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Topic: Basement fastener updates... (Read 1100 times) previous topic - next topic

Basement fastener updates...

Well, like most everything else associated with this bulkhead Project ::) , torquing the basement vertical roloks has turned into something more than I anticipated. Big surprise, Ha! In setting up to replace the few roloks that have stripped during the initial torquing, checking the ones nearby produced several more stripped bolt holes. I decided that I couldn't live with the uncertainty of fasteners that might let go at more inconvenient time once the coach is actually being used. It made sense to me put through bolts on all of them. Since I had about 20 or so of 4" long the high-dollar stainless steel high-strength fasteners from ARP left over (because I ended up going with 4 ΒΌ" bolts to be sure that I would be able to catch the threads if I ever needed to remove them in the future), I decided to replace all of the full-length wall roloks. This repair is quite similar to the usual do-it-yourself bulkhead repair methods described elsewhere in the forum. True, it is a fair amount of extra work considering the number of bolts to be replaced, but having the waste tanks out of the way would make it considerably easier. It would be possible to do it from the storage compartments, but that would necessitate removal of the Joey bed in order to have access to backside of the frame in order to drill the holes in the fiberglass to place the nuts. In the front, the propane tank is already out and so are the 8D coach batteries, so I have access from that side of the bulkhead. I finished doing the ones on the aft storage compartment bulkhead and have taken a few pictures (naturally ;D ). Ultimately, I know the coach will be that much stronger for this extra bit of work and I will sleep better knowing that my gold (or lead) ingots will not be falling out on the first bumpy road. I was able to use through bolting on 15 of the 16 fasteners. The only one that I couldn't do because of converging framework welded to the backside in that location, I tapped out to the same size and used a shorter (2.5") bolt torqued to 240 inch-pounds (With 15 other 170,000 PSI High strength through bolts to support the basement, I felt no need to test this one to failure of the threaded hole!). It is interesting (but not at all surprising) to note that for travel used diagonal braces in the compartment full-length walls. There is also one section on the street side of the utility compartment that has an inch and a half of plywood backing the fiberglass instead of insulation. Undoubtedly this is where some equipment could be fastened if so optioned.

After looking around at mcMaster-Carr and other places, I decided to make my own rectangular washers. I found some heavy duty mounting brackets made by Stanley at the local home improvement store that already had six holes in down the center line, and by slicing them up and enlarging the holes, was able to fit the washers to my needs. It would have been cheaper to just get some flat stock and make my own from scratch, but having 30 or to do it seemed worth it to save myself a bit of work.

I'm currently working on the forward storage compartment bulkhead and there are a few differences, so undoubtedly I'll be posting some more as I learn about it.
Don
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Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: Basement fastener updates...

Reply #1 –
Don... your usual high quality work along with thinking out of the box for the project. Thanks for the write-up!

Craig
1993 U225 36' Unihome GV with PACBRAKE exhaust retarder, Banks Stinger and Solar Panels.
Toad: 1999 Jeep Wrangler 2-door soft-top.

"No one has ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke."

Re: Basement fastener updates...

Reply #2 –
Don,

I deeply appreciate all of the information you have provided as you have progressed through your bulkhead repair odyssey. Now, the only real question is whether or not I should have something else to be concerned about with our Foretravel!

Seriously, your documentation of your journey has been most educational for all of us here. Thanks!
David and Carolyn Osborn
1995 U320C SE 40' Build 4726 Feb 1995
FMCA 147762
Motorcade 17186

Re: Basement fastener updates...

Reply #3 –
Thanks Craig & D. J.,
I've come to feel that my knowledge about our coach is quite extensive, but in very limited areas! Perhaps areas that most Foretravel owners will never have to learn about. I look forward to expanding my knowledge in some other aspects of these magnificent machines, and soon! If nothing else, folks who have never had to deal with some of the issues I've run into, perhaps my journey through this process can serve to motivate people to not take any potential water intrusion lightly. I'm quite sure if not for ignorance of the original owners on that score, we would already have many miles under our belts and camp fire stories to share about our journeys. So at the very least, my experience with the basement and bulkhead issue can serve as a cautionary tale for those in the majority that have not experienced any of these issues.
Don
Quote from: wa_desert_rat –
Don... your usual high quality work along with thinking out of the box for the project. Thanks for the write-up!

Craig

Quote from: D.J. Osborn –
Don,

I deeply appreciate all of the information you have provided as you have progressed through your bulkhead repair odyssey. Now, the only real question is whether or not I should have something else to be concerned about with our Foretravel!

Seriously, your documentation of your journey has been most educational for all of us here. Thanks!
The selected media item is not currently available.
Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: Basement fastener updates...

Reply #4 –
EXCELLENT!

Looks like the backing washers I had my machine shop make for my bulkhead repair-- MUCH better than none (huck bolts, etc) or small round ones as they spread the vertical load on the vertical sidewalls of the box beams.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Basement fastener updates...

Reply #5 –
Superb work, as usual Don. Hopefully I will never need to do this, but you just never know. When did you say you were going to open up for business ^.^d ^.^d
Larry Warren
1996  U320 36' SBID "Lola" sold 2020
Build #4970
Motorcade #18318

Re: Basement fastener updates...

Reply #6 –
Thanks Brett. Before I settled on the scheme for welding the nuts on the box tubing and torquing the fasteners for my bulkhead Project, I did a few tests. The bottom line was that I was quite surprised at how little torque it seemed to take to cause tube deformation. The results of my tests made me rethink my scheme. I actually went so far as to ground off some cage nuts that I'd already welded onto the tubing and welded 3/16" thick angle iron or flat stock (depending on the location) to the tubing and then the weld nuts to ensure that the joint would take all the torque I wanted to give it. Pictures below... I also shot some video with my phone of the test but it never bothered to post it... So I will include a couple YouTube videos in this post and if you are so inclined, perhaps you'll find it of interest.

Don
Part I
http://youtu.be/5Vep8cPTjQ4
Part II
http://youtu.be/W1HXpIK2OR8
Quote from: wolfe10 –
EXCELLENT!

Looks like the backing washers I had my machine shop make for my bulkhead repair-- MUCH better than none (huck bolts, etc) or small round ones as they spread the vertical load on the vertical sidewalls of the box beams.
The selected media item is not currently available.
Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: Basement fastener updates...

Reply #7 –
I have been fascinated by your immense project ... but I have begun to wonder.  Are you having so much fun rebuilding the thing that you will never actually take it on the road?  When is the estimated "launch date"?  By the time you are done with things to your satisfaction, the tires may have aged past the expiration date!
Carol & Jeff Savournin
Usta have a '93 U225 36', Usta have a '95 U320 40', Usta have a '02 U320 40'
Usta have a 2006 Born Free, Usta have a 2011 Phoenix Cruiser
Usta have a 2012 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited 4dr
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life."  Steve Jobs

Re: Basement fastener updates...

Reply #8 –
Don the part 2 video said it is private, did you post it by mistake??
John H
Coachless, now use aircraft. 2003 Ford Travelair TC280 class C. Super shape. Just for 1 yr .
1994 Ford E350 ClassC,total renovation inside and out. Now sold.
2000 U295  36' Cummins 350 c/w Banks Stinger, Resonator upgrade,Solar, LED lites.Residential fridge with slide out pantry. Build 5674. Sold
ex 92 GV 022C ored Cummins. Sold
ex 95 GV240 cat 3116. Sold
2017 Mini cooper s & 2016 land Rover LR2 HSE  LUX.
jhaygarth@aol.com    SKP #130098
treat everyone as you would like to be.

Re: Basement fastener updates...

Reply #9 –
Thanks for pointing that out John, I changed it to public. I guess that's the YouTube default when it's uploaded... I didn't realize that was marked private.
Don
The selected media item is not currently available.
Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: Basement fastener updates...

Reply #10 –
Carol, thanks for your interest in my project... I would not call this having fun, just warring with my own perfectionistic tendencies in order to bring the project to a successful conclusion! I am working as hard as I can to do just that and I'm hoping for a launch date sooner rather than later... Hopefully by the end of this month at least. There's actually a rally on the 20th that I would like to make, but given the pace of progress, I'm not sure it's possible, but I am aiming for it. ::)
Don
Quote from: Carol Savournin –
I have been fascinated by your immense project ... but I have begun to wonder.  Are you having so much fun rebuilding the thing that you will never actually take it on the road?  When is the estimated "launch date"?  By the time you are done with things to your satisfaction, the tires may have aged past the expiration date!
The selected media item is not currently available.
Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: Basement fastener updates...

Reply #11 –
Quote from: acousticart –
There's actually a rally on the 20th that I would like to make, but given the pace of progress, I'm not sure it's possible, but I am aiming for it. ::)
Don

Well ... more power to you! Hope you make it to the event!
Carol & Jeff Savournin
Usta have a '93 U225 36', Usta have a '95 U320 40', Usta have a '02 U320 40'
Usta have a 2006 Born Free, Usta have a 2011 Phoenix Cruiser
Usta have a 2012 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited 4dr
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life."  Steve Jobs

Re: Basement fastener updates...

Reply #12 –
Last I posted on this topic I was in the process of doing the bulkhead in the front of the storage compartment including the dividers between the propane tank and the battery compartment which create an alcove inside the storage compartment. Those two dividers, or bulkheads, that isolate the battery and propane compartments from the storage compartment are different than the other parts of the structure. Having found diagonal steel frame members in both of the transversem bulkheads or walls at the front and back of the storage compartment, I expected to find the same in these two longitudinal bulkhead's. My analysis of the purpose of these two longitudinal compartment dividers is that they're the only structural members which keep the basement from collapsing like a cardboard box with its flaps removed while resisting the push and pull of the trailing arms attached to the rear suspension. That being the case, and I invite your comments if you have a different explanation, these two little walls are extremely important to the structural integrity of the basement. Needless to say, I was quite shocked when I didn't find any diagonal frame members inside those little walls when I checked with a magnet. In fact, there is only steel in the perimeter parts of the frame. After giving it some thought, I concluded that Foretravel must have used plywood in between the two fiberglass skins of these three-quarter inch thick walls. A quick exploration with an eighth-inch drill bit confirmed this to be the case. Besides providing extra hanging support from the floor above for this area which potentially carries a lot of weight with the diesel tank, batteries, and propane tank, these little partitions act like the flaps of a box which holds it in shape (with the help of a little tape...).

Anyway being only three quarters of an inch thick, I had to slightly change my method of putting through bolt fasteners to secure them in place. Turned out that unistrut nuts which come with a spring attached proved to be an ideal method to distribute the clamping force of the bolts coming up from below. They happen to be three-quarters of an inch wide and are about a quarter inch thick. The springs held them in place enabling me to screw up the bolt from below and then once the vote was installed, I just broke the spring off and added serrated flange locking nuts to boot. Each had originally just three roloks to secure to the basement framing, and I had added two more of each for a total of five a piece. 1 1/4 inch holes were about the smallest I figured I would be able to work with as far as getting the nuts in there, so I measured and drilled those holes and chiseled away the wood.  Since the wood wasn't integral part of this structural strength of these walls, I was concerned about weakening them by removing the material to place the nuts, so I came up with a scheme of bolting stainless steel flat stock on either side of each of these partitions to essentially class these assemblies together. I have eight grade 8 fasteners around the perimeter through the steel frame and four carriage bolts through the plywood part. I used some quarter 20 thread rolling screws to tap threads in the steel frame and added nuts on the inside part that's in the alcove. It's much easier to see in pictures then to explain in words... I filled the space around the unistrut nuts with epoxy just to keep them stable and so I could tourqe the bolts from underneath without those rectangular nuts spinning on me. That done, I had a desiderated flange nuts on top of the unit strut nuts because I figure I don't want to have to access them again, even though I could by just the removing the nuts holding the Stainless plates plates inside the alcove area.

Along the same lines, but without the structural implications of the alcove longitudinal stiffeners, I decided to use flat stock to cover up the holes in the fiberglass. This turned out to be much easier than using the plastic plugs that I bought to fill the holes because each one of those would've had to of been fitted individually since the size of the holes did not exactly match up with the size of the plugs. The inch and a half plastic plugs that I bought turned out to be actually 1 and 9/16" of an inch in diameter... go figure. Just as well as it turns out, since I didn't like the way the plastic plugs look anyway. Since there was no structural application on this part of the project, just covering up the holes that I drilled to access the backside of the framing, I went with aluminum which is not only lighter in weight than stainless, but considerably cheaper. The aluminum trim which is inside the storage compartments is held on by 10-32 machine screws threaded into the steel framing. If I ever need to access the backside of the nuts for re-torquing or what have you, they are easily removable. The aluminum flashing inside the waste tank compartment covering up the holes on that side of the bulkhead will not need to be accessed, and couldn't be without removing the waste tanks, so it is held in place with flashing cement. I used aluminum foil duct tape over the holes underneath the flashing to make sure it is sealed.

Sadly, I now have to come to grips with the reality that I won't be able to make that rally on the 20th of this month... Even though this project seems to be taking longer than Noah took to build the ark,  the launch date approacheth!
Don

The selected media item is not currently available.
Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: Basement fastener updates...

Reply #13 –
Don Have you tested the torque it takes to strip a 5/16" rolok, screwed through both sides of the square tubing using a .2764 pilot drill ? I would like to know which failed first the threads or the screw?Gam
joseph gambaro
1999 U295 36'

Re: Basement fastener updates...

Reply #14 –
Gam, the short answer is no, I haven't done a torque to failure of the 5/16" roloks... The basement framing only uses one wall of the tubing since the bolts first go through an inch and a half square tubing and the Roloks are only 2 1/2 inches long under the head. The front and rear bulkheads are different because the rowlocks only have to go through the quarter inch angle iron and some sheet metal before they enter the tubing and therefore have enough length to penetrate both walls of the tubing. The vertical rowlocks terminate in the middle of the basement bulkheads and only go through one wall of the thin gauge tubing. Most of these stripped before 15 pounds, but that was after they had been removed and replaced multiple times in my basement project. I don't use the rolok fasteners on my rear bulkhead joint, but the fronts all torqued to 21.8 foot-pounds successfully (actually, I rounded up to 22 foot pounds with no problem). According to the Semblex design tech info pdf that I looked at, the 5/16 rolok's ideal pilot hole size is 9/32" in steel. It would be an interesting experiment, but since those roloks cost me five bucks apiece, I'm reluctant to risk damaging one ::) The vertical ones in my basement all had the threads strip in the hole not on the screw.
Don

Quote from: gam –
Don Have you tested the torque it takes to strip a 5/16" rolok, screwed through both sides of the square tubing using a .2764 pilot drill ? I would like to know which failed first the threads or the screw?Gam
The selected media item is not currently available.
Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: Basement fastener updates...

Reply #15 –
The reason I ask  is that I have never heard of a rolok that has stripped it's threads . Threads in two walls of the frame tubing only have about 2/3 the strength of the screw. So the threads should strip before the screw breaks. The .2764 pilot hole will give 100% thread contact when the screw is installed .That should make for the strongest threaded connection. Gam
joseph gambaro
1999 U295 36'