Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Topic: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts? (Read 1950 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #25 – November 14, 2013, 11:11:18 pm

Thanks again for all the info: Technical, thoughts, links, opinions. It's all helpful. Right now i'm not sure whether or not I will pursue this coach (more to do with the exterior paint - not sure it's "me," and so not sure this is the coach I want to "work for") --- but if I do, I have a good idea of what i'm looking at in terms of the bulkheads. On the other hand, if I decide to keep looking, this information will also stand me in good stead for those coach(es).

It is a very nice coach in many ways, and I'm sure someone is going to love it (if not me).

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #26 – November 15, 2013, 09:54:52 am

We went for weeks without seeing anything interesting. Then, there would be several that would show up for sale. I still remember the photos from the 40 foot U300 in Seattle. They were still living in it (in chaos) and their dog tore a huge hole right in the middle of the sofa. They said it could be "easily repaired."

Wanted top dollar on top of everything.

Most of the coaches were in California or Nevada so it was easy to go look. The coach we did buy could not have been much further away. The deal of a lifetime you missed generally comes around again pretty quickly if you keep checking all the possible web sites. This is the time of year that everyone has taken their summer trips and are not looking forward to the monthly storage fees.

Pierce

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #27 – November 15, 2013, 10:11:25 am

Alex, FWIW.....I have NEVER heard of FOT buying a 96 coach outright. They will not even take that year as a consignment. Mot , in all probability, would not buy it outright. Think the sellers are acting like used car salesman (saleswoman)...Be careful

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #28 – November 15, 2013, 10:28:36 am

"This weeks deal of a lifetime" :-)

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #29 – November 15, 2013, 02:30:10 pm

Just talked to MOT was told they will come to Michigan to pickup my 1999.Gam

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #30 – November 15, 2013, 07:31:21 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – November 14, 2013, 08:19:11 pm

Jerry,

A torque wrench is really of no affect one way or the other. If a bolt holding the coach together won't torque to 21 lb-ft it is really not "structural". Reality, a Rolock will either not move at all at that torque or be broken. You are not going to harm the bolt or the beam by check torque at that low force.

Brett

On edit-- thanks Pierce-- went back and deleted the bolt grade.

If memory serves me when I attended the unihome seminar in oct 1987 in FOT I watched james Triana run a rolock bolt into a set of predrilled holes with a impact type gun.

When I asked, james said 50 foot pounds.

Bob

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #31 – November 16, 2013, 12:43:08 am

Roloks are made for mass production applications and can be installed quickly in pre-drilled holes. Torquing to 50 lbs seems very excessive. Here is a torque chart published by Fastenal. Covers a lot of sizes except stainless and gives torque numbers from dry to lubricated threads. Rolok torque will be found in the grade 5 column. Good to read the first line under the chart. http://www.fastenal.com/content/feds/pdf/Torque-Tension%20Chart%20for%20A307%20Gr5%20Gr8%20Gr9.pdf

Pierce

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #32 – November 16, 2013, 11:53:12 am

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – November 16, 2013, 12:43:08 am

Roloks are made for mass production applications and can be installed quickly in pre-drilled holes. Torquing to 50 lbs seems very excessive. Here is a torque chart published by Fastenal. Covers a lot of sizes except stainless and gives torque numbers from dry to lubricated threads. Rolok torque will be found in the grade 5 column. Good to read the first line under the chart. http://www.fastenal.com/content/feds/pdf/Torque-Tension%20Chart%20for%20A307%20Gr5%20Gr8%20Gr9.pdf

Pierce

I did question james use of a fairly loud air impact gun set to that torque at the time.

And I also questioned rolocks versus huck fasteners and the single wall 1/8 tubing being used.

And told him some day they would be using doublers for extra thickness or double tubing or both and huck bolts.

He laughed. The rolocks turned out to be fine other than the mostly preventable rust issues.

The rolocks have interrupted threads and deeper threading maybe. Remember this is one look 26 years ago when james threw me one to see what it was.

They had setup a demo of the unihome sub chassis to show us what it was and how it was assembled. And videoed the demo and the actual presentation. Bet the tape is still around.

Bob

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #33 – November 16, 2013, 12:55:37 pm

Hello Folks:

After reading through this thread I decided I would go look at my 1998 U270. OH BOY, I think I have a problem. I don't think it as bad as scuba guy. Maybe you all can tell me. I have attached some pics (hopefully)

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #34 – November 16, 2013, 02:54:35 pm

Quote from: sawdust316 – November 16, 2013, 12:55:37 pm

I don't think it as bad as scuba guy.

Just a quick clarification....

ScubaGuy's thread on bulkhead issues was a coach we were CONSIDERING and not the coach we ended up purchasing. As a testament to the two previous owners - Lee Kitsinger (1st) and Mike Doran (2nd) - the bulkheads on our coach look great.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #35 – November 16, 2013, 03:10:10 pm

Bob,

The 1/8" is actually 1/4' thick total when you consider the Rolok is long enough to thread through both the near and far sides. No excuse for not using the specified torque. One of the major car manufactures saw their warranty work drop significantly when they started using torque wrenches instead of the assembly line worker's guesstimate.

Norm,

How about another photo of the area (s) with a light source so we can see the extent of the problem. I'm not a big believer the the torque wrench test where you just try to bring it up to the torque spec. I like to loosen each bolt a little and then tighten to the proper torque. Some may be frozen in place and will break off when you try to remove them. Plus years of exposure have caused hydrogen embrittlement that may cause sudden failure of the fastener. See a Fastenal article at: http://www.fastenal.com/content/feds/pdf/Article%20-%20Embrittlement.pdf Rolocks do not have any corrosion inhibiting coating so very much affected by this article. In other words, they no longer meet grade 5 specs.

I tried to check all of my Rolocks and had 7 in a row break off on one side, 6 on the other. The problem doing this is that you have to be ready to install a fix at the same time. I drove a chisel into to gap until it was wide enough to get a Sawsall blade into the gap and then used it to remove as much rust as possible. I got a large pile of rust chunks on the ground. I then drilled and using a long tap, tapped on each side of the broken bolts and then installed larger 3/8" 316 stainless bolts on each side of each broken bolt. Once the head has come off, there is no way to get the rest of the bolt out. When I get time, I will go up through the bottom and put stainless nuts and washers on the 3" long stainless bolts. I used a tiny camera plugged into my laptop to see the inside of the rectangular tubing but it was perfect so the rust was limited to the exterior on the bulkhead side.

Yours does not look severe from the photo but time to check the extent of the problem and fix it.

Pierce

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #36 – November 16, 2013, 03:23:35 pm

Hi Pierce;

Thanks for looking.

The valve hanging down is the wated drain for the air system, directly behind the rear wheel. The pictures were taken from the drivers side. Thought I put more than one on; Here are two more. From the passenger side there is no bulging.

there is one bolt broken off, all the others seem to be in place.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #37 – November 16, 2013, 03:24:48 pm

As Pierce said, the Roloks go through both walls of the 1 1/2" box beam (through both 1/8" thick walls).

BUT (ya, big but) it doesn't take a lot of rust to render 1/8" of mild steel non-structural.

It is not a big job to replace the Roloks-- I prefer through bolting with large backing plates (see my original write up). But, as Don discovered (and beautifully documented), if the rust has rendered those 1/8" walls non-structural you are into a whole other league.

Do not ASSUME the worse, but also, do not ASSUME only the best.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #38 – November 16, 2013, 03:31:37 pm

Just because the bolt head is there, do not assume that it is holding anything. In most cases with bulkhead issues, the Rolok is broken where it starts into the near wall of the box beam-- about 4 threads in from the bolt head.

Went through this very early with James Triana. He said just look at it. And I agree, if severe, that is all you need to do. But, just looking will NOT tell you that the bolt is not broken. I replaced a couple of broken Roloks on my U240 rear bulkhead and there was ZERO separation and ZERO rust. All 5 fell off with little more than finger torque and all were broken in the same place-- 4 threads in.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #39 – November 16, 2013, 03:58:47 pm

Thanks Brett;

HMMMMM, I live in central Maine and I do not have indoor storage. I had a sand and gravel pad put down and have the tires on 2x12 Hemlock. I do not plan on taking the coach out til spring, salt is used heavily up here and that is not good for the coach.

So, with the really nasty weather coming and coupled with my wife's shoulder replacement I will not have time to do anything right now. I am aware of the problem. What I am thinking is come March make a bee line to NAC and have it done there. I'm not the young guy that used to crawl under things like this and fix'em. Will have to keep and eye on it on the trip down.

Thanks again to both you and Pierce.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #40 – November 22, 2013, 12:42:21 pm

Took me the whole summer of 2011 to repair my catastrophic front bulkhead failure on our '93 U280. I was fortunate that the box beam was not compromised and ALL I needed was to install 17 thru bolts with nuts and steel fabricated washers. Would not want to repeat that process. Have not had any issues since.

Roland

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #41 – November 22, 2013, 01:19:17 pm

So, in finishing up what has been posted above, I agree with Brett as you can't see if a bolt is broken just by looking at it, even if there is no visible rust or separation. Suspect that possible over torque with an air gun may have stretched the bolt past it's design specs and hydrogen embrittlement in the area where the threads start into the first part of the rectangular tubing along with rust jacking (as an area develops rust, it expands, further loading the fastener) is responsible for the failures. All of our failures were exactly as Brett describes, about 4 threads in.

Replacing bulkhead bolts was a big factor in deciding to build our pit as I could quickly see that lying on the ground under the coach while drilling/replacing the bulkhead bolts was very difficult to begin with and age certainly does not help. Drilling all the way through both sides of the tubing and keeping it square at the same time is difficult even with the pit.

Pierce

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #42 – December 31, 2013, 06:04:56 am

Quote from: Caflashbob – November 16, 2013, 11:53:12 am

I did question james use of a fairly loud air impact gun set to that torque at the time.

And I also questioned rolocks versus huck fasteners and the single wall 1/8 tubing being used.

And told him some day they would be using doublers for extra thickness or double tubing or both and huck bolts.

He laughed. The rolocks turned out to be fine other than the mostly preventable rust issues.

The rolocks have interrupted threads and deeper threading maybe. Remember this is one look 26 years ago when james threw me one to see what it was.

They had setup a demo of the unihome sub chassis to show us what it was and how it was assembled. And videoed the demo and the actual presentation. Bet the tape is still around.

Bob

I would love to see that tape, Simply because I am the Mr Fixit here, I would like to see a frame of the Grand Villa Coach with nothing on it, and sitting on the bare chassis,

That would make a lot of things easy for me to find inside the walls,

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #43 – December 31, 2013, 10:26:27 am

Bulkhead Separation

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #44 – December 31, 2013, 12:16:42 pm

Quote from: MR B2 – December 31, 2013, 06:04:56 am

I would like to see a frame of the Grand Villa Coach with nothing on it, and sitting on the bare chassis,

That would make a lot of things easy for me to find inside the walls,

Different construction for a unihome as there is no separate chassis. One piece bolted together structure made up of pre vacuum bonded sub assemblies. Elegant piece of engineering

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #45 – January 01, 2014, 12:14:50 am

Those were the Piccys I was looking for, PatC, Every thing ripped off, So I can see the metal underneath,

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