spraying them with an aluminized silver paint. Surprising -- considering the light usage, but the ebb and flow of the marine-layer air out here in SoCal can do a lot of damage to steel surfaces that just sit -- if you are within about 5 miles of the actual coastline.

Safe motoring to all,

Michael McLaughlin

Re: Biting the bullet (hard), I finally have my dream Coach - a 1995 U300 SE

Reply #99 – November 20, 2012, 01:44:44 pm

Michael,

I am adverse to high pressure or steam cleaning any electronically controlled engine.

I know that it is quicker than using a roll of paper towels and WD40 or other solvent but you also run the risk of doing damage to sensors or ECM. The electrical connections are water proof, but 1000 PSI water changes that.

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