Bulging

Topic: Bulging (Read 1278 times) previous topic - next topic

Bulging

June 11, 2013, 04:25:51 pm

I have seen the subject time and again but never studied it, and did a search for declamation... So I will ask...I have a couple areas toward the rear sides where I can push in the siding and it is obvious the adhesive.. if thats how the sides are put on, has turned loose... Of course moving the coach it may lay flat... How is that repaired in a couple small, 2 ft areas?

Re: Bulging

Reply #1 – June 11, 2013, 04:26:42 pm

And the search gave me no results.

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Reply #2 – June 11, 2013, 06:18:34 pm

DUB

I sent you a PM
JD

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Reply #3 – June 11, 2013, 06:53:02 pm

Quote from: dub – June 11, 2013, 04:25:51 pm

I have seen the subject time and again but never studied it, and did a search for declamation...

Declamation? Did you mean to search for delamination? or simply search on delam

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Reply #4 – June 11, 2013, 09:43:25 pm

When we had a delam, we went to extreme paint in Nac and had it repaired. Rance fixed it very good

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Reply #5 – June 12, 2013, 08:44:51 am

Man did I ever make a mess of spelling.. my bad Michelle... Thanks JD.. checking message.

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Reply #6 – June 12, 2013, 08:48:56 am

It may be tomorrow but I will give you a call JD.. and thanks.

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Reply #7 – June 12, 2013, 09:48:32 am

The right way to fix it is to grind off the delaminated section back to where it is solidly bonded, re-apply new resin and fiberglass, smooth and fill until dead level with no pin holes or craters, prime, repaint or gel coat. This is not a procedure for a non-experienced person. Find a very good fiberglass technician. I personally use Rance at Xtreme in NAC but any good boat repair shop should be able to do an adequate job with a gel coated finish.

There are DIY methods but usually the outcome is not satisfactory.

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Reply #8 – June 12, 2013, 10:51:57 am

Before I went to a lot of trouble, I think I would take some chalk and mark the area, buy a "stud finder" with a switch for metal studs. HF has a nice one cheap that works well on Foretravels. Locate the vertical metal member and mark it. Would then drill a half inch hole almost at the top of the small delaminated section. Mix some two part epoxy (flowable type in quart containers) from a paint store or Home Depot and inject a couple of ounces in through the hole giving it time to run down the inside. Place a small piece of plywood against the outside with a post or 2x4 against it with the other end perhaps against a building opposite, apply pressure and let it sit for 24 hours facing the sun if possible. If it bonds securely, fill the hole with auto bondo and sand with coarse paper it before it sets and then finish sand after it completely hardens. Mask around the hole so no decal/paint is scratched very much.

Pierce

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Reply #9 – June 12, 2013, 11:38:50 am

The method Pierce describes sounds bizarre but it does work. I've used it myself on delaminated fiberglass. Although polyester resin was probably used to layup the FT sides, epoxy resin is the best for repairing any delams. Most "fiberglass" resin is polyester so be sure to know that you're using epoxy. West Systems epoxy is commonly available at boat supply stores (West Marine, etc.) and is widely used to repair fiberglass laid up with polyester resin.

I used a syringe a veterinarian friend gave me for injecting the epoxy resin but there might be something better out there. Be careful not to drill too deeply into the laminate; you just want to drill into the void. Don't inject so much resin into the void that it causes a bulge, itself.

The advantage to this method is that it's cheap, pretty easy to do (at least for small sections) and if you screw it up the repair job is no worse than it would have been for the delam itself.

Kayak stores (not REI) can often do this repair, too.

Craig

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Reply #10 – June 12, 2013, 11:50:06 am

I've never repaired a delamination the "easy" way (most laminate on boats is more structural so issues call for the "right" way), but I can see where it might work. I concur on using a good, marine-type epoxy resin vs. polyester or cheap-type 5-minute epoxy. Reason is that you will be relying 100% on a mechanical (secondary) bond, because the time frame for achieving a chemical (primary) bond ran out decades ago (essentially within 24 hours of the initial layup). Epoxy has better secondary bonding characteristics than polyester.

As a side bonus you have a bit more control of the open (non-cured) window with epoxy (uses a hardener rather than a catalyst), and it doesn't smell like polyester does. (You can control the open time by using a slow or fast hardener, and also by cooling the epoxy if it's hot outside.) It will take longer to cure, so you need some way to clamp it while it sets. It's good to keep it off your skin, so I'd wear nitrile gloves and other protective gear.

One last thing I would do is figure out if the delamination was caused by something that should be taken care of, or if it was just a random flaw in the original layup (hence no "cause" that also needs to be fixed).

Alex

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Reply #11 – June 12, 2013, 01:02:26 pm

When drilling into the outside skin, the drill pressure may push the skin against the metal making it difficult to feel when the drill has penetrated the skin and not trying to drill the metal. A windshield installation suction cup next to the drill will keep the skin out while drilling. If there are two suction cups on the windshield installer, you can make the two parallel by using a hair dryer in the middle on the plastic handle and then bending it.

I paid $10 for my HF stud finder. It only gets one star but I found it works slick for finding metal underneath the roof of our U300 for the solar panel installation. It has controls on both sides, one for wood the other side for metal. Takes a little adjusting with the control but easy to find the exact width and center of the metal frame so the epoxy runs down the middle and secures it across the whole surface. I might inject a bit in, give it several minutes to run down inside and then a bit more just before I applied pressure. Here is the one I bought. Others brands will do just as well: Search results for: 'stud finder'

Pierce

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Reply #12 – June 12, 2013, 01:42:27 pm

Pierce, are you saying the skin is only bonded to the framework? I had assumed it was also bonded to the foam under it but if not then your method sounds great. I was planning on drilling multiple holes, syringing in epoxy and pulling a vacuum on skin from the dryer vent area to spread epoxy and provide pressure for bond.

I really wonder why the dryer vent causes delamination, sure seems to be the case.

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Reply #13 – June 12, 2013, 02:10:55 pm

I appreciate you guys taking the time in describing possible fixes.. It's not "unsitely" but if something isn't right.... well you folks know how it bugs us.

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Reply #14 – June 12, 2013, 02:22:04 pm

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – June 12, 2013, 01:42:27 pm

Pierce, are you saying the skin is only bonded to the framework? I had assumed it was also bonded to the foam under it but if not then your method sounds great. I was planning on drilling multiple holes, syringing in epoxy and pulling a vacuum on skin from the dryer vent area to spread epoxy and provide pressure for bond.

I really wonder why the dryer vent causes delamination, sure seems to be the case.

I would try the epoxy to the framework first. You said it was a small area. Would be good to see if a frame member passes through the delaminated area. Epoxy makes a super strong bond so if it does have a frame member there, that might do the trick.

Pierce

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Reply #15 – June 12, 2013, 04:12:37 pm

The area is under a window Alex but the rubber seal fits so tight I never would have thought any water would have gotten in the wall past it... certainly possible.

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Reply #16 – June 12, 2013, 04:16:21 pm

Might get lucky Pierce and have a joint of wall frame in the right spot...That would be sweet.

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Reply #17 – June 12, 2013, 04:21:13 pm

One thing to maybe clarify - and it may be obvious to those who actually own Foretravels (vs. me just hoping/shopping). Are we talking about de-bonding or about delamination? In other words, has the fiberglass de-bonded from whatever it was (presumably) bonded to (such as a backing or core material of foam or wood), or has it actually delaminated (i.e. the individual layers of cloth that make up the fiberglass "skin" have separated from each other)? In boats, it's relatively common for fiberglass to de-bond (typically water gets in and a glass skin de-bonds from a wood or foam core material), but not that common for it to delaminate (i.e. the skin layers separating from each other). Usually once the fiberglass is laid up it tends to stick together pretty well as a "single" layer, but it is vulnerable to detaching from other materials.

I might be off base here since I don't really know how the Foretravel was put together (especially in the area you are describing). My experience is with boats.

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Reply #18 – June 12, 2013, 06:46:43 pm

I think we're always (maybe incorrectly) talking about de-bonding and calling it delamination. Xtreme (Rance) told me it was always the fiberglass separating from the foam and framework.

Dryer vent - we had the same delamination (Debonding) under the dryer vent, and Rance said that's common because either FT didn't seal the vent to the fiberglass properly, or the seal comes loose over time, and water gets in under the fiberglass.

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Reply #19 – June 12, 2013, 07:43:57 pm

That makes sense to me. Many boats have cored decks, which are essentially a sandwich of fiberglass skin/core (foam or wood)/fiberglass skin (with the skin part being made up of numerous laminations). This construction results in a relatively light/stiff surface which is useful for large flattish surfaces, such as decks, that would otherwise be either very heavy or too flexy. There is (unfortunately) quite a history of issues on boats due to various penetrations allowing water into the "sandwich" which then contributes to de-bonding and, eventually, the core deteriorating (of course boats are constantly getting wet). When people rebuild these boats, they commonly seal the edges of any penetrations that go through the core by cutting back some of the core (wood or foam) and filling the "cut back" with thickened epoxy. Even though many foams are very water resistant, there is still the interface between the foam and the fiberglass.

At any rate, I'm still not familiar enough with the Foretravel "wall" to know exactly how it's put together or how I would work on it, but it does make sense that any de-bonding would be near a penetration such as the dryer vent.

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Reply #20 – June 13, 2013, 07:24:56 am

As far as finding the metal studs I used a magnet to find the frame work for bulkhead repairs. Perhaps it would work the same on the sides.

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Reply #21 – June 13, 2013, 09:35:15 am

I have an alluminum support directly behind and in center of my loose spots.. this is good... In trucking we have a load securing device used inside van and refer trailers called load locks... they are made of alluminum and have rubber feet on each end with a jack lever that applys pressure to the walls.. Will put one leg on the shed wall and the other on the MH wall and apply the pressure.

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Reply #22 – June 13, 2013, 10:18:05 am

Ramble off subject a bit but it may be helpful to someone else.. I found these 2 spots that we are going to re glue while compounding the gel coat.. That's when I found the bit of "give" on the 2 to 3 ft area of glass... We are using 3m 06060 extra cut rubbing compound with a variable speed polishing wheel.. The man I have hired (my bad shoulder) wont take 5 days of that treatment is in his 3rd day as it is a slow but effective. Really waking up the finish and it is bringing back a really nice finish with shine. Will follow up with a coat of hard shell wax... I had planned to trade the coach for a later model when in fact this is all the coach I need.. The way it is shaping up I have about decided to keep it. I like the 280 fine so really a bit of fever is my reason for thinking of trading for a mid to late 90's. Truth is the past 4 years I have barely used this one but hope to change that late summer.. Hired some more office help in an effort to give me some degree of retirement time... Point is 3m 06060 extra cut compound is a good product.. a bit pricy at 48 bucks a quart after tax but a quart goes a long way.

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Reply #23 – June 13, 2013, 03:05:55 pm

Quote from: bbeane – June 13, 2013, 07:24:56 am

As far as finding the metal studs I used a magnet to find the frame work for bulkhead repairs. Perhaps it would work the same on the sides.

My bad aluminum sidewall studs, magnet no workee.

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Reply #24 – June 13, 2013, 03:32:17 pm

ummm.. no workee bad... on a night when there is lots of humidity and dew I can see the outlines of the side support studs... that is odd. when the condensation dries off obviously the outline goes away.. That's how I saw the support behind my spot this morning. I made a small mark for reference.

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