Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Topic: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts? (Read 1950 times) previous topic - next topic

Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

November 14, 2013, 04:20:27 pm

Hi folks,

Thanks to Brad's post, I'm looking at a 1996 U295. I have read about the bulkheads, and I think I have a basic understanding of how they are put together, how they can "fail," etc. I think the bulkheads on this coach look okay (have not done any testing - just visual look), but there is one area in particular I'm not sure about. The area in question is on the rear bulkhead, passenger side (which, as I understand it is where the overflow for the freshwater tank is?). What I can see - but am not sure if it's a concern or not - is that the fiberglass panel (that covers much of the bottom of the coach) is bulged down in that area. In other words, if the coach were on a lift, and the bulkhead were at eye level, and you were standing behind it looking forward, you would see a "dip" in the fiberglass cover panel, with a corresponding gap that you could poke a screwdriver into.

I'm going to see if I can attach photos now (first time). Thank you for looking.

1) Forward bulkhead looking across - this looks okay to me (I think?)

2) Looking across rear bulkhead, from passenger side to driver's side.

3) Annotated view of rear bulkhead with question

4) Same spot but looking up from underneath.

5) One more view of same spot.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #1 – November 14, 2013, 04:32:48 pm

That area is bad. Use a torque wrench and you will likely get a handful of bolt heads that are broken 4-5 threads in.

You can also use an ice pick or awl and probe the box beam just above the sagging FG and just forward of the steel angle that the Rolock bolts thread into. With 1/8" thick walls, there isn't much meat to sacrifice to the demons of rust.

Brett

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #2 – November 14, 2013, 04:48:25 pm

Not the end of the world by any means but you need to find the extent of the damage. Shoot Don a PM for his advice as this is about the same model he has. Barry also had a water tank related problem so is another good source of information plus his damage may be the most related to the one you are looking at.

Use the search for previous posts by both members, get up to speed on the possibilities and then get in touch with them.

Pierce

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #3 – November 14, 2013, 04:55:49 pm

The area hasn't separated as yet, but one nasty speed bump taken a little fast could pop a few of those bolt heads right off! The aluminum trim strip that wraps around the bottom edge of the fiberglass is completely gone... Which means it was corroded and either disintegrated or was peeled off by the previous owner. What you would need to do to determine the extent of repair necessary for this coach is to determine the extent of the rust. There is some plywood sandwiched between the layers of fiberglass in front of the bulkhead joints and these can get soaked if there is a fresh water leak in utility compartment. There is no really practical way to determine just how bad the rust is without doing some testing which will be somewhat destructive and therefore undoable by anybody other than the owner. However, you can use the worst case scenario to determine how much less than the asking price you want to offer for the coach... Or you could just run the other way

Don

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #4 – November 14, 2013, 05:00:00 pm

Hi Alex,

That's not good news but's it's not the end of the line yet. You really need to explain to the owner the concern you have, show him the pictures, and see if he is willing to let you check the bolts with a torque wrench. Like Brett said, you will almost definitely break some bolts, you need to prepare the owner for this reality.

To me it's in his best interest to let you do a little testing... he may or may not see it that way.

If he is willing to let you check them, he maybe willing to consider the results of your testing in the negotiations.

This is in no way near as bad of shape as I have seen, and based on my conversations with Extreme definitely fixable. You could give them a call and email them photos to get an idea of time/cost involved.

I believe you should torque the roloks to 250 INCH Pounds or approx. 21 FOOT Pounds, someone please correct me if that's wrong.

Good luck.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #5 – November 14, 2013, 05:06:07 pm

Great input, thanks. I had previously read some of the other threads (which is how I was able to feel reasonably educated going in, so thanks!).

Don, you hit on the crux of it: It's something that as a person who doesn't yet own the coach, I can only do so much "testing" on. "Excuse me, do you mind if I start wrenching Rolok heads off of the bottom of the coach? No? Thanks!"

So, that's why I figured I'd at least ask for some interpretation here. Much appreciated.

Let me ask this, for some perspective: If I'm looking at 1995-2000 U295/U270's, is it a matter of if I just look at a certain number, I will find one in "good shape," bulkhead-wise? Or are they "all" compromised to some extent. I know these can all be fixed, but I guess what I'm thinking is: At this point in time i have no need, nor desire, to take on a "special" problem coach. On the other hand, they're all going to have something, and so if this is more "normal" for the vintage, and it's just something I'd be tackling on this one or the next one, well okay then. Or is it "worse than normal"?

PS: ScubaGuy, just saw your post - we must have been writing at the same time. Thanks for the info.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #6 – November 14, 2013, 05:16:12 pm

I would not buy this coach without getting the price reduced significantly. The pictures indicate that there are some very real problems. Unless the seller will lower the price by at least the estimated cost of getting it repaired, I would definitely walk away.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #7 – November 14, 2013, 05:30:31 pm

Ugh. Sorry you have found such an issue with the coach, but better to find it now than after purchase.

Please keep me posted on what you find... I.E. if it is a $5k problem that the owner won't come off the price so you pass...or whatever the cost, if he will or will not let the price reflect the repair and you decide it is more of a "project" than you want to take on.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #8 – November 14, 2013, 05:35:46 pm

While the woman at the house did tell me that the owner's asking price was "what FOT said they would pay for it", and thus he labeled it as his "firm price", I'm sure FOT would have recognized that bulkhead issue and lowered their estimate to reflect it. Also, If he took it from here to FOT to sell it to them, that would involve a bit of transportation/fuel expense...an additional $1k maybe. Just another negotiating item.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #9 – November 14, 2013, 05:39:01 pm

In my opinion, neither FOT or MOT would commit to a price without forst seeing the coach. So the owner has to be prepared to either fix the bulkhead or accept a lower price. The front and rear bulkhead repair could be as much as $1,500 if the repair involves only drilling new holes for new bolts and minor rust repair using something like Ospho and undercoating.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #10 – November 14, 2013, 05:41:44 pm

Words of great wisdom......be very careful.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #11 – November 14, 2013, 06:01:28 pm

Quote from: Alex P. – November 14, 2013, 05:06:07 pm

Let me ask this, for some perspective: If I'm looking at 1995-2000 U295/U270's, is it a matter of if I just look at a certain number, I will find one in "good shape," bulkhead-wise? Or are they "all" compromised to some extent. I know these can all be fixed, but I guess what I'm thinking is: At this point in time i have no need, nor desire, to take on a "special" problem coach. On the other hand, they're all going to have something, and so if this is more "normal" for the vintage, and it's just something I'd be tackling on this one or the next one, well okay then. Or is it "worse than normal"?

Alex, it's a tough position to be in, believe me I understand. I've seen terrible: What do you think about these bulkheads? and I've seen mine, which have been "repaired" even though they show no rust other than surface rust. My previous owner was a pretty through guy.

So, any coach you find could be either way.

I walked away from the coach in the link I posted. I would have had a long talk with FOT or Extreme before I would have walked away from the coach you're looking at. TO ME their is a big difference between what I ran away from, and what you are looking at. The coach I ran away from had severe damage to both the front and rear bulkheads. You seem to be looking at pretty good condition in the front and only damage to about half the rear, most likely from overfilling the water tank, and not from operating in a northern climate.

That said, I agree totally agree, I would not pay asking price.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #12 – November 14, 2013, 06:25:53 pm

Agree with David that you need to diagnose correctly and know what you are getting into. May not e easy where coach is sitting. You and owner could possibly get it to Nacogdoches for inspection?

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #13 – November 14, 2013, 06:52:33 pm

Just wondering is $1500 to real price for fixing the bulkheads that any of you have paid or is it an estimate?
Thank you in advance.

Greg Kemper

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #14 – November 14, 2013, 07:00:45 pm

I had to be away from the computer for a while (horrors!) and just got back. Appreciate the further input.

You never know until you know, but my feeling is that this owner is "proud" of his coach, and that he is firm on his price (at least for now). And it is a nice coach, with many nice features. Too, I'm not big on "convincing" someone. I mean, I don't mind negotiating in good faith, and I'm happy to pay a fair price; but if a seller is not really open to discussing it, okay, I'll move on without a big fuss. I don't know where this seller is yet, but my gut says it would be awhile before he'd change the "firm" thing - say maybe until it hadn't sold in some months. In that case, I probably wouldn't be the one here at the time.

I was "only" a 9 hour drive away (was in the Bay Area), so I didn't mind driving down basically sight unseen. I figured at the very least I would get to see/drive a Foretravel that is right in the niche I'm looking for, and at the best it would be "the one." Realistically, I'll probably have to drive quite a bit further to see other one(s). Which is fine, but I just mean that the "short" distance made this an easy choice to come see right now (and hey, now I'm closer to Texas

). Texas is a lot less convenient to get to, but on the other hand once I'm there it's easy to get things checked out and done vs. being in the wilds of Arizona. I can definitely see how it would be convenient to purchase at MOT, for example (and I have kept in touch with them).

I'm also still not sure how I feel about the paint scheme on the coach. It's clearly a nice/expensive upgrade, but just not sure if it is "me." I actually thought it was going to be bright red from the one small photo; turns out it's maroon/gold. One problem: One usage of the pantographic doors on the middle bays and I'm hooked. How will I ever "go back to" hinged ones?

I have taken some photos, thinking that if I did not end up buying it perhaps I could post them here for others who might be interested (I think perhaps I would want to check with seller on that (?).... not sure the usual etiquette.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #15 – November 14, 2013, 07:03:07 pm

A year and half ago I paid Extreme around $1400 to repair the front and rear bulkheads as described. New SS bolts and Ospho w/o undercoating or sealer. I presume that the prices may vary a bit depending on condition.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #16 – November 14, 2013, 07:03:48 pm

Doubt they had a firm offer from mot or FOT, they might have told the owner that is what they would get him net most likely, but they hadn't seen coach. Mot and FOT will take in a trade and consignments, but seldom buy used coaches outright. Quick call to mot would clear that up

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #17 – November 14, 2013, 07:05:22 pm

Like Don said, there is no one who can give an accurate estimate on cost of repair (actually, cost of removing bottom of the coach and replacing compromised box beaming) without opening it up. While most assuredly, there are broken bolts, do NOT, repeat NOT let anyone tell you all you need is to replace the bolts. Critical point-- the box beams only have 1/8" mild steel walls. Enough rust to separate the FG floor to the basement will have rendered them quite suspect. Most "here is what repairing the bulkheads costs ASSUMES (ya, BIG ASSUMES) that the box beam is not compromised and that a good cleaning of the joint and use of new bolts (better) or huck bolts (not as good IMO) will get you back to 100%

And to answer your other question-- yes, I have inspected other Foretravels of the same vintage with zero separation and perhaps one or two broken Rolock bolts that can be fixed for a couple of bucks. Normal cause of bulkhead issues is water leaks that an owner doesn't tend to. I have seen beautiful coaches with failed rear bulkhead because owner was too lazy to replace a $.15 washer where shore water comes into coach. Result, water say in the bulkhead for years.

Can't tell you to stop or proceed. I will tell you to read through all Don's (acousticart) pictures of the extensive repair he did before making any decision.

Brett

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #18 – November 14, 2013, 07:07:37 pm

Thank you Peter, after seeing what Don went through that sounds like a bargain!

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #19 – November 14, 2013, 07:08:32 pm

Edited to add: Just read the last two posts (written while I was typing). I hear you on no-one can know for sure (yet). But, your input has given me some great baseline info. I understand about the box beam underneath - 1/8" doesn't leave a whole lot to rust away before it would need more than "just" new bolts. Anyway, can't thank you all enough for your thoughts - much appreciated.

***************

I realize no one can probably tell for sure from just a photo - and not looking for any "guarantees" - but....what is anyone's "guess" on whether it would be fine to drive to FOT from AZ and then have it repaired? If I had to guess, I'd say that quite a number of Foretravels on the road look similar, so it's probably fine, but.... for those with experience... are you thinking "Drive it like that? Are you kidding?"

For myself I would want it repaired, no question. So it's more a question of ballpark price (which I have an idea on now) and whether there is any realistic risk in driving it from here to Texas.

I'm not even sure it's "the one" yet, so don't want anyone to go to too much effort in answering, but just your quick thoughts (and perhaps they will help someone else if I don't end up with this one).

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #20 – November 14, 2013, 08:10:13 pm

I wouldn't recommend putting a torque wrench on the bulkhead bolts unless you are prepared to make the necessary repairs. If you dont plan on making these repairs I would reccomend taking it to the shop you are comfortable with performong the task to make the inspection.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #21 – November 14, 2013, 08:19:11 pm

Jerry,

A torque wrench is really of no affect one way or the other. If a bolt holding the coach together won't torque to 21 lb-ft it is really not "structural". Reality, a Rolock will either not move at all at that torque or be broken. You are not going to harm the bolt or the beam by check torque at that low force.

Brett

On edit-- thanks Pierce-- went back and deleted the bolt grade.

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #22 – November 14, 2013, 08:48:38 pm

No big deal but don't think Roloks meet grade 8 specs so max torque specs for grade 5 probably should be used. http://www.efc-intl.com/wp-content/uploads/Rolok2.pdf

Pierce

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #23 – November 14, 2013, 09:33:56 pm

I agree that any fastener that breaks the head off at 21 lb-ft is not structural at all, even if it looks intact beforehand. I purchased Rolok screws from Foretravel and ultimately didn't use, except to replace my front bulkhead bolts which were still holding and all came out intact with one exception.
Quote from Semblex PDF...
"Stronger thread
Rolok® fasteners roll-form their own mating threads. The result is a stronger, more uniform thread. The 360 degree thread-forming lobes preserve the grain structure of the mating threads, rather than cutting them and in turn, weakening them. Of course, stronger mating threads also enhance overall fastener performance. All Rolok fasteners are engineered at a minimum straight tensile strength of 135,000 PSI, which exceed grade 5 requirements."

They are good fasteners and as long as they are not allowed to rust, they will continue to do the job. I have 17 new ones in my front bulkhead and they are all torqued to 250 inch pounds. I will not let them get rusty! For the rear, I went with ARP 170 PSI Stainless steel 4.25" long by 3/8" through bolts. The original holes were compromised and so drilled out to accommodate the 3/8" bolts which are threaded into nuts welded to 3/16" backing plates welded to 1/8" thick walled box tubing which is in turn welded to the original bulkhead joint transverse tubing. Was all that necessary? Probably not, but since was I already all in on the project... By the way, the threads in the box beam had not failed, it was the bolt itself. Only one of the bolts came out intact and that was because it was already stripped, probably on installation.

For most bulkhead repairs, and quite possibly the coach you posted pictures of, I would use Brett's guide in the sticky's as a starting point and that is likely to be the kind of repairs that fall into the $1500 range. In contrast, if you look at Barry B's tread about the repair of his basement framing that FOT did under warranty, they billed 40 hours or so... Making sure the fresh water tank is completely full

Or at my repairs which, if they counted the hours, would get me committed...

Don

Quote from: wolfe10 – November 14, 2013, 08:19:11 pm

Jerry,

A torque wrench is really of no affect one way or the other. If a bolt holding the coach together won't torque to 21 lb-ft it is really not "structural". Reality, a Rolock will either not move at all at that torque or be broken. You are not going to harm the bolt (BTW, it is a grade 8 bolt) or the beam by check torque at that low force.

Brett

Re: Bulkhead photos: Could I get your thoughts?

Reply #24 – November 14, 2013, 10:14:32 pm

Drive it to Texas as is

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