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Leveling Issues

Symptoms:
The Driver/Rear air bags are empty and the coach is resting on the tire. The coach is on the level asphalt pad I just had constructed. The clinometer in my phone says the driver's side is low by about 7 degrees.

History:
We have spent the summer up in the UP!! Mostly in the City of Marquette Tourist Park in various campsites. Pretty level sites and have not had a problem leveling the coach.
We did wake up one morning and the Excess Slope and d-side and read lights were on.
Cranked up and re-leveled. DR side may have been resting on the tire after that.

Supposition:
Because the coach goes into travel mode just fine and goes through the leveling process (albeit winding up with the Rear driverside resting on the tire) I am leaning toward the six-pack manifold and one of the solenoids.

I have not crawled under (60 degrees and moist) but I may soon steel myself.

Beside dirt dauber nests and/or clogged ports what else do I look for?

Is there any danger that I will lose more that the leveling at the rear if I can find level enough spots on the way back? I may just schedule a stop at HWH on the way to Texas for a system inspection.

Thanks.

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #1 –
Quote from: TheBrays –
Symptoms:
The Driver/Rear air bags are empty and the coach is resting on the tire. The coach is on the level asphalt pad I just had constructed. The clinometer in my phone says the driver's side is low by about 7 degrees.


Elliot - is this the result you get when you first level the coach, or is the coach initially level, then sinking on the driver/rear as the coach rests?  IOW - is it leveling OK or is it thinking it's level but it isn't?

Quote
Beside dirt dauber nests and/or clogged ports what else do I look for?

Dirt dauber would be clogging exhaust ports so those air bags wouldn't release air.  It wouldn't be the low side/corner but rather the opposite that would be clogged if that was the problem.  The coach tries to level first by releasing air at the high side and when it thinks all the air is out and it's still not level, it then pumps up the low side.  If it can't reach level after pumping for a predetermined length of time, you'll get "excess slope" - basically telling you there was an inflation timeout.

A common leak point is the o-rings that seal the solenoids to the 6-pack manifold.  Soapy water will help you check these.

Michelle

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #2 –
Morning Ellott,
A plugged exhaust port would not let air out of that bag, not your problem.
So it appears that one solenoid valve is leaking letting the air out of that bag.
If it's the travel solenoid the coach wouldn't hold travel height after tank air pressure goes down. Don't know if travel height will hold long term.
If it is the raise solenoid that bag would go up until tank air pressure goes down. Again not your problem.
Looking like the dump solenoid is leaking. You should be able to leak check that at the exhaust port on the manifold. If you get the coach up and shut down, get out of travel mode you may be able to hear a leak at the exhaust port.
The only way for air to get out of that bag is through those valve unless you have a bag or line leak.
JD

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #3 –
If the air springs/bags inflate properly that probably means the problem is a leaking solenoid valve.  In the travel mode after the engine is shut off and before leveling does that side deflate?  With the engine running and slow leak (bag, valve, or air line) the engine can supply enough air to keep it inflated.  If it is a slow leak. it will take some time to deflate.  There are 3 solenoid valves for each side.  They are closed with no electrical power provided.  One opens to send air to the ride height valve in the travel mode, the other 2 control level while parked.  One sends air to the bags, the other releases it.  If a valve is leaking internally, you may not be able to detect that unless the air is coming out of the exhaust port.  A solenoid valve can be removed, by disconnecting the wiring to it and unscrewing.  It can also be disassembled to check for debris and condition of valve seat.  I don't believe any repair parts are available.  I did resurface the plastic seat on one using a lathe about 3 years ago and it has worked fine since.

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #4 –
I have been going over the postings and I think it sounds like the Exhaust solenoid is the culprit.
I have the solenoid P/N  Michelle used just in case.
Jerry have you got the number of the one you used.
(I don't know if HWH changed them between '96 and '03)

I may take the coach over to the RV service here in the UP and I may see if I can schedule an R&R at HWH.

thanks to all

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #5 –
Howdy Elliot and Mary, 
  We recently stopped in at HWH and had an intermittent leveling problem repaired.  The tech's at HWH are very professional, customer centric and, at least for Motorcoachs, reasonably priced. They R&R'd an electronic board, drove coach on the rack, did a full  blown inspection of all the leveling components, we were out the door for $167. We also overnighted at their service center.  50a hookups. 
  I think Moscow would be right on your way home to Austin. 
Good Luck, Dave and Nancy A

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #6 –
Quote from: TheBrays –

Jerry have you got the number of the one you used.
(I don't know if HWH changed them between '96 and '03)


Sorry, I don't have a part number.  You might be able to remove just the valve body, by first removing the coil which is held in place by a nut.  However FT has the wiring all laced up nice and neat all the way to the connectors, and that will make it difficult just to remove the coil.  If you are close to HWH, sounds like the easy way to get it working. 

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #7 –
I will do some more diagnostic work and look harder at our return schedule.

Mary won't let me crawl under the coach but we'll see.

As I understand the procedure I would:
1) crank up the engine and build air pressure so I can raise the coach
2) block the 4 corners with the 2x2 tubing and chock a wheel
3) dump the air so I can take out the existing solenoid
  (or if the air bag is exhausts all by itself just remove it??)

4) check/replace O-rings if I don't just replace the whole device.


I did find HWH RAP1940 Air Valves on e-bay for $50. 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&vxp=mtr&item=310738602823

OR

obey DW and get someone else to do it (the GET MY PEOPLE TO DO IT approach).

I'll let you know

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #8 –
Elliott,
Even if the air bags leak out you still need to dump air pressure to remove a solenoid valve.
But I would check for bubbles with soap water at the dump exhaust port before removing that valve.
JD

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #9 –
Elliot

Once the valve body is removed from the six pack housing, the surface of the housing needs to be burnished smooth and clean.  Grease the new O-rings before re-installing valve.

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #10 –
Got a chance to gather data on the leveling issue.

1) Cranked engine and let air up
      No change in coach height or level.
      Coach resting on Driver rear with no air in bag.

2) Turned off Level mode and  controller went into Travel mode
      Coach raised to travel height on all 4 corners

3) Turned off engine
      Coach stayed at Travel height

4) Hit Level button twice
      >:( Nothing happened!!!
      Lights indicated level (should—spent big bucks to get level pad!!)

Made scatological comments and scratched both ends...... :headwall:
 
Shortly later noticed that the coach was creaking.

5) Level indicator shows yellow right and rear lights
      Went back to DR and found air almost gone out of bag.
      Heard clicking from location of 6-pack and felt pulsing while touching bag.

6) Started engine, hit Level button twice
      Coach leveled to new position (actually OLD position- resting on rear right tire.)

Mary won't let me get under to spray soap suds.....

Right Exhaust???

Thanks

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #11 –
Elliott,

When I read your description of events to Marilyn (we chuckled at your excellent presentation), she suggested leveling in travel mode with the engine running (since you are on the high dollar level pad), and not choosing level mode after you shut down the engine. If I understand the system correctly, that will take the leveling valves out of the system supporting the coach with the air bags. It may give you another point of information.

If my suggestion doesn't make sense, I trust that the experts will clarify the issue.

Sounds to me like you may have one or more leaky leveling valves. During the recent year we, with help form FOT, have replaced three of the valve/solenoid units on our 1997 coach. Two were for leveling and one for travel mode. More industrious folk might have rebuilt them. The new units have been working well.

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #12 –
  Elliott, if you are staying for a while, why not just dump the air if you are on a level pad.
  Richard B

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #13 –
Took the coach to a nearby RV shop armed with my 1/4" thick pad of Forum comments and HWH manuals ready to identify and fix the leaking solenoid(s).

I start to demonstrate to the mechanic what the problem is (I'm still in Travel mode with the engine on).

He says "Turn the engine off and lets see what happens..."
He says "I hear air escaping..."
He says "Look! There is a hole in your air bag!!!" :facepalm:

I have 8 air bags coming from South Dakota toward the end of the week
http://www.truckspring.com/Products/Firestone-Reversible-Sleeve-Air-Spring__W01-358-9448.aspx
 
I'll replace the rear ones here and the fronts at FOT later.
A bad six-pack would have been much cheaper.
                                                 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Abel and I have discussed (over drinks as I recall) one of the problems with the Forum,
to wit, it feeds the hypochondriacal regard we have for the coach...

Barry says I have this problem.......    I think maybe I do to!!
Michelle says I had to do this.....        I think maybe I do to!!
Davis says I just did this ....              I think maybe I should to!! :P

I guess I'll have to delay installing the resonator for a while....... :(

Oh well...  later

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #14 –
D'oh! FOT found one leaking air bag on our 1997 coach in January. I paid them to replace all eight bags. We found some three leaking solenoids after we replaced the air bags. We also replace some regulators and check valves. Coach holds air much better now.

If you've not replaced your fuel lines yet, do it. Air bags and fuel lines are expiring on the 1995-1998 coaches.

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #15 –
Quote from: TheBrays –

I guess I'll have to delay installing the resonator for a while....... :(

Oh well...  later


As for the resonator, I found no speed improvement in climbing long grades. Maybe it helps more on the bigger engines. I did get a nice improvement in throttle response and a new storage area next to the engine.

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #16 –
Quote from: J. D. Stevens –
D'oh! FOT found one leaking air bag on our 1997 coach in January. I paid them to replace all eight bags. We found some three leaking solenoids after we replaced the air bags. We also replace some regulators and check valves. Coach holds air much better now.

If you've not replaced your fuel lines yet, do it. Air bags and fuel lines are expiring on the 1995-1998 coaches.

Dave (and others),

Are there "signs" one should look for before replacing fuel lines and air bags?  Ours is a '96 and no problem in either area so far (knock on wood), but neither would I want fuel lines or air bags to give out in the boondocks...

Grant

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #17 –
Quote from: TheBrays –
                                                 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Abel and I have discussed (over drinks as I recall) one of the problems with the Forum,
to wit, it feeds the hypochondriacal regard we have for the coach...

Only if it's the same year coach.  Not that I'm stalking Barry B., Dick S., etc. and their posts :-X  (are you guys now watching/listening for your parking brake light/alarm?  and ours has been well-behaved ever since I posted)

To put a positive spin, you know we all want to know who the RV shop is that put practical debugging into practice and found your problem without taking advantage of the situation.

Michelle

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #18 –
Grant,

Look for cracking of fuel lines at connectors.  Also watch for hiccups after starts indicating air infiltration.  Look for cracks in generator fuel lines at flex points.  Watch for cords showing in air bags.  Spray with soapy water and look for bubbles.  Based on past posts, you are due for both.  On my coach the bags were done a year ago.  FT checks the fuel lines twice a year.

Re: Leveling Issues

Reply #19 –
Thanks Brett.
Grant