Foretravels and rust

Topic: Foretravels and rust (Read 1952 times) previous topic - next topic

Foretravels and rust

November 12, 2012, 03:28:55 pm

I'll start a new thread for this question. How are Foretravels in the rust department? Are they prone to develop rust, either hidden or in exposed areas?

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #1 – November 12, 2012, 03:39:48 pm

One of the best people to ask is Don as he has intimate knowledge of the frame in certain areas. One other issue that has come up over time is the poorly designed methods to get rid of water spillage from tanks, ie Overflow pipes. This has been dealt with and many have done the suggested changes. I personally have no issues with protection from rust, and feel the coach is built better than most on that matter. It is going to be an ongoing maintenance task no matter how a coach is put together and one has to spray protectives etc to mitigate the problem as best as possible.
John H

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #2 – November 12, 2012, 04:15:21 pm

Most any vehicle will rust provided it has been subject to the salt, either road salt, sea breeze salty air, and/or high condensation. I would recommend checking out the rust issue on anything I purchase, car, truck RV and airplane + others. If you do not feel comfy doing the checking, hire some one that knows what they are looking for. Never buy something that has been a beach buggy, your beggin for issues.
Dave M

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #3 – November 12, 2012, 05:33:26 pm

Silver Eagles were notorious for frame rot. They do not have a frame in the traditional, like a Spartan, etc. But the phrase became attached to them because so many of them had problems with the structural cages themselves rusting from the inside out. You can look down the beltline of many Eagles and see the trim that divides the solid siding below the window from the anodized aluminum on the bottom half of the coach. If it has frame rot issues, you will very frequently see that piece of trim is wavy rather than straight and tight.

I have seen conversion coaches that had issues with rust around windshield posts and especially in older coaches, areas where the hinges on lower storage doors (like battery doors) etc. are attached.

I have also seen other brands of coaches, including MCIs that had rusting issues in the framework ahead of the front axle like where the steering box is attached.

Those are the kind of issues that I particularly wondered about.

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #4 – November 12, 2012, 06:39:26 pm

I believe the Don that John is refering to is "acousticart". Here is the thread you want: http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=15737.msg97896#msg97896. I believe that Don's problem was quite extensive and unusual. But having said that, even fire apparatus that is garaged most of its life will rust badly.

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #5 – November 12, 2012, 06:44:17 pm

Yes the Eagle Bus is the laughing butt end of jokes about two major issues, first is the rust issue, if you have one, you need to be a high speed welder to keep up with the high speed rust, second is the rubber suspension, very expensive to keep up to snuff, cost of replacement units, and then the six scales and some one who knows how to adjust the suspension to get the correct weight on each scale. Oh Joy, much $$$$$$$$$$ INVOLVED

Why I jumped for joy with the old MCI7 that spent its life in the south on the greydog line, FL, Tx Ca. Did not have all the rust issues. Gotta keep eyes open and be lucky.
Dave M

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #6 – November 12, 2012, 06:52:04 pm

Quote from: Dave M – November 12, 2012, 06:44:17 pm

Yes the Eagle Bus is the laughing butt end of jokes about two major issues, first is the rust issue, if you have one, you need to be a high speed welder to keep up with the high speed rust, second is the rubber suspension, very expensive to keep up to snuff, cost of replacement units, and then the six scales and some one who knows how to adjust the suspension to get the correct weight on each scale. Oh Joy, much $$$$$$$$$$ INVOLVED
Why I jumped for joy with the old MCI7 that spent its life in the south on the greydog line, FL, Tx Ca. Did not have all the rust issues. Gotta keep eyes open and be lucky.
Dave M

I really enjoy the Eagle ride, especially the late sixties models. But, you are right. They aren't for everyone. The MC7 is my favorite MCI body style, especially if they still have original front and rear caps. In case you can't tell, I really like some of the older coaches.

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #7 – November 12, 2012, 07:06:09 pm

Without trying to bore everyone to death, will keep it short, the Eagle before 1968 had the light suspension, the next version had stronger units, but rode hard. The MCI7 was right after the MCI6, an all stainless bus, then the MCI7 had alot of stainless and some steel, the MCI8 had little stainless and lot more steel. so rust was as expected and if it was from Buffalo NY, they rusted like an Eagle. Best toy I ever played, MCI7 w/12V-71 & RTO910.
Enuff said
Dave M

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #8 – November 12, 2012, 07:50:19 pm

Dave M is right the company that I worked for bought a MCI out of Canada (Great Lakes region) that we could not put on the road because of frame rust. All was not lost as it was used for parts. Even the big guys in the game get taken. Buyer beware.

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #9 – November 12, 2012, 09:17:38 pm

Quote from: Dave M – November 12, 2012, 07:06:09 pm

Without trying to bore everyone to death, will keep it short, the Eagle before 1968 had the light suspension, the next version had stronger units, but rode hard. Dave M

I'm dating myself a bit, but when I first hired on with Trailways, the division I worked for still had a few older ones (even for that time) such as 2 GM PD4104s, a 1961 01, a 1963 01 Hi-Top Golden Eagle, a 1964 01, a couple of 1965 01s and a 1967 01. My favorite of all of them was the 1967. It was a real pleasure to drive and, in my opinion, rode like a cloud. That was the last year for the tag axle to be in the rear. 1968 was the crossover year when the 05s began. The 1968s that I caught most frequently were basically 05s from the beltline down and 01s from the beltline up.

Seems I have allowed myself to roam completely off-topic. My ancient bus driving history has nothing at all to do with my original question about Foretravels and rust.

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #10 – November 12, 2012, 11:35:08 pm

Bookman,
Here is another link for you to check out - Bulkhead Separation

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #11 – November 13, 2012, 06:21:50 am

PatC

Thanks for the link. Do you know what the "problematic years" were? The article uses that term, and it also says that the issue was later resolved by a construction change in those areas.

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #12 – November 13, 2012, 08:48:43 am

Bookman, I realize you are not looking for a coach of our vintage (1989) but I must say that with 72,000+ miles on our Oshkosh Truck chassis rust is almost nonexistent!! The only place I ever found any was on the leaf springs and u-bolts. Absolutely amazing considering the coach is 23 years old.
Clean? When I see some of the pics of modifications and repairs of most of the newer coaches I am amazed by how dirty and/or rusty they are in the pics. Even when they have mileage comparable to ours. Guess we are just lucky.

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #13 – November 13, 2012, 09:33:12 am

The "Bulkhead Issue" refers only to Unihome, Grand Villas with a semi-monocoque chassis and the Flat Nose Unicoaches since Basically any Foretravel that was not built on a frame (like the Oshkosh chassis coaches) should be checked for bulkhead separation before purchase. It's pretty easy to see if there is a problem. Go under the coach and see how many, if any, bulkhead bolt heads are missing or loose and if it appears that there is a lot of rust and separation between the main body of the coach and the front and rear frames.

The bulkheads should be fixed if there is any noticeable separation but it is not a huge or terribly expensive job unless one does as Don did and strip and rebuild the frame. I know of no other owner that undertook a repair this extensive. I give him lots of credit for a great job but I don't think I would have felt the need to do all of that work. I only know of one frame failure and we never knew for sure if it was from rust jacking of the bulkheads.

From my experience, the cost for a factory correction is usually under $1500 for a "worst case" scenario. The cost for my repair on my 19 year old coach was just $300 and again probably didn't need to be done except for my peace of mind. This coach lived most of its life in Brighton, CO so it was exposed to salt.

Other than the bulkhead issue, I know of no other rust problems unless there has been a neglected leak in the holding tank areas. Look for blistered fiberglass floor and under the coach in those area for surface anomalies.

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #14 – November 13, 2012, 12:36:02 pm

Any vehicle owned and operated where the roads are salted in winter will have a certain amount of damage directly attributable to this practice . Generally, owners from this area will not have a realistic idea of what a rust free vehicle is and will not be able to give an accurate assessment when advertising their vehicle for sale. As noted in the above posts, the extent of the damage may not be that easy to determine so consulting an owner with experience with a vehicle from a northern area is an excellent suggestion. If you are from a sunbelt area, you may be surprised with what some sellers consider "rust free."

Pat's comment about the fire apparatus is quite correct. If a vehicle has been driven on streets with deicing chemicals, a dry apparatus floor is not guarantee that rust and corrosion won't occur. On the other hand, vehicles from the southwest may be over 50 years old without showing any signs of rust.

With only our 1993 U300 to use as a reference, my opinion is that Foretravel, while making an excellent motorhome, is not without design flaws and is susceptible to rust in several hidden areas. With the resources available with this forum, any problems can be checked and repaired. With many other brands, "a litany of woes" is an understatement of the problems encountered, especially as the vehicle ages.

I also had a "Buffalo" bus conversion for 20 years. Other than a partial failure of a DD-3 brake can and rotted rubber compartment hinges, it was trouble free.

Pierce

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #15 – November 13, 2012, 01:11:02 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – November 13, 2012, 12:36:02 pm

Any vehicle owned and operated where the roads are salted in winter will have a certain amount of damage directly attributable to this practice . Generally, owners from this area will not have a realistic idea of what a rust free vehicle is and will not be able to give an accurate assessment when advertising their vehicle for sale. As noted in the above posts, the extent of the damage may not be that easy to determine so consulting an owner with experience with a vehicle from a northern area is an excellent suggestion. If you are from a sunbelt area, you may be surprised with what some sellers consider "rust free."

Pierce

While some of this may be true to an extent, I have to say that not all of us here in the snowbelt are driving rust-buckets around. Wherever you reside there is the potential that you have to take certain measures to maintain a vehicles condition due to Mother nature, be it rust, sun, insects, etc.

In the winter months as needed we run our cars and truck through the car wash which most all here have a "bottom blast" feature. One big reason to do this is at least here in Maine we have a stringent inspection procedure that requires that if you have any surface rust on brake lines, trani lines, oil pans etc. thay have to be replaced before getting an annual inspection sticker. This includes motorhomes.
All of our vehicles are rust free including my Dodge 4x4 plow truck that sits outside all year. It just takes some regular effort to keep them that way.

The coach we sold at FOT this past March lived here nearly 5 years and was clean as a whistle underneath. We never drive our motorhome in the snow or on wet winter roads if it can be helped. If it happens I give it a bottom bath. Also a few cans of rustoleum can do wonders to protect things.

Dean

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #16 – November 13, 2012, 04:05:08 pm

When I was shopping for my coach I looked at a '99 U320 in Pennsylvania. It was beautiful, with that safari motif. That is, until I looked more closely, It had spent every winter of its life in Florida in an RV park of the water. The rotting mirrors and horns were the first signs, but the closer I looked underneath, the worse it looked. Road salt is not the only source of corrosive material.

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #17 – November 13, 2012, 04:54:52 pm

Working in the Municipal Fleet world where we had lots of trucks that spread salt and calcium chloride. I would spec the trucks out as if they were ocean going ships. Seal everything. It's not just the rust on frame and running gear that suffers from salt but electrical connections as well. As to fire apparatus rusting it's caused by the worst thing to do - Drive on salted roads then put it in a heated building. Then, of course, Firemen like to keep their engines clean (sounds like the the Beatles Penny Lane?) and constant baths did not help in the rust department either.

If you keep metal from having moisture retained against it by road dirt or salt build up it will rust slowly.

Just think what the NY Subway has to deal with with salt water in the tunnels. Every connection to be cleaned and remade!

Keith

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #18 – November 13, 2012, 04:56:31 pm

Brett,

This also applies to aircraft based anywhere around the ocean. The salt spray drifts inland with the breeze and really reacts with aluminum and steel even inside hangers.

Dean,

Not to say everyone in the snow belt states drives a rust bucket but not all coach owners are as dedicated as you are. There are also some areas that trap road chemicals that the "bottom blasters" are not 100% effective on. Lack of corrosion resistive materials in these areas adds to the corrosion/rust potential. That's why it pays to have someone with that model knowledge help check a potential purchase out.

Germany also salts the roads. Porsche and Fiat went to chassis galvanizing to combat the effects. Every year, we would purchase an unlimited car wash card and before we drove home in the wintertime, we would go through the wash with bottom sprayers. Shipping new cars Emden to Long Beach only took 17 days with the Ro-Ro ships but in that short time, you could see corrosion starting. The cars were all inside with hatches closed and no cars on deck.

Pierce

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #19 – November 13, 2012, 06:58:38 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – November 13, 2012, 04:56:31 pm

Brett,

This also applies to aircraft based anywhere around the ocean. The salt spray drifts inland with the breeze and really reacts with aluminum and steel even inside hangers.

Dean,

There are also some areas that trap road chemicals that the "bottom blasters" are not 100% effective on. Lack of corrosion resistive materials in these areas adds to the corrosion/rust potential. That's why it pays to have someone with that model knowledge help check a potential purchase out.

Pierce

Pierce I agree 100% that anyone making a coach purchase should have a very thorough evaluation done including potential areas of corrosion. I guess my point was that it is possible to avoid catastophic damage with proper maintenance and that not all vehicles in the snow zones are leper's and are of less value than from somewhere else. I just see it as another maintenance item and if not done as needed there may be issues.

There is a local bodyshop here that for about $300. will descale and spray the underside of your car or truck with a paraffin wax mixture instead of standard rustproofing. I have heard it works extremely well and because it's red it makes for a real nice looking undercarriage. I have thought of seeing if he would roll around under my Foretravel with his equipment.

I do get a kick out of seeing a sign on a car from a local dealership that advertizes "Southern Car" when it could have been parked a block from the salt water it's entire life.
I was also amazed to hear on the news recently that it is perfectly legal for dealers to aquire vehicles that were immersed by a hurricane, clean them up and sell them without disclosure.

Just dosen't seem right to me but I guess that's what the carfax is for.

Dean

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #20 – November 13, 2012, 08:17:25 pm

Dean, I have been using that 'Parrafin-wax" composition on my vehicles for 20 yrs. BMW used to do it in Vancouver for $200 many years ago and that is were I got the idea when I bought my 730I. I have a 5 gall pail of it but only about 1 gall left. I have sprayed the underside of this coach twice with a low pressure gun after pressure washing and will do it again before leaving here in Dec for the trip thru Mtns to Vancouver. It really migrates well into the cracks and seams. On the cars I drill a 1/2" hole in box sections and feed a 1/4" plastic line into them and spray the insides too. Then I cover with plastic plugs.
John H

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #21 – November 13, 2012, 08:27:21 pm

About 40 years ago I owned a 1962 Mercury Monterrey with a 390 and dual exhaust. The mufflers were located right behind the rear wheels, and therefore needed to be changed annually. One year a shop (I don't remember which one, but it was a national chain) offered lifetime mufflers. I took them up on it, and as I left I said "See you next year." They laughed and said that these mufflers were so good I'd never have a problem with them. I made it a point to return one year to the day for my two new (free) mufflers. They couldn't understand why the mufflers would fail! DUH!!! Cold salt solution on hot steel muffler will result in rust every time.

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #22 – November 14, 2012, 09:26:34 am

Quote from: Dean & Dee – November 13, 2012, 06:58:38 pm

...Just dosen't seem right to me but I guess that's what the carfax is for.

Dean

Read the Carfax's agreement and you will find a disclaimer that has let them out of many claims. Don't put all your eggs in their basket

Disclaimer from their web site,

"CARFAX Vehicle History Reports are based on information supplied to CARFAX. CARFAX does not have the complete history of every vehicle. "

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #23 – November 14, 2012, 11:13:00 am

Quote from: John Haygarth – November 13, 2012, 08:17:25 pm

Dean, I have been using that 'Parrafin-wax" composition on my vehicles for 20 yrs. BMW used to do it in Vancouver for $200 many years ago and that is were I got the idea when I bought my 730I. I have a 5 gall pail of it but only about 1 gall left. I have sprayed the underside of this coach twice with a low pressure gun after pressure washing and will do it again before leaving here in Dec for the trip thru Mtns to Vancouver. It really migrates well into the cracks and seams. On the cars I drill a 1/2" hole in box sections and feed a 1/4" plastic line into them and spray the insides too. Then I cover with plastic plugs.
John H

John has picked up on an excellent idea that many new European car manufacturers use to prevent rust. Just like John, they spray in insides of rocker panels and other areas prone to salt spray with a parrafin-wax solution. A plastic plug in covers the hole where the applicator was inserted and the parrafin also sticks when sprayed on underbody parts. I always wondered what was behind the plugs so I pulled one out and stuck a flashlight up to the hole. If you don't want to galvanize the underneath (at the factory when building the vehicle), it's an excellent alternative.

Pierce

Re: Foretravels and rust

Reply #24 – November 14, 2012, 11:40:43 am

All Audis from approx 1984 are galvanized and then dipped in the paraffin-was solution prior to primer coat application. It works!

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