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Topic: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation) (Read 711 times) previous topic - next topic

Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Quote from: J. D. Stevens –

Check your coach to see if the retarder activates the brake lights when engaged with the joystick. It does not on our coach.

There is a relay that can be wired in to make the brake lights operate with the retarder on the earlier coaches. I think that most 97 and 98 and up had this factory installed. Some place I have the diagram of how to install the relay
previous 1984 35 ft ORED 250 HP 3208 Cat       
previous 1998 40 ft U295 CAI 325 hp Cummins
previous 2003 40 Ft u320 build #6140 450 Cummins M11.                                                         
1999 Mazda Miata
Ron, Nancy, Tipper the cat, Max The dog
1997 U 270 36 ft build number 5174 8.3 Cummins

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #1 –
MOT installed the joystick on our 1997 U295 after we bought it in 2010. Factory installations may operate the tail lights with the joystick. Your results may vary. It's worth a check on each coach so the driver knows whether she (he) is signaling a stop with the joystick.
J D Stevens
1997 U295 CAI 36' Build #5085
2002 Subaru Outback
Motorcade 16869
Bellville, TX

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #2 –
One more thing. On my 1999 U295 using the joystick to brake takes it off cruise control.Even if the joystick was an add on  for safety both the tail lights working and coming of cruise should go hand in hand . Without the tail lights the drivers behind have no idea that your stopping and if you stay on cruise the retarder is working againest the engine.I have a problem with Foretravel or Allison if this is how they installed the system.Gam
joseph gambaro
1999 U295 36'

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #3 –
If brake lights don't activate with joystick, retarder won't come on if cruise control is activating accelerator. Retarder will come on if accelerator goes to "zero position." In short, steep hills the cruise control and retarder will take turns trying to keep the speed constant.

It's probably better for the joystick to activate the brake lights. I expect OEM installation sets that mode of operation. Check your coach. Some joysticks activate brake lights. Our does not.

J D Stevens
1997 U295 CAI 36' Build #5085
2002 Subaru Outback
Motorcade 16869
Bellville, TX

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #4 –
This is only my opinion but If the joystick will brake independent of the brake pedal, and doesn't activate the brake lights when used it has to be illegal.Gam
joseph gambaro
1999 U295 36'

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #5 –
Joystick activated brake lights independent of brake pedal
Tim Fiedler    2025 LTV Unity MBL on Order
2000 Chevy Tracker 2 Door Convertible 4WD Now lifted 4.5"
1985 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston
Murphy Rebel on wheels with 175HP Titan
Cessna P337
1980 48' Westport MY (!/4 Share)

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #6 –
When Foretravel realized the need to have the brake lights energized with the joy stick is when they started installing the relay for the brake lights and if your coach does not have that then when the joy stick was added the relay should also have been added. I would think that Mark Harvey has that wiring diagram and it is possible that foretravel has the kit that is needed to fix the problem
previous 1984 35 ft ORED 250 HP 3208 Cat       
previous 1998 40 ft U295 CAI 325 hp Cummins
previous 2003 40 Ft u320 build #6140 450 Cummins M11.                                                         
1999 Mazda Miata
Ron, Nancy, Tipper the cat, Max The dog
1997 U 270 36 ft build number 5174 8.3 Cummins

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #7 –
Yes, on my coach (with factory installed joystick), the brake lights are activated by retarder activation.

If I forget to push the joystick fully forward, and then activate the cruise control, I get a reminder on the next downgrade. The cruise control backs off the throttle, the retarder kicks in, the brake lights come on, turning the cruise control off.
Tom Lang K6PG (originally  KC6UEC)
and Diane Lang
2003 38 U295 build 6209
2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit Ecodiesel
still have tow-ready 2006 Acura MDX 
Temple City, California
Motorcade 16681 California Chapter President
SKP 16663 member of SKP Park of the Sierra, Coarsegold California
FMCA F071251
Retired electrical and electronic engineer

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Tom Lang –
Yes, on my coach (with factory installed joystick), the brake lights are activated by retarder activation.

If I forget to push the joystick fully forward, and then activate the cruise control, I get a reminder on the next downgrade. The cruise control backs off the throttle, the retarder kicks in, the brake lights come on, turning the cruise control off.

Not saying you should do this, of course, or thats is safe or legal, but mine has the wire to the relay for the brake light disconnect unhooked. Xtarder  works on cruise. 

Did a similar  thing twenty years ago on 1991 3176 cat marquis. Customer preference software from cat after delivery had the jake come on without the brake light  disconnecting the cruise control. Or they did not come on.  Can't remember which as I was not behind the coach.  Not from beaver or gillig.  Cat dealer.

Added a 2,4 or 6 cylinder select  panel next to the drivers seat on the sidewall so the amount of jake braking could be adjusted without turning off the cruise. The 4 cylinder mode was perfect for 6% interstate grades.

Customers loved it.  Both feet flat on the floor driving  up and down hills at 65mph towing at 37,000 combined actual weight at 8.25mpg. 

Same idea on the xtarded Foretravel. 

Bob
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Caflashbob –
Not saying you should do this, of course, or thats is safe or legal

Suggesting irresponsible modification is not welcome on this Forum. 
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Michelle –
Suggesting irresponsible modification is not welcome on this Forum.

All right.  No problem
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #11 –
I know there are a lot of jake brakes and exhaust brakes not wired to turn on brake lights... I don't see anything illegal. It's auxiliary braking. Not main or only braking
The selected media item is not currently available. Dave Head & Megan Westbrook
Titusville, FL - The Great Outdoors
'98 270 buying this month
Toad is a 2018 F150 XLT

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Michelle –
Suggesting irresponsible modification is not welcome on this Forum. 

I believe we should know of the possibilities of such mods. Many of us bought pre-owned coaches and should be aware of possible mods made by the previous owner.  For instance, my coach came with a mod to allow the front television to operate while driving.  It also came with a mod preventing the backup monitor from switching to the side cameras according to the turn signal.

Previous owners can do all sorts of strange things.
Tom Lang K6PG (originally  KC6UEC)
and Diane Lang
2003 38 U295 build 6209
2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit Ecodiesel
still have tow-ready 2006 Acura MDX 
Temple City, California
Motorcade 16681 California Chapter President
SKP 16663 member of SKP Park of the Sierra, Coarsegold California
FMCA F071251
Retired electrical and electronic engineer

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #13 –
You can receive a ticket for having a brake light or even a tail light not working. At the state safety inspection tell  them you have a retarder system that can stop your coach without activating your stop lights and see if you pass. tell the driver of the semi that runs into the back of you on that 8% down grade that it's OK to use a retarder without tail lights. Or even better tell his attorney.Most state laws Say a person shall not operate any licensed vehicle without a signal device to indicate an intention to stop or suddenly decrease speed,visible from the rear at a distance of not less than 500 ft.operate.Gam
joseph gambaro
1999 U295 36'

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #14 –
There is a difference between emotion and the law. Auxiliary braking systems do not qualify as a chassis braking system. I think it's not a bad idea to have the brake lights on, but these braking systems DO NOT rapidly slow a vehicle. If you add an exhaust brake there is NO requirement (or instructions provided by the manufacturer) to tie it into the brake lights.

If it was the law, Jacobs Engineering and Pac Brake would definitely be all over it with disclaimers. They would be a civil lawsuit target.

I've also been passed by plenty of unmuffled jakes on moderate downhills with no brake lights showing.

I get that you feel strongly about it...
The selected media item is not currently available. Dave Head & Megan Westbrook
Titusville, FL - The Great Outdoors
'98 270 buying this month
Toad is a 2018 F150 XLT

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #15 –
I think the brake lights are wired to come on because the
retarder is quite a bit more effective than an exhaust brake
or a jake brake. but don't most states and provinces require
the 4 ways flashing if you are proceeding up or down a grade
slowly. (40mph)

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #16 –
My PacBrake is not wired into the brake lights. It essentially operates as a lower gear; which would also not be wired into the brake lights. I do not keep it activated all the time even in the mountains but use it as necessary in addition to the brakes to keep the speed under control; not necessarily to "slow down" the vehicle.

This is identical to how I would keep the vehicle speed under control in a lower gear.

Craig
1993 U225 36' Unihome GV with PACBRAKE exhaust retarder, Banks Stinger and Solar Panels.
Toad: 1999 Jeep Wrangler 2-door soft-top.

"No one has ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke."

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #17 –
DOT standard #108 current as of Apr 12 2013 .Stop lights must be activated upon application of the vehicle service brakes. Brake lights =MAY ALSO BE ACTIVATED BY A DEVICE DESIGNED TO RETARD THE MOTION OF THE VEHICLE. I think key word is MAY.Gam
joseph gambaro
1999 U295 36'

Re: Brake lights with retarder activity (split from Re: Retarder Operation)

Reply #18 –
And the other keyword is the "must" below.

It's no accident that two different words are used. That's how requirements are written so as to be clear.

best, paul

Quote
DOT standard #108 current as of Apr 12 2013 .Stop lights must be activated upon application of the vehicle service brakes. Brake lights =MAY ALSO BE ACTIVATED BY A DEVICE DESIGNED TO RETARD THE MOTION OF THE VEHICLE. I think key word is MAY.Gam
1999 U320 40' 1200 watts on roof. 12cf AC/DC Cold plate fridge/freezer. VMS 240 CL Honda Element