General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Topic: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac) (Read 932 times) previous topic - next topic

General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

May 04, 2013, 12:05:07 am

Now that you guys make me use brain cells I have not used since the late 80's here's what I did countless times.

The spicer steering box had a "spool" that needed to be recentered. Otherwise the coach was being pushed off center. And the alignment was trying to correct it. Coach wandered.

Countless customers I mentioned this issue to from all brands removed the box from the chassis and recentered the "spool" and then remounted the box to the chassis, centered the steering wheel, then attached the Pittman arm and link.

At least that's what my memory recalls.

No idea how a spicer 710 realignment that is right out of the chassis manual applies to a unicoach but my solid axle 97 drove straight as an arrow today. No wander. Bottom of steering wheel.

In crowded freeway traffic today I was able to turn on the a/c controller and program both airs to operate as the gen was on while driving. Not recommended btw.

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #1 – May 04, 2013, 11:13:26 am

Quote from: Dave M – May 04, 2013, 03:57:01 am

uneducated, unknowing big headed opinions little facts.
Dave M

Whoa hoss, don't get your panties in a knot. Here's a few facts, you can agree or not.

Alignment to factory specifications is not magic these days, it's pretty much an automated process with modern alignment machines. It's either set to spec or not, and the digital readout of the process tells you when you're got it. Does that mean no skill is involved? No, a mechanical evaluation of all components should also be part of the job as an alignment of worn out parts will not give the expected outcome. It's reasonable to expect the mechanic doing the work to be competent, workmanlike and skillful.

The factory spec alignment brings satisfaction for some, as many have reported, but not so for others. Unfortunately, I fall into the other category. This is fact, not opinion.

Handling characteristics can be subjective..."I think it takes too much correction to keep it between the lines" or, objective..."it pulls to the right." The pull is easy to correct. Not so easy is the other as everyone has different expectations and each coach is different also.

That's it for fact, it's my opinion that the performance of any production machine can be improved. In the case of my coach after two alignments and still no satisfaction I did improve performance. When I hear of others who steer with one hand on the bottom of the wheel, able to turn around and adjust the thermostat and live to tell about it, I realize I'm not there yet.

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #2 – May 04, 2013, 08:07:17 pm

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – May 04, 2013, 11:13:26 am

That's it for fact, it's my opinion that the performance of any production machine can be improved. In the case of my coach after two alignments and still no satisfaction I did improve performance. When I hear of others who steer with one hand on the bottom of the wheel, able to turn around and adjust the thermostat and live to tell about it, I realize I'm not there yet.

Almost sorry to post that but i was hot in traffic and needed to turn on the airs.

Years ago a company called Macaster? Alignment systems made an appointment with me as sales manager for Foretravels store in California. I volunteered to use a couple of used ored coaches for a test. Both coaches had had the steering boxes reset correctly and I thought drove well.

Their product was a large spring device that clamped over the tie rod ends and pushed the ball back into the socket.

Worn ends caused tire wear and vibrations.

Guess what it worked. Cupped tires on customers coaches wore back to flat.

My personal truck has 120k on the clock and I am seeing wear on the inside of the front tires. Bet the tie rods are worn.

Macallister? Mentioned wear starting at 20k miles.

Its possible I think to put a load against the worn tie rod end and when released the coach could dart.

They also precision adjusted the front axle wheel bearings and checked the chassis for dog tracking.

I always wondered since I drove the prototype unihome and unicoach about the bushings in the suspension. Originally they were a type of plastic(ureathane?) with a bolt through the middle.

Wear? Was always on my mind. Any movement of the arms in the bushings would cause front end movement.

We used to put metal bushings in Chevy a arms instead of the rubber to get more precise alignment. Why not these?

What's in the newer units? Is the bushing fixed on the inner and outer sides and the movement all in the material? Or does it rotate on the bolt? Mine squeaks as it goes up and down. Have not checked the out of adjustment Koni's yet as they need to be turned up a couple of clicks to compensate for the 100k miles then I will see what's in the suspension bushings next.

I vaguely remember replacing some bushings on old unihomes way back when.

You guys are realiy making me use old brain cells.

Somewhere in the system is an issue.

Possible that the entire bolt together semi Monoque unicoach flexes somewhat.

Country coach and Monaco welded the chassis to be one piece. Monaco crudely as far as the dimensions while country coach lazer aligned everything.

My 97 flexes as did all my chassis Foretravels and the unihomes. I drove them off road many times and had several windshields pop out at the corners.

Push them back in as the shell returned to the same basic dimensions after the twist was removed.

My 97 I think got tweaked due to two issues causing the tire to rub under the right front and had to be driven 50 feet on a uneven surface with the tire rubbing under the floor enough to twist the coach and have the upper right windshield pop out of the gasket.

Need to twist it back carefully as its maybe 80 percent returned to the correct alignment.

I understand the 99 and up have modded suspension travel and/or the body raised on the chassis to prevent this contact and probably allow room for the slide mechanisms under the floor.

I asked alot of questions in my Rv days from all the brands. Got some interesting info back then.

Bob

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #3 – May 04, 2013, 10:05:12 pm

Quote from: MemoryRoads – May 04, 2013, 09:07:58 pm

Bob, nice post. You're comment ("Somewhere in the system is an issue." ) has been in the back of my mind, and now that I'm reading this thread of alingment/steering issues rekindles thoughts.
I had been unhappy with what I thought... should be...better and easier steering control, on the coach I bought last year, a 2001 40' U320 with low miles, but/and, no 'real' problem, just too much attention to keeping her straight. I felt even after the alignment that I asked for..that too much attention was required to drive straight... wandering might still be an issue.

FOT /wayne worked on it last fall and it did improve. I was happier..........but kept to myself, that I thought it should be better.
Toe In, I think, if increased a tad, can keep it better on track and if so, what should one care about tire wear... "We never wear these tires out!" Could a bit more Toe-In benefit what we drive? Michelins are soft and ride nice... but could 'that'minute flexing, make a difference in the attention that we seem to address to steering?

This is probably going to take more than any alignment stuff. No one has ever mentioned anything about suspension components. Its a moving part.

Original unihomes had a wander from the steering shaft being offset from the box.

The early coaches had a narrow steering box mount versus the wide body. The shaft came up from the floor than was at an angle to the drivers seat. I think my 97 is the first year the frame mounting position for the steering box is straight down to the box.

I remember rotating the steering shaft until at one position the coach steered better. Something about the shaft u joints. Foretravel braced the steering shaft later as it went up through the floor.

This was a business thing for me. If the coach drove better I sold more. Filled every tank on an ored to ride better.

Someone needs to see what exact bushing are in the suspension arms. I mentioned to James triana in oct 1987 at the unihome introduction seminar my interest in the bushing setup. Can't wait to see him after 26 years. He will remember our conversation I am sure.

Especially as I can do most of it word for word. Weird memory of things that later turned out to be important.

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #4 – May 04, 2013, 10:39:16 pm

I am wondering how many thousandths of wear in the rod ends will offset the 1/32 toe-in. Not knowing the suspension geometry and unwilling to go out in the rain, I am betting .005-.007 wear will erase most of th toe-in. I am curious how many miles are on the RVs that are experiencing the wandering.

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #5 – May 04, 2013, 11:55:38 pm

Adding toe in made a major improvement in tracking stability on my coach. I've monitored tires for unusual wear that would be caused by excessive toe but find none. Miles are getting close to 110K, tie bar and ends are new Meritor parts.

Quote from: Caflashbob – May 04, 2013, 08:07:17 pm

They also precision adjusted the front axle wheel bearings and checked the chassis for dog tracking.

I've wondered about those wheel bearings, don't know if they're routinely checked during alignment or not.

Quote from: MemoryRoads – May 04, 2013, 09:07:58 pm

Toe In, I think, if increased a tad, can keep it better on track and if so, what should one care about tire wear... "We never wear these tires out!" Could a bit more Toe-In benefit what we drive? Michelins are soft and ride nice... but could 'that'minute flexing, make a difference in the attention that we seem to address to steering?

This comment made me remember my scooter ridin days, I had a bike that was an absolute terror to ride on grooved payment. It followed the grooves and there was no way to overcome it without the possibility of a major tank slapper. Changed tires and guess what...you didn't even notice the grooves except for additional noise. I strongly suspect tracking would be changed, possibly for the better, by running non siped, straight highway ribbed tires. Not in a hurry to pull off 4K worth of Michelins to find out though my next set will be more basic tires.

Everyone's expectations are different. I am spoiled by the quality in this coach overall, it's outstanding. Maybe my expectations for handling are unreasonable, but I want it to handle on par with the rest of the quality inherent, a tall order. I see a whole lot of other brands wandering far in excess of what I experience. I also note some FT owners who routinely drive 6-700 mile days, that would be a superhuman feat if the handling wasn't pretty darn good so I know its achievable. If I knew an alignment guru who would go through it, piece by piece, adjust, drive, adjust, drive which I think is what it'll take to optimize things I'd go to him. Failing that I'll keep plugging away and factoring in the good comments from other owners on this forum.

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #6 – May 05, 2013, 09:33:30 am

Since I am never in a hurry to get somewhere, the speed being between 55 and 60 mph also adds to Forrest's steering stability. By this I mean wind resistance is way down when compared to 70 mph and higher. This wind resistance and buffeting on the very LARGE surfaces of any coach will throw it off track and steering inputs have to be made to keep the coach on the straight & narrow.

I need not mention here that the quality of the road & surface pitch have a lot to do with staying straight & narrow when barrelling down the road.

No amount of suspension component tweeking will prevent a windy day from making your life miserable at the wheel.

And, yes do maintain your front end. It only makes sense to do that portion of preventive maintenance performed by folks you trust.

Just my opinion.

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #7 – May 05, 2013, 11:22:24 am

I found that the tag made windy days much easier. My 34 foot U270 would move a bit on windy days, but now it take a very large gust to move me. Weight and a Tag make a difference I would think.

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #8 – May 05, 2013, 11:37:56 am

Quote from: Peter & Beth – May 05, 2013, 09:33:30 am

I need not mention here that the quality of the road & surface pitch have a lot to do with staying straight & narrow when barrelling down the road.

Interesting comment about the road pitch. One of Oshkosh's secrets was they set the caster different on the font axle side to side to compensate for the crown of the road. Spec was in the glovebox door on the old coaches.

Old Midwest roads had more crown I think than current roads. Maybe?

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #9 – May 05, 2013, 11:58:55 am

This happened. I got the front aligned and that made a great help. I did not even know that it really needed the help, just thought it smart to have this checked, done on a coach we bought. I imagine that included ride height.

But after getting it aligned, another found that the ride height was a bit off. I had some work done, asked them to test drive too. When I picked up the coach there was a note in the seat....."I adjusted the ride height after I test drove the coach for you as you asked, I adjusted it (it was off only a little) and now it will drive like a Foretravel." And I could tell a difference.

Just what I learned. Some mentioned the ride height, gotta check that too as well as those toe, camber, etc if want the overall best ride.

One other thing. Perhaps not so important on a FT?? A friend bought HR a dozen years old. Did not drive well in any way. Found alignment really needed help. But the other thing was the shocks were gone, just no benefit. So at least on some SOBs, gotta check those when buying.

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #10 – May 05, 2013, 12:16:56 pm

Quote from: Michael & Jackie – May 05, 2013, 11:58:55 am

Just what I learned. Some mentioned the ride height, gotta check that too as well as those toe, camber, etc if want the overall best ride.

If the coach does not come back to the same exact height every time it goes through a bump it will wander.

If you drop the coach and the steering wheel moves its because the Pittman arm is getting shorter and longer as the box and arm are not exactly in the same arc.

How to test this? Easy. Measure your coach from any convenient surface to the ground. Then drop the coach. Let it reinflate. Measure again. Do it several times.

Notorious for ride height valves to stick or wear exactly at the correct height after a few million cycles.

I normally replaced them on high mile older coaches. The chassis coaches had the steering box mounted on the frame and the short Pittman arm added to the wander through dips.

I trained the customers to hold on to the wheel. As the coach went into a dip and the suspension compressed the coach went to the right. As it came out of the dip and over extended it went back to the left. If the ride height valve was good and did not have a "dead" spot in its travel the coach would come back to straight if you just held on.

I can see a lot of you dropping your coaches and watching for how much the wheel turns and does it come back to the same exact ride height.

This was fun 25 years ago. The boys then had fun. Nothing is changed. I just have a new crop of boys....

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #11 – May 05, 2013, 07:58:14 pm

Nice to see 'teeth' getting into a subject that is important, like comfort levels while driving.
-As has been said, tags add stability, but I don't have them, as is the case for most of us.
-I'm an old fart I guess and my brain does not work as fast as it once did... This IS an issue for some of us, on Some of the Issues in this forum. but....not so for Side Winds. They can effect us all and I certainly do not expect an alignment to take care of strong winds from left or right. never, so do not expect this to be a part of this discussion. It's a no brainer.
-Road Pitch should be somehow configured into all alingments. but... Are they? Interesting point!
-Wear of mechanical components is not just about mileage, but also where the coach was driven. Mountains/loading/lot's of turns or Interstate straight as an arrow milage?
-We have 'long' vehicles, like buses and trucks, so none of this is really 'new thoughts', it's just about the 'details' and who is going to pay attention to them enough to make us smile.

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #12 – May 07, 2013, 12:06:59 am

Quote from: Caflashbob – May 05, 2013, 11:37:56 am

Interesting comment about the road pitch. One of Oshkosh's secrets was they set the caster different on the font axle side to side to compensate for the crown of the road. Spec was in the glovebox door on the old coaches.

Old Midwest roads had more crown I think than current roads. Maybe?

Interesting! Wayne (at FT) told me that he set ours with a little caster bias to compensate for road crown and to reduce the wander when in the slight ruts in the asphalt caused by lots of heavy trucks.

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #13 – May 07, 2013, 01:04:09 am

Quote from: Dave Katsuki – May 07, 2013, 12:06:59 am

Interesting! Wayne (at FT) told me that he set ours with a little caster bias to compensate for road crown and to reduce the wander when in the slight ruts in the asphalt caused by lots of heavy trucks.

If you drop any coach from ride height a little bit watch to see how much the steering wheel unwinds.

The geometry of the steering systems various parts means the steering box's Pittman arm end and rod do not have exactly the identical arc the suspension goes through. Hence the movement.

I see a few lights coming on out there. If the shocks are soft and the coach goes through the suspension travel the drag link gets shorter and longer relative to the suspension assembly and makes the coach drift left or right.

My buddy was trouble shooting my hwh system today and at the extreme dropped position the steering wheel was moving quite a bit.

The relationship is optimized for ride height I think but any up and down suspension movement causes some left and right coach wander.

Cars have the steering gear exactly parallel to the suspension arms for this reason.

If you mount the steering box and Pittman arm that low to exactly duplicate the suspensions movement its too low and easy to damage. So its always higher.

Chassis coaches have this steering wander much more. Why? The steering box has to be mounted to the frame rails as the chassis has to be drive able from the transport vehicle to the factory yard.

Oshkosh expressed interest in building a unihome type setup and asked cm if he minded. He told them to go ahead.

Lee pogue from Oshkosh told me he was surprised cm did not mind. Cm laughed when he talked to me later about that story. Why?

Could not be shipped. Had to be built on site. Oshkosh dropped the idea.

Hard to ship a semi Monoque chassis as its the body is the frame.

Also requres a large amount of cash flow to discontinue using a chassis supplier and build everything yourself.

Another story for another day. Fun times. You guys get the benefits.

And me finally.

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #14 – May 07, 2013, 08:55:50 am

The seller of my soon to be U295 called me yesterday. He is back in NAC, and had taken the coach from FT to Power's Tire for valve stems. He drove it into and out of town on the city street direct route. He said, " I think that FT maybe has already done the front end alignment on the coach". I requested FT do an alignment, and will be paying for it when we pick up the coach. He said to his DW, "that the coach drove and steered better than he remember". But he was not sure the work had been done, as there is other work that has not been done. I had been told FT had indeed done the alignment, and all parts are good.

He had never had the front checked before, and had just installed new tires about 500 miles ago, before finding a newer U320. I just wanted it check while it is at FT, before heading west. Good thing we did, as it seemed to change for the better.

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #15 – May 07, 2013, 01:48:39 pm

Noting Calflash Bob's comments about ride height valves, I'm starting to wonder if mine are out of spec. There seems to be a fairly large range where the travel light is lit. Starting up with depleted air pressure the travel light comes on initially but the coach continues to raise a significant amount while the travel light stays lit. Could this indicate out of spec valves? I understand there is a deadband, does anyone know what the vertical range of deadband should be?

I've finally got access to a large flat slab of concrete and am going to attempt to check these valves and precisely reset ride height if it needs it. Also, finally, get my headlights aligned properly.

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #16 – May 07, 2013, 02:13:50 pm

Chuck,

The travel light does not indicate position. It indicates mode. From the HWH 600 Manual:

TRAVEL LIGHT: This light will be on if the leveling system
is off and the ignition is in the "ON" or "ACC" position. See
"PREPARATION FOR TRAVEL".

I tilt the coach hard left with the HWH controls when I dump tanks. On leaving, the travel light illuminates as soon as I cancel level mode. It takes a while before the coach is really at ride height, even when the air pressure of above 90 psi.

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #17 – May 07, 2013, 03:58:49 pm

Bob,

Sure you could drive a Foretravel front and rear sub chassis. Just do it like they delivered the first 1000' ore boat, the Stewart J. Cort, from a southern shipyard to the Great Lakes (it would not fit through the Welland Locks). It was nicknamed "Stubby"

First you do #1:

Then you add the middle section:

Keith

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #18 – May 07, 2013, 09:45:07 pm

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – May 07, 2013, 01:48:39 pm

At a buddy rally in the late 80's Foretravel had the skeleton steel framing of a unihome on display. The diagonals in the walls. Required the side walls and roof to be moved according to cm and ray fore. Ask James Triana as he was there. Surprised they showed the actual structure.

I've finally got access to a large flat slab of concrete and am going to attempt to check these valves and precisely reset ride height if it needs it. Also, finally, get my headlights aligned properly.

Yes they stick. Yes they wear. millions of cycles. They lose the center sensitive position. Anyone with steering issues need to test and probably replace the valves. I tested every used coach for this issue and replaced a percentage of ride height valves in the coaches.

Made more sales and my use of the used coaches was much more fun.

Koni's need readjustment to compensate for the wear on all red tops. They are rebuildable with a special spanner wrench to open the shock up. Unless you are rich and like spending two coach bucks to replace adjustable for wear shocks?

They are set at number 1 out of the box. Most manufacturers put them on as they come of the box. One additional "click" of adjustment per 50k miles was what the koni man told me.

Out of adjustment at 200k miles was my understanding.

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #19 – May 07, 2013, 09:52:45 pm

Quote from: J. D. Stevens – May 07, 2013, 02:13:50 pm

Chuck,
The travel light does not indicate position. It indicates mode. From the HWH 600 Manual:

Well shucks. Guess I should have known that. Thanks for the edification.

Quote from: Caflashbob – May 07, 2013, 09:45:07 pm

Yes they stick. Yes they wear. millions of cycles. They lose the center sensitive position. Anyone with steering issues need to test and probably replace the valves. I tested every used coach for this issue and replaced a percentage of ride height valves in the coaches.

Makes sense, there's a lot of mechanical action going on with these valves. Any tips on how to test one to see if its out of spec?

Re: General alignment discussion (split from Re: Alignment in Nac)

Reply #20 – May 07, 2013, 09:59:48 pm

Drop the coach and measure the height after it comes back up. Repeat several times. Both sides and the rear? Raise the coach to max. Let it come down to the neutral position.

Measure. Shocks can stick as can suspension components. Remove shocks to check for sure. Normally the valves are it.

Bob

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