2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

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2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

June 23, 2013, 06:11:15 pm

Sorry in advance for the length of this, but I'd like to pick the brains of anyone who is willing to help. I am confused as to what has happened, why it happened, what the circuit looks like on a U320/U295 of the same vintage, and whether my planned solution will work and be at least similar to the U320/U295 methodology.

My U270 has only a single switch in the bath to turn on the water pump...which is annoying since there are more times when I need such a switch in the kitchen, and we routinely travel/leave the coach with the water pump off. U320s use a relay and multiple switches according to a reference on my B-2126 schematic. The schematic refers to B2179, 12 volt wiring diagram to show the circuitry, but my U270 doesn't have that one (it has a B2198 instead).
Can someone send me a pdf/jpg of the section of B2179 that covers the water pump circuitry?

I amassed a bunch of details as to how to control a circuit by adding an impulse relay, grounding the relay coil momentarily to change the relay state with as many switches as I want. Then I started looking at the coach itself.

Issue/problem #1 is that the switch in the bathroom uses 2 white wires, which I assume at this point are +12 volts (probably they are swtching the positive side of the circuit instead of negative so that the little green light can come on when the switch is on).

Then I looked inside the basement fiberglas panel at the bus and breakers there and I was completely astounded. There sits a Finder Relay, a 20.21 impulse relay, with Terminals 1 and A1, already hooked to the circuit breaker marked "Water Pump." But with NO wires on terminals 2 and A2! Why would I already have a relay (the spendiest part of the circuit) in the coach, half-hooked up, but just left there unconnected? There is a second white wire on that circuit breaker, and I believe that is what is actually being used to power the pump as it goes into a black loom of 2 wires that rises out of sight. The second wire in the loom is spliced to another wire that heads off in another direction...probably directly to the + side of the pump. There is also a white wire that is bare, clipped and just hanging in that area, and I cannot tell where it is headed or connected to.

Conclusions: I suspect the two white wires in the loom are the two wires that go to the switch in the bathroom. A continuity tester will let me know for sure if they are. I don't know what the clipped wire could go to, unless it is headed to a second switch that doesn't exist in my coach...another reason why I'd like to see the official U320 wiring diagram. Maybe I have a terminated wire somewhere in my kitchen that I can add my new switch to, instead of running another wire pair?

My plan: Absent anyone telling me it won't work, I think I can take the +12 wire OFF of the A1 side of the coil and insert the two wires that run to the bathroom switch there (one to the wire I take off, and one to the A1 relay terminal, so as to break the relay coil circuit. Then I need to replace the switch in the bathroom with a momentary switch. The indicator light in the bathroom would still work, but only a flash. Then I need to take the wire that goes to the pump off of the circuit breaker and put it on the 2 terminal of the relay. Finally, I need to ground the A2 termnal. While most relay circuits break the ground side of the relay coil with a switch, breaking the positive side wouldn't seem to be an issue, particularly given the minimal amount of current that will be pulsing thru the line. Then all I need to do is run a wire from the circuit breaker (maybe that is why there were two?) to the second switch and back to A1 on the relay. Of course, both switches have to be replaced with momentary contact SPSTs...and not the current switch.

Any thoughts?

? Anyone can show me the diagram? This is a 2002 coach, so I don't really know which U320s would be similar. Thanks to anyone who read all this stuff. I appreciate any help I can get.

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #1 – June 23, 2013, 07:20:50 pm

Hi Brad,

You might get some really good answers by calling James Triana. He would have the schematics for your build number.

Jim

2002 U320

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #2 – June 23, 2013, 07:52:09 pm

I second calling James. Make sure you have you unit number when you call.

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #3 – June 23, 2013, 08:06:40 pm

Brad, FWIW
On my 95 U280 there are Three switches that control the water pump.
One is at the kitchen sink
one is at the bath sink
and the third is at the Wall in the water bay.
I don't have access to the wiring diagrams now and I would suggest that you call James at NAC and ask that he get them for you.
I SUSPECT that all these coaches are basicall the same then the construction depends on level of amenities. In other words a 270 may have only one water switch while 280 etc has two or maybe even three. This is also apparent in that some 270's have a doorbell and some don't and so on.
Good luck
Gary B

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #4 – June 23, 2013, 08:33:00 pm

I do already have my schematics for my coach...the difference that I am trying to duplicate comes from the U320 schematics that aren't really for my coach, but would appear helpful.

Upon closer inspection in the basement, the panel actually has a circuit breaker for an Aqua-Hot on it...which wasn't even optionable on a U270 from what I read. So I conclude that the same bus board was used for all coaches, but the schematics are recorded differently, based on the model and how they are completed. The extra U320 circuits don't show on mine (Like this relay as well as the automatic dump/fill valves that aren't on U270s). The velchroed-on relay just doesn't make a lot of sense to have been placed there, as those aren't cheap, but I'm glad to have found it. It does work when tested.

Since my post, I have verified that the two white wires I suspected are indeed to the bathroom switch and are carrying +12 volts. The disappearing wire goes directly to the pump. The cut wire remains a mystery. I still wonder if I should go ahead and leave the switch on the + side of the relay circuit (which isn't aa great design...or use the white wires (taped green on the ends) to be able to use the - side of the relay. I was hoping a U320 schematic would make it clear. Do you guys with a U320 have a green light at the water switch?

Just saw your note Gary. No, they wire the U270 very differently than the others, because a single control switch is easy and all they needed was two wires to a SPST switch to complete the circuit.

Much like a 3-way light circuit in a house, when you go to 2 or more switches, a different method is required other than just completing a 2-wire circuit. The house needs a "traveler" wire...and a 4-way is even more fun to set up...and the switches themselves are different. The easier way in an RV is to use impulse relays like Foretravel did for the higher models. (The light switch at my entrance and over the sink control the same light...and they use the identical Finder impulse relay.) You could have 100 simple momentary switches to control the single impulse relay the way they have done it.

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #5 – June 23, 2013, 08:57:40 pm

Quote from: Brad & Christine Slaughter – June 23, 2013, 08:33:00 pm

I do already have my schematics for my coach...the difference that I am trying to duplicate comes from the U320 schematics that aren't really for my coach, but would appear helpful.

Is this what you need. I do have green LED's on my water pump switches.

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #6 – June 23, 2013, 09:52:53 pm

Quote from: Barry Beam – June 23, 2013, 08:57:40 pm

Is this what you need. I do have green LED's on my water pump switches.

BINGO!!!! Thank you Barry! I should be able to duplicate that now.
I see they did the indicator lights very different than mine, which are simply connected between ground and the side of the switch that receives power when on, and instead, take their power from the energized relay terminal. Thus you get the light on whenever the pump is powered. I think I can make that happen too! That was perfect!!!!!!!!!

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #7 – June 23, 2013, 09:54:58 pm

If your water pump does not work, the first suspect would be the relay, probably on the opposite side of the coach from the pump. If the green light does not come on, the relay is more than likely the reason. Pull and clean the connectors and terminals. This has fixed mine more than once. Barry's schematic may come in handy. Our relay is located on the bottom of the panel behind the cover in the wet compartment but yours may be different.

Pierce

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #8 – June 23, 2013, 11:43:49 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – June 23, 2013, 09:54:58 pm

If your water pump does not work, the first suspect would be the relay, probably on the opposite side of the coach from the pump. If the green light does not come on, the relay is more than likely the reason. Pull and clean the connectors and terminals. This has fixed mine more than once. Barry's schematic may come in handy. Our relay is located on the bottom of the panel behind the cover in the wet compartment but yours may be different.

Pierce

My pump works fine...but as designed for a U270. When i'm done with my modifications, thanks to Barry's direction, it will function as per a U320. I may even add a third switch to the water bay just because it sounds like a good idea. Beats yelling into the coach asking my wife to please turn on the pump.

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #9 – June 24, 2013, 12:58:28 am

I think this might be the kind of thing you are looking for...
00-00189-000 [00-00189-000] - .00 : RV Power Parts Plus, Discount store for
According to the literature that came with our new Aquatec pump, you can use two switches without a controller but for three you need a controller. I have this on my upgrade list, but it is a ways off as other priorities are screaming louder, so I haven't delved deeply into it yet.
I hope this helps, but I could be all wet (just like when I did my first pressure check on our plumbing

)
Don

Quote from: Brad & Christine Slaughter – June 23, 2013, 11:43:49 pm

My pump works fine...but as designed for a U270. When i'm done with my modifications, thanks to Barry's direction, it will function as per a U320. I may even add a third switch to the water bay just because it sounds like a good idea. Beats yelling into the coach asking my wife to please turn on the pump.

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #10 – June 24, 2013, 01:45:45 am

That does look like the more modern method, Don. I followed Barry's schematic and generated a list of instructions for myself once the ordered switches appear. It came out fairly easy to use the existing wires and re-purpose the switch to its U320 function. Once I get it actually completed, I'll post my little instruction sheet.
I really was taken aback when I realized that in my U270, the entire pump current load (10 amps on mine) was actually being routed from the circuit breaker at the bus, up through the coach to the bathroom, through the switch, back down to the circuit breaker area, then across the coach to the pump. That is quite a run. With the U320 method, it goes from the bus, towards the pump, thru the relay, then directly on to the pump. Probably a 10 ft run of wire as opposed to my likely 30-40 ft run.

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #11 – June 24, 2013, 02:21:53 am

Even more of a mystery, since on our 99 U270, there is a latching relay (impulse relay) for the water pump, and the original connection from the kitchen is a momentary on-off switch and an LED from the pump. I paralleled the kitchen switch-LED setup for a bathroom switch, and it was quite simple. No idea why FT would have done anything different for an 02 U270.

I believe the 97 U270 is the same as ours (per conversation with Barry and Cindy).

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #12 – June 24, 2013, 03:40:29 am

Am with Dave K on the latching relay, sounds just like the relay that controls the bathroom overheadlight lighting, a momentary button, push it once for on and hit it again for off. not uncommon in the control world PLUS it does not have any electrical draw just to hold it in, only powered while changing state.
Would look for replacement if needed at WW Grainger.
Simple
Dave M

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #13 – June 24, 2013, 06:32:06 am

I had a latch relay on my 99 u270 by the kitchen. I find i usually just leave the pump on when i am in the coach and using tank water.

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #14 – June 24, 2013, 12:25:09 pm

Over the years, in talking with various folks, I have discovered that there were a lot of "interesting" things going on at Foretravel in the 2002 model year.
This is just one more puzzle, especially if they were using the relays on earlier U270s. The schematic in my owner's manual, Drawing B-2198, is dated 9/10/01 and clearly shows exactly what I found: a single SPST with no relay. Very different from the drawing Barry supplied. (The reference back to the Automotive wiring drawing, B2126, shows the wire going to the circuit breaker. B2126 is the same for all three models.)

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #15 – June 24, 2013, 11:16:33 pm

Quote from: Brad & Christine Slaughter – June 24, 2013, 12:25:09 pm

Over the years, in talking with various folks, I have discovered that there were a lot of "interesting" things going on at Foretravel in the 2002 model year.
This is just one more puzzle, especially if they were using the relays on earlier U270s. The schematic in my owner's manual, Drawing B-2198, is dated 9/10/01 and clearly shows exactly what I found: a single SPST with no relay. Very different from the drawing Barry supplied. (The reference back to the Automotive wiring drawing, B2126, shows the wire going to the circuit breaker. B2126 is the same for all three models.)

Quote from: Dave Katsuki – June 24, 2013, 02:21:53 am

Even more of a mystery, since on our 99 U270, there is a latching relay (impulse relay) for the water pump, and the original connection from the kitchen is a momentary on-off switch and an LED from the pump. I paralleled the kitchen switch-LED setup for a bathroom switch, and it was quite simple. No idea why FT would have done anything different for an 02 U270.

I believe the 97 U270 is the same as ours (per conversation with Barry and Cindy).

From my perspective, no mystery here guys.

Think about what was going on in 2001 and then 2002/2003/2004.

The '97, '98, '99 and '00 build philosophy was KISS with respect to keeping the major design and build items identical across the U270, U295, U320 models, in order to reduce the engineering complexities, the supplier complexities and the build costs.

The vast majority of the major parts, including the wire bundles were essentially the same, differing only for items such as the power plant, heating, AC units (number), entertainment units, number of batteries, etc.

The sprung and unsprung frames, were the same

The walls, the floors, the windows, the doors, the A/C's, the vent fans, the dashes, etc, etc were all the same. The U270's and U295's even shared power trains, generator, batteries, heating units, hot water units, unless a U295 was optioned otherwise.

The differences, then, were in the various model price targets and the quantity/"scale-up" of accessories and cosmetics as well as the base cost of the wood used, as well as things such as the horizontally hinged bay doors versus the "bus hinged" bay doors, the tire plys necessary to carry the added weight, etc.

That means that the U270's have much the same wiring in the trays or in the general vicinity of the termination points that a U295 or U320 would have. As examples, I seem to have all of the bedroom wiring for a remote start of the Generator - just no switches/indicators, the wiring for the remote locking of the bay compartment doors - just no actuators or control center, etc. etc. Hhhmmm; I wonder if the bathroom and utility bay wiring is there for the water pump impulse relay? It may well be there in the center tray! As far as I know, the U270, U295, U320 models all used water pump "impulse relay" design, over the '97 to '00 model years, just as they all used the entryway/kitchen overhead lighting switches and "impulse relays".

But the Motorhome World was changing rapidly in 2001. FT had just implemented single slides, well behind the industry rush to 4 slides, had gone to full body painting and was testing multiple slide designs including the necessary frame and tag axle redesigns.

9/11/2001 forecast the changes to the economy and the RV industry. Competition for the greatly reduced number of customers became fierce and more highly focused on $'s. Because of the higher ENGINEERING, COMPONENT and BUILD quality, FT's have always had a higher price point and that wasn't faring well. 2002 and 2003 saw the onset of the end cap problems. FT, doing what it had always done in terms of customer satisfaction, had tremendous rework costs which had an even more devastating impact on the FT bottom line.

So it is no "mystery" that there were a LOT of changes made in engineering and build factor cost reductions starting in 2002. As the economy spiraled and the end cap correction expenses gnawed away at the company during 2002, 2003 and 2004, many things changed, as those of us who have been around the FT family for a long time fully realize.

During the 2002 model year and for several years after, FT felt tremendous pressure to reduce costs, in every area, engineering, suppliers, manufacturing, sales, service, FT staff, motorcade group, warranties, etc, etc.

With little imagination, I can see the U270 water pump impulse relay and the extra wiring disappearing in a heartbeat.

Also with little imagination, one can see why there is a large and loyal following of these '97 through '00 (01's differ due to the single slide option) FT's since they were (of the Bus-Style, high-production era) the peak years of FT focus on highest possible quality/customer satisfaction/loyalty and just prior to the need for extreme focus on scale back and cost reduction in order to ensure Company survival.

No mystery guys, just survival.

Neal

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #16 – June 25, 2013, 04:14:12 am

Neal,
Thanks for the info, Now it makes more sense why many in the Nac area tell me, the 01 is the last of the good units, not sure when the quality thing came back, but am guessing in the area of 2006 and up. (guess on my part).
Must be one reason my coach has not needed much, just upgrades, a HWH hydraulic pump & HWH air pump over my 5+ year experience with 50K+ miles.
Color me lucky

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #17 – June 27, 2013, 10:55:45 pm

Project is finished...for the two switches...and I posted the two schematics and the text of the steps of the process as an album. The selected media item is not currently available.

I wrote that out to keep track for myself, but if anyone can use it, there it is. I will likely add another switch to the service bay area, but haven't gotten to that yet.

Foretravel Owners' Forum For owners and Fans of Foretravel Motorcoaches September 14, 2025 ...

2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

June 23, 2013, 06:11:15 pm

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #1 – June 23, 2013, 07:20:50 pm

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #2 – June 23, 2013, 07:52:09 pm

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #3 – June 23, 2013, 08:06:40 pm

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #4 – June 23, 2013, 08:33:00 pm

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #5 – June 23, 2013, 08:57:40 pm

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #6 – June 23, 2013, 09:52:53 pm

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #7 – June 23, 2013, 09:54:58 pm

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #8 – June 23, 2013, 11:43:49 pm

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #9 – June 24, 2013, 12:58:28 am

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #10 – June 24, 2013, 01:45:45 am

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #11 – June 24, 2013, 02:21:53 am

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #12 – June 24, 2013, 03:40:29 am

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #13 – June 24, 2013, 06:32:06 am

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #14 – June 24, 2013, 12:25:09 pm

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #15 – June 24, 2013, 11:16:33 pm

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #16 – June 25, 2013, 04:14:12 am

Re: 2002 U270 Water pump switching/relay issue (LONG)

Reply #17 – June 27, 2013, 10:55:45 pm

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