Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

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Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

March 27, 2013, 06:42:59 pm

Greetings from Lake Conroe, Texas! My wife and I are the "proud" owners of a 1997 Fleetwood American Eagle 40' single axle coach which we purchased from the original owners just over two years ago. I have done a huge mechanical and interior cosmetic make-over and we are both very satisfied using it in a non-fulltime basis. However, we would be interested in a larger coach if we fulltime at some point in the future if we can find something significantly nicer. I am curious to know your opinions of what makes late model Foretravels significantly better than say a new or nearly new American Coach, Newmar, or Entegra coach. Recently, while camping at Guadalupe River State Park near Boerne, Texas, we stopped and toured a brand new 2013 American Eagle and we both were VERY UN-impressed. We actually thought we would be drooling but found our coach to have a significantly higher quality build. It was a real disappointment. Any comments regarding newer Foretravel coaches would be most appreciated! THANK YOU, Jeff...

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #1 – March 27, 2013, 06:59:24 pm

Sorry we missed you ... we were just at Lake Conroe at the Thousand Trails location there. You could have "toured" our '02 U320 40' and made some comparisons. My best suggestion to you, if you hve not already done so, is to come to Nacogdoches to the Factory ... take a tour ... talk to some folks and perhaps spend a night or two in the parking lot here at Camp Foretravel. Come drink the kool-aid!!!

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #2 – March 27, 2013, 07:11:05 pm

It is not what you see but what you do not see. The wires are all numbered and are single runs. They semi monoque chassis is not a raised rail and that is huge as well. The non slide units are monoque chassis. They are designed so that they are easy to work on. They are engineered not using the lowest cost item to hit a price point but they price it based on a level of quality and man hours making a superior coach, so the design and construction is a bit different. Insides the coaches are all wooded and the number of remodels of older coaches. The sizing of the engine and transmission and the retarder is also a difference. Add in the size of the water and black and grey tanks as well as fuel. I have 110 gallons of water the same for grey and 80 for black. I have a 198 gallon fuel tank and a 12.5 KW generator. I also have three AC units up top all with heat pumps and the big aguahot as well. The other major thing is that they drive better than the raised rail units. I think a CC and Monoco Signature will drive similarly though. I believe that if you want a step up from a FT you will be looking at a Newell or a Prevost. They have the same things we do but the Newell has air doors and a different layout.

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #3 – March 27, 2013, 07:12:00 pm

Oh and add one other thing, most FT owners drive their coaches. I have over 300K miles on my three coaches and this one has 140K and I expect to hit 500 before I trade it for another coach.

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #4 – March 27, 2013, 07:58:45 pm

I agree with Carol. You need to go to the factory and tour some coaches. Or at least find some nearby you can look at. Also look at the Foretravel and Motorhomes of Texas websites. Have fun.

Mark

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #5 – March 27, 2013, 08:22:57 pm

Don't forget the outbound-mounted air bags for ride and leveling... The Foretravel chassis is something none of the other brands has.

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #6 – March 27, 2013, 08:35:16 pm

We are on our 3rd Foretravel... many old timers are like on their 8th Foretravels... enough said.

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #7 – March 27, 2013, 09:03:32 pm

One of the things that seems to surprise SOB (Some Other Brand) owners the most is that we typically leave all of the bathroom and kitchen items on the counters when traveling. The ride of our Foretravel is so smooth and solid it requires very little prep when we get ready to move. I think it is the outboard air bags that really makes the difference in a Foretravel. It doesn't feel sluggish and heavy like driving a tank, it is smooth and comfy more like a limo.

Gee, I think I like my Foretravel and its 20 years old.

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #8 – March 27, 2013, 09:09:10 pm

Most Foretravels are custom ordered. Foretravel in their best years rarely built over 100 coaches. Regardless of the model, they are built on the same assembly line by the same people, with the same level of dedication and components. The difference between a high end and a low end Foretravel is engine & trans choice, options and which wood is used (oak or walnut). Its one of few coaches that came standard with a trans retarder. 8 airbag outboard air suspension, 4 wheel disk brakes. On each Unicoach!

American Coach models like yours are good, solid coaches. Later on they cut corners.

Foretravel made some changes which saved some money (and weight) like the shift from all walnut walls, but I wouldn't say they cut corners. If anything they were hurt by being slow to adopt newer technology, like IFS, full body paint, slides, increades towing ratings, etc.

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #9 – March 27, 2013, 10:19:18 pm

Jeff,
It would be nice if your inquiry draws some of our newer generation owners out of the woodwork, but I can't resist offering a few personal observations.
We spend roughly 6 months in a nice Class A resort in FL each winter RiverBend Motorcoach Resort. I enjoy helping fellow resort owners and guests, working out coach problems with them, and I have spent considerable time working on Newmars and Americans over the past several winters. I'm not as familiar with Entegras (very small population). I've got several TS horror stories, but you didn't ask about Supremes.
When you say " I have done a huge mechanical and interior cosmetic make-over.............", do you mean "you" or that you have had others do it for you? If it is "you", you would be beside yourself with joy over what is below the surface in a Foretravel, as opposed to what is below the surface in an American or a Newmar. For instance:

The reason that doors and cabinets go "thunk" instead of "tink" or sound like a thin container of loose parts when the entry door is shut.

Solid, rugged, well laid out, accessible-for-maintenance design and implementation of design with livability and long term maintenance in mind. Many American Eagle and Heritage work situations have required more time disassembling to gain access, than the actual time to repair an item. The Fleetwood Hydra-Hots and battery bank electronic switches on Americans are notorious for this.

The quality and depth of the on-board documentation that comes with every Foretravel coach

The fact that there are not multiple DC fuse and breaker panels and nomenclature and drawings and ways of installation, depending on whether it was the chassis guy or the coach guy that designed it and installed it. Foretravel is all one philosophy, has one way of doing things and the drawings and the most commonly needed and used "build" documentation comes with the coach. Many people at the factory can answer almost any other question, using the same the same type of "build documentation" that has been done the same way for every coach built for decades and it is always available from the same factory that has been in operation for decades.

It is of incredible valuable that you can call Foretravel and either talk with the person who designed it or to someone who can find out anything you want to know about your coach. My experience with American, Entegra and especially Newmar has been that the owner and I frequently spend days trying to find someone who can figure out what they actually put on the coach and then (if and when I or we find it ourselves and they are told what is there) they are sometimes not able to figure out which of several different ways it might have been wired or plumbed (no build documentation for that item).

Americans, Entegras and Newmars all have sharp corners on their slides (many scars to prove it) and easily accessible (through the slide openings) bellies full of ants, geckos and tree frogs. Not so with Foretravels.

I know that the Fleetwood American Eagles and Heritage now have the Aqua Hot as an available option, at least from 2012 on, as opposed to the earlier years where Fleetwood often used the Hydra Hot with the small volume tank and the small electrical heating element. That small setup is hard on neighbors, in any park, because it requires the running of the Hydra Hot, and its associated diesel fumes, each time water is drawn for even a quick, simple shower. Standard Foretravels have enough tank capacity and electrical heating element capacity to avoid this.

Americans have yards of gooey, chemically unstable electrical tape holding their power seat connectors together. But the connectors (on several years at least) are built too short and pull apart when the seats are swiveled. It is a major task to rebuild them, especially without drawings and Decatur's guidance is that it could have any of several different connectors and wiring designs and they aren't sure which one was used.

Jeff, that's a few of many dozens of examples that I could give you. As John has said, nothing will equal a FT in handling. AS Michelle has said, the outboard air bag design (and IFS) lead to unquestionable ride and handling superiority. Only Newell and some Prevost conversions (Liberty and Millenium) will come close. I've been around them all and driven them all. But, the Newell and Prevosts are vastly heavier, lethargic, different design philosophies, bigger bucks and are generally, far less friendly to full timers.
I don't know your level of "hand's on" interest or what level of involvement you are looking for (owner only, operator, driver, engineering, mechanic, routine preventative and corrective maintenance, some, all, none?). Carol's suggestion to go to the factory and "Drink the Kool-Aid" may be far more meaningful. You may then immerse yourself to the appropriate degree and move forward accordingly.
I'd be pleased to help more if any of what I have is of value to you.
Sincerely,
Neal

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #10 – March 27, 2013, 11:01:30 pm

Neal, did you also have the opportunity to help with any Wanderlodge LXi's in the 2000 to 2003 vintage? Just curious.
Dick

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #11 – March 27, 2013, 11:27:38 pm

Quote from: Dick S – March 27, 2013, 11:01:30 pm

Neal, did you also have the opportunity to help with any Wanderlodge LXi's in the 2000 to 2003 vintage? Just curious.
Dick

Dick,
There are a couple at RiverBend, but I've not gotten involved with any here. Just one in NH. That task was straight forward, but required some factory support
Factory support was decent. It still existed in the Perry GA area, at that time.
That's gone now and I don't know how the purchase of the "intellectual property" and spares by Parliament in Clearwater FL has turned out. They have also filed and passed through bankruptcy since I last looked for support.
I have driven BB LXI's and they are even heavier and more lethargic than Newells and Prevosts. The exception would be the BB M38's "aluminum uppers" coach experiment that BB tried for a few years (and then abandoned).
Not much help, Dick. Sorry.
Neal

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #12 – March 28, 2013, 03:05:15 am

After selling top of the line rv's for almost twenty years and I was able to take the used rv's out to use personally for extended trips my opinion is different and stops around 1995. Seems nothing has changed. The better made ones other than Foretravel are gone or no longer better made.

I was and am an off roader and dry camper so my extreme uses show any limits in the coaches.

The best fit and finish were always Foretravel and even more extreme was country coach.

Cc was was a welded unibody coach. Foretravel is a bolt together out of sub assemblies coach.

The Foretravel flexes. The cc does not. Foretravel was lighter because of it in the early days.

No manufacturer of chassis will mount the suspension bags in line with the tires because of the potential liability if a tire fails twenty years later. So the narrower suspension sways more on corners and opposing truck traffic causes coach upset and weaving.

I personally showed monacos executives the spread air bags long ago at the la rv show and as they had to build their own chassis at that time they thanked me and copied it with great success. Poor dimensional build quality was there unfortunate byproduct. Measuring with tape measures kind of stuff.

All rail coaches used outriggers across the frame to hang the storage bays "saddlebag" style. Less insulation in the compartment floors and walls and the rail obstructed the bays.

Tanks were up and down the chassis versus left and right close to the rear axle in a non rail chassis.

As to why everyone did not build like cc and Foretravel my info was the chassis builders gave the coach builders the chassis on credit terms. Some very long term. So to build your own you had to pay off all the chassis and then spend your money to engineer your coach with the chassis integral in the body shell.

I was out of rving for 18 years with no thought of a coach until my old friend and salesman roger Tischendorf called me and asked if I wanted a mid door unicoach u320 40' with the redtop 450, aquahot and flat floor and dual pane windows with the thicker walls. Hmmmm,.

Drove the coach and bought it with a few warts. I was the sales manager and the product guy. And sold every brand in the business except vogues. ,

Lots of details and upgrades are being done on my 97 but it brings a smile on my face every time I drive it. And use it.

I am proud of CM and Marie and Ray Fore for building this coach. Enough so I would buy it well used with things that need addressing without a second thought.

The older eagles actually drove well and had nice floor plans but personally I would not have purchased any rail coach other than a marquis for the build quality. Or a cc or the Foretravel.

The drive ability and build quality outweigh the other points after a few coaches. Hard for a Foretravel owner to change horses.

The well used coach I purchased makes me very happy to own as its faults are all fixable systems not basic design issues.

I appraised used rv's for a living for many years and told countless customers I would pay for their used coach exactly how well made it was.

Bought many a used Foretravel sight unseen. Rare to have a problem. Other brands? No. Needed to see it and drive it and sometimes run it through the shop first.

Bob

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #13 – March 28, 2013, 08:14:25 am

True story. Was looking to buy a 1999 American Eagle, negotiating price with dealer. Saw a 1989 OREG 36' advertised locally. Said what the heck, no clue what that was, pictures looked good, lets go see it.

Always have liked to buy quality that has already taken the depreciation hit. Saw FT quality vs. the Eagle and in a moment of passion decided to go FT. On my third, and glad of it! Probably a while before Dave Head gets a chance to buy it. Rather upgrade than trade.

Not perfect, what is? But the best for me.

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #14 – March 28, 2013, 08:15:33 am

I am on my third too and am upgrading as well.

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #15 – March 28, 2013, 08:18:58 am

Parliament today is small and focused on service and consignment. Not a lot of techs, but I think the ones they have left know what they are doing. They seem do do more Prevost work still than FT or BB.

Saw a handful of Blue Birds there last trip, mostly consignments.

Buddy had an older Blue Bird for years, he seemed to like it. Heavy and slow though compared to my last two FT's.

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #16 – March 28, 2013, 08:54:53 am

Quote from: Dick S – March 27, 2013, 11:01:30 pm

Neal, did you also have the opportunity to help with any Wanderlodge LXi's in the 2000 to 2003 vintage? Just curious.
Dick

Dick, I have always been fascinated by the Wonder Lodge. However I think you might want to talk to James Stallings about it if you are still in NAC. While having some work done at Xtreme the last couple of years we have seen two Blue Birds in that 2000 to 2003 years you asked about. They were truly beautiful coaches but each was setting in their parking lot for a very long time while awaiting mechanical/electrical repairs. The first coach had electrical problems so severe that a tech was brought in from out of town to try to get the coach running. He indicated that there were so many complicated systems and so much redundancy that once something went wrong it was almost impossible to trace down. What should take hours or even days to fix on other coaches was taking weeks of trial and error and random parts replacement. He said he would never have a Blue Bird for that reason alone. The second one also had unknown electrical problems and was still there when we left. I haven't spent much time on the Wonderlodge forum, Wanderlodge Owners Group - Powered by vBulletin, but I bet you would get a lot of information there regarding upkeep.

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #17 – March 28, 2013, 09:44:58 am

just sitting here at a park in issaquah wa. reading this thread.
parked beside me is a 1986 grand villa that is absolutely
gorgeous. nuff said

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #18 – March 28, 2013, 11:23:27 am

I remember lusting over the Wanderlodges until I read that they were WAY over legal weight.

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #19 – March 28, 2013, 11:27:30 am

WOW!!! Thank you ALL so very much for your INFORMATIVE responses!!!

I purchased my specific make and model coach as a friend, who can literally work on anything, already owned one for two years. He liked the '97 Eagle as it was the last year of the purely mechanical / electronic-less Cummins C8.3, 325 HP engine coupled with an Allison transmission. And, I truly believe they were definitely built better back then as compared to what they put out now! Mine has beautifully crafted walnut woodwork to which the new cannot compare.

And, yes, I have personally done all my own work - with guidance from my friend. Mechanically, I replaced the alternator, thermostats, PAC-brake, new KONI brand shock absorbers, Haldex automatic moisture ejectors on air tanks, dash ac compressor, dash ac condenser fan, added remote fuel filters kits to engine and genset, replaced both rear air bags and brake chambers, added LED parking lights run separately for overnight rest area parking, new door grab bar, and of course ALL the filters and fluids, and more that i cannot rattle off at the moment. On the interior, I hung new flat screen televisions, installed a home theater system, installed LED lighting in nearly every location, replaced every bright brass plumbing fixture with new oil rubbed bronze plumbing fixtures, replaced the toilet, re-wall papered, new carpet, new oil rubbed bronze shower enclosure with rain glass, (those last 3 are the only items I paid someone else to do), recovered all the window valences, installed new day night shades, installed new microwave, recovered dining chairs with Route 66 material and more. With all the work I have done over the past two years, it would be tough to trade off except for something bigger and substantially better, and only if we decide to full time in the future, which right now we intend to do.

I will plan and look forward to a trip to Nacogdoches for a tour! It is less than three hours away. With all family in Texas, that is another reason for my interest in Foretravel - they would be here for help when and if necessary. I sincerely appreciate each reply - SAFE TRAVELS to you all! Jeff...

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #20 – March 28, 2013, 11:32:05 am

You might also enjoy the remarks from James Stallings concerning his Prevost/Country Coach and all the issues with it, starting with the slide issues and of course the biggie "electrical gadgets", Never a dull day, always challenges, never ending.
Dave M

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #21 – March 28, 2013, 11:33:36 am

Forgot two questions... What is the "outboard" air bag ride system? I googled it but could not find an answer... If anyone has a photo shot, that would be great too... Also, are Foretravel slides dependable overall? Thank you again!

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #22 – March 28, 2013, 11:45:55 am

The airbags are located as far to the outside of the chassis as possible, pretty much inline with the suspension travel. When they're mounted inboard, they are at a mechanical disadvantage (they are at one end of a lever and the wheel's at the other) and simply can't damp the suspension movement as well. Months of shopping, and testdriving many, many older coaches from lots of different manufacturers taught me a great deal about brakes and suspension and chassis and running gear, and the more I drove stuff, the narrower my choices became. So here I am with a well cared for survivor, that I think is comparable to a Rolls of similar vintage. It doesn't have as many bells and whistlles or as much bling, but it's built well and has class. As nice as this '89 of mine goes down the road, I can only dream about how a new Nimbus carries itself!

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #23 – March 28, 2013, 12:06:10 pm

Just to add to Twobus: for a 2 axle coach there are 8 airbags, one in front and one in back of each wheel (or duals).
You just see them in the photo in this post: Rattle-Rattle

Re: Late Model Foretravel Coaches vs. "The Competition"

Reply #24 – March 28, 2013, 12:25:09 pm

We are the owners of James Stallings old coach. His wife, Jennifer, told me they wish they had never sold it to Carol & Jeff Savournin from whom we purchased it. They purchased a Prevost and had all sorts of problems. We are very happy with the Foretravel. I spent my career in the vehicle and equipment world and can recommend Foretravels for build and ride quality. I think you will be happy with one.

Keith

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