Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

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Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

November 25, 2013, 08:01:21 pm

Hello..

i am looking to purchase a Grand Villa before next summer and hope to receive some advice before and after the purchase...
I have been doing some re-search in regards to pricing and i do plan on staying anywhere between an 87 and a 91.
I would like to find one with the air ride and jake brake as i want to do quiet a bit of traveling in the future..

now here some questions i have:
- is there anything in particular i need to watch out for?
- any certain engine i should stay away from
- what is the towing capacity as i plan to tow a vehicle behind it ?
- a lot of grand villas are advertised around 100.000mls.. what is the average milage i should stay with and at what milage do you expect major engine / transmission overhaul?

and a kind of stupid question : i would like to travel around 70 to 75 mph as average speed..do you guys see any issue in doing so ? what would my mpg be ?

thanks for all the help in advance

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #1 – November 25, 2013, 10:20:28 pm

First of all welcome to the site! I too am pretty new here and have a new to us 1989 GV ORED '36 and absolutely love it. Before you go a lot further check out Barry's website an you wil find more information than you can digest in one sitting.

Foretravel Motorhome technical help and information links

Good luck and keep reading up on Foreforums. So much great info and great people to match.
Jeff

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #2 – November 25, 2013, 10:58:13 pm

Your mileage will probably be terrible at that speed. A motor coach has the aerodynamics of a bookcase and about the same cross section. Driving at 60 mph produces the best fuel efficiency for my coach, unless there's a strong head wind. I get about 10 mpg at 60 mph without a toad. I get about the same mileage at 55 or even 50 mph, probably because the transmission unlocks the torque converter on every little hill that it wouldn't need to unlock for at 60 mph. Taking transmission wear into account I normally drive at 60 mph unless there's a strong head wind. People I talk to who drive 70 mph or faster get about 4-6 mpg at best, but they've all got toads and flat nosed coaches and they all weigh a lot more than my coach. At any speed above 60 mph you can expect a huge increase in aerodynamic resistance and fuel consumption. Losing weight helps a lot also, especially when climbing steep grades. If you can travel without a toad you'll do a lot better, especially in the mountains. I spoke to one couple who disconnects their toad when they're in the mountains and drives the toad separately. Driving with very little water in the tank loses a lot of weight too. Don't load up your coach with cargo that you don't need and you'll save a lot of weight. Also check your tire air pressure each day while the tires are still cold before you begin driving and make sure they're up to at least the pressure Foretravel suggests for your coach, but not more than the maximum printed on the tire's sidewall. Your driving technique can save a lot of fuel too. Look ahead and anticipate red lights so you won't have to brake for them. Take off gently from intersections when you do have to make a full stop. Stop in rest areas that are at the top of the hill or on a downhill grade. Drive on cruise control if possible. With a little effort you'll get really good mileage and everyone will be surprised when you tell them. People are always shocked at my mileage. They're expecting about half as much as I get. I drove from Tennessee to Maine on one tank of fuel last Summer through the Appalachian Mountains and got 10 mpg.

As for which coach to choose, get the U300 or U280 so you'll have the airbag suspension. I suggest the rear radiator model so you won't have to deal with hydraulic fan motors and pump and the expensive failures associated with them. If you buy a rear radiator model you MUST replace the fiberglass radiator fan with a new nylon fan immediately. The fiberglass fan always always always explodes. There are no variations here except the amount of damage done in the inevitable fan explosion. It almost always takes out your radiator and leaves you stranded somewhere. After you replace the fiberglass fan with a new nylon fan you'll have the most reliable cooling system. Change your fan belts when you change your fan and carry the old belts as spares.

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #3 – November 25, 2013, 11:12:26 pm

...also the U300 has the 2 cycle Detroit Diesel engine which lasts an average of about 400,000 miles with proper care, and it's rebuildable for a few thousand dollars if you ever manage to wear it out, which is pretty unlikely. I'm told the Allison transmission is probably good for about the same amount of mileage with proper care. My source of information is Stewart & Stevenson, the Detroit Diesel / Allison service center. The U280 normally has a small Caterpillar 3208T engine which is considered to be non rebuildable by many diesel mechanics due to the fact that it doesn't have sleeved cylinders like big rig diesel engines. I don't know how long those engines last, probably a lifetime with proper care (?) The prices are essentially the same so unless you plan on doing a lot of cold weather camping you should consider the U300. In cold weather the 4 cycle engines will start a lot easier. In my case I bought my coach specifically because I wanted a 2 cycle Detroit Diesel ...so don't ask me about it cuz I'll bore you to death with details! haha

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #4 – November 25, 2013, 11:23:01 pm

...and if you're gonna stay in national parks and national forests you should buy the 36' model because there's a 35' limit on the campsites in almost all the NPS and NFS parks I've visited around the country. I actually have to lie and say I'm a foot shorter than I am so they'll let me in... Okay, shutting up now so everyone can disagree with me on all this stuff

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #5 – November 25, 2013, 11:28:30 pm

Quote from: RRadio – November 25, 2013, 11:23:01 pm

...and if you're gonna stay in national parks and national forests you should buy the 36' model because there's a 35' limit on the campsites in almost all the NPS and NFS parks I've visited around the country. I actually have to lie and say I'm a foot shorter than I am so they'll let me in... Okay, shutting up now so everyone can disagree with me on all this stuff

You should measure your coach. Ours is 35'7". Just 7" longer than the shop is deep.

Craig

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #6 – November 26, 2013, 12:13:03 am

Actually the U280 was produced more years with the C8.3 than with the 3208.

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #7 – November 26, 2013, 01:43:36 am

As a former sales manager for a Foretravel factory store in the late 80's and a way faster driver than most here as I was in my 30's I feel competent to respond here.

We used the used coaches personally to drive all over the western us.

the best mileage coach I sold that would run at speed was the ored 300 cat 36' grand villa.

65-70 mph with the 10r22.5 std tires they would get nearly 10mpg. Never towed as it could be driven like a car almost.

Why? 20,000 pound fairly low profile coach.

Drove one from Colorado to Southern California wide open straight through way over the speeds you mentioned and it got 8 mpg. Deleted the speed I was really going as most would say no way.

Not recommended and we were in a hurry to get out of the -20 weather and half sick with frozen tanks so I drove us home.

Love someone to tell me how far its from telluride, co to Costa Mesa, ca. I drove nearly an entire 150 gallon tank of fuel that day.

Fantastic road machine. Watch out for the built in speed bumps on the west bound interstate 40 in New Mexico.

My 30,000 pound U320 gets ten mpg at 60 on totally flat ground and no wind and 6-7 at 70-75.

The 300 loved the hills. Slowly accelerate up all the 6 percent interstate grades until you finally lifted your foot.

A favorite customer brought me a picture of his 300 cat with a ranger four cylinder pickup tow car and he wrote on the back that the ored would climb the hills faster with the truck behind it than the truck would do by itself

Bob

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #8 – November 26, 2013, 06:31:25 am

I used to drive that fast too. I then slowed down to 62-65. Much easier driving with the cruise control on and let the world pass by. I have driven from west Va to western Iowa near SD in one day. No speed limit then just suggestions on how fast those I needed to pass were going. The trucks said look at the Winnebago go. Said I was not a winny. They can be driven fast and 70 is no problem but the journey is half the fun of getting there.

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #9 – November 26, 2013, 06:32:57 am

Oh I get in the low 8s at 63 and the high 6s to 7 at 70. Driving 6000 miles plus in a trip that will add up.

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #10 – November 26, 2013, 06:37:20 am

Thank you guys.. This I believe is some good advice so far..
I am aware of high fuel costs due to driving a little faster,Mobutu the main thing is,that I do not want to be seen as a road block out there for every trucker.. Trying to stay with the flow.. Most the time, we would be traveling off the interstate if possible and at the beginning only be going on short trips.. I still have time till retirement, but like to get into a coach early, so I can make it reliable as well as personalize it.
I was initially looking at airstream motor homes, as I had several of the Airstream travel trailers.. But with only 2000lbs towing capacity , very slow speed, front engine gas... I rather go with a foretravel instead. I have worked in the rv industry for quite some time, after working in the auto industry and now changed to marine.. So I am capable to do a lot of repairs and maintenance myself.

Now.. I see most here talking about the ored .. Which is the Oshkosh chassis. How about the unibody.. Isn't it a lighter coach and therefore should be better in fuel? Or am I mistaken somewhere ?

Thanks again

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #11 – November 26, 2013, 08:04:36 am

Check Barry Beam's site for the specs on the various models. Foretravel Specifications, Floor Plans, Photos & Brochures by Year We went with the U300 over the U280 because of towing capacity. So far the only long trip was in the summer and the generator was running to power the roof a/c units. We got just under 8 mpg.

Airstream did make some DP models, both in the Classic body and the newer versions. Classic DP's are scarce, though. The Land Yachts that I saw had rear radiators, and everything I read (other than Scott's comments above) told me that a side radiator was much better.

Buying your coach some time prior to when you need it is a good idea. That will let you fix/upgrade as needed at your convenience, rather than on the road. Should you want or need to take it to Nac for some work you can plan that.

Enjoy the research and then the hunt. Ask your questions here and you will get plenty of answers.

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #12 – November 26, 2013, 08:55:33 am

Dsub,

I think you will find general agreement that the best fuel mileage is going to be the Grand Villa style with the 6BT Cummins. Lots of advantages to that combo, very efficient, hundreds of thousands of these engines in service with excellent service and reliability. No retarder and towing is more of an effort than with a larger engine. Easier to drive due to low weight and narrower body on some. Stylish, art deco classic look. Smoking good deals to be found occasionally.

Next up, the Unihome with the C8.3 Cummins mechanical engine. This is a essentially a larger version of the 6B. Very reliable, good fuel efficiency, possible to get 10+mpg at reasonable speeds, decent towing capacity. Easy to work on with side radiator for great engine access, downside is power hungry and potentially problematic hydraulic fan system. Retarder is great benefit as is the 6 speed Allison its coupled to. I average 10 mpg towing a Geo tracker, lots of mountain driving, but usually prefer to drive in the 62mph range.

No experience with Cats, can't comment.

Next up 350 hp C8.3 electronic, on up to the higher hp Cummins redtops. Power to spare, tow anything, climb hills with impunity once you hit the 450 hp level. All the bells and whistles plus the ability to run VMS to monitor all engine and tranny parameters. Retarders on these, and when you go to the heavier transmission in the 400 hp up coaches, a more powerful retarder and robust tranny. Most owners of these report realistic mileages in the 7.5-8 mpg range for the 400 up, depending on weight of foot. The 350 8.3 can usually do better mpg wise. All the benefit of the higher hp can be wiped out by the weight of the coach, compare hp/weight for a true picture.

Personally, if I was wanting the best deal on the most efficient coach and was willing to deal with the tradeoffs, it'd have the 6B.

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #13 – November 26, 2013, 09:18:51 am

On our trip to NY this past summer I got about 11.5 on my ORED with the 3208T CAT...I wasn't towing anything and cruise was at 60-65 most of the time. It was just the DW and I and wasn't loaded to the gills either. After years of towing my TT at 8 MPG I couldn't have been happier.

As far as the 3208T goes I meet with the service Manager at MI CAT before I bought I with a lot of questions....he did say that it wasn't worth the $$$ to rebuild it but the engine life was 500-750k miles before major engine issues have been found. The 3208 is still a very desirable engine in the marine community. Very reliable engine with none of the big electronic problems of newer deisel engines.

With all my love of my GV I would like a Unihome....the extra storage from the basement bays are a big draw for me. But my price was more than right and I'm good condition from loving PO of 21 years....when you find the right one you'll know if you've done your research as it appears you are now. Good luck

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #14 – November 26, 2013, 10:08:44 am

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – November 26, 2013, 08:55:33 am

No experience with Cats, can't comment.

I know that Brett was getting 11 to 11.5 mpg with the Cat 3116 (250 hp) in his U240. But the Airtabs might have helped that some too.

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #15 – November 26, 2013, 02:16:00 pm

I get around 9 in my 240 with no toad and driving just under 70 most of the time.

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #16 – November 26, 2013, 06:32:29 pm

Thank you guys for all the input.

Not sure if I missed it somewhere, but what is the towing capacity and does it vary a lot with the different engine sizes?
How are the suspensions? Are there any concerns or known problems for certain type of suspensions, ie, spring vs air ?

How are the GV' s in regard to leaks? What is the roofmaterial, rubber or fiberglass ?

As for the Airstream diesel pushers, the prices are still way up there . Plus I am just more drawn towards the foretravel, when it comes to a motor home.. Airstream was and is great in trailers, but I believe there is a reason, why they did not produce too many motor homes.
And one of the biggest decisions to go with a Grand Villa is not only the reliability and high quality, but also the boss wants one :-)

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #17 – November 26, 2013, 08:09:07 pm

Dsub,
I think most of us are little gun shy to made blanket statements covering all models for any range of years - we always end up finding out later about a unit that breaks the rule.
But with the above caveat I will attempt it. I'm referring to the model years 87-91:
Towing: U300 is 6000 lbs. (GCWR minus GVWR), All other models are 1500 lbs. - this is not dependent on the engine but the whole chassis/powertrain package.
Suspensions: none are really "bad", Best is the Foretravel Unihome/Unicoach 8 air bag, then the Oshkosh (I think two types: air spring and torsilastic), then gas chassis on leaf springs.
Leaks: Construction quality and technique among all the models is nearly identical all the way up to when they started adding slides. Small changes over the years like thicker subfloor in later years. For a unit that old, it's individual care will be more evident and the most important. Construction of a GV is really no different than for a bus style up until slides showed up - around 2000. All roofs are constructed of one piece fiberglass. Leaks will occur if a fiberglass crack is allowed to propagate all the way through the fiberglass - usually takes years. Trim molding around front and rear caps, roof cap can also be a source of a leak but inspection and preventative maintenance are key but owners typically don't have to spend much time on this. Using my coach as an example: I re-bedded the front and rear cap molding once in 2005 (had a leak show up after washing it), and re-bedded just the screws for the roof cap in 2009 (only because they looked like they need it). I've owned the coach since it was 10 years old.

In general: Higher end models have best Horsepower/carrying capacity/towing and, of course, the most cost. Some of the exceptions have already been mentioned above (the 20,000lb, 300hp GV).
MPG: Overall total weight is the main driver. Secondly is the weight to HP ratio. Third is the age of engine - new electronic controls do better. BTW, the 1991 (and I believe earlier too) U300 has an all electronic engine (6V92) with an electronic controlled transmission with a retarder too but MPG in the 8's (for most owners). Shorter coaches (36') will have the same GVWR but will of course be lighter - but you loose a lot of storage compared to a 40 footer.
The above is my own opinion - it's worth what you paid for it. There's nothing like going out and looking at some coaches and discovering what right for you.

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #18 – November 26, 2013, 08:25:58 pm

Thanks for all the info...

Even though I will not purchase anything until early summer, I have been looking for a while online and I have found this one not too far away

1989 Foretravel Grand Villa diésel pusher

Seems like a decent deal overall for a 300. This would be the 40ft coach correct?

Thanks again for all the info

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #19 – November 26, 2013, 08:33:15 pm

Could someone tell me, as to where I might find the correct dimensions as in height and width ? I will have to see, how wide I need to make my new gate.. I have limited space available to park a coach next to my house though... Thanks

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #20 – November 26, 2013, 08:36:49 pm

Older units are 96" later units are 102" the legal limit, Height seems to be up to 12' 6", do not forget mirrors and awnings adding to the fudge numbers.
Buying out of a catalog can get you off track as to these size numbers. The newest are about 13' 4" I think. before you built your barn, best have a clear pix of actual size.
Why I built a 40' X 60' with 14 X 14 doors. makes it a little easier, not idiot proof.
Dave M

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #21 – November 26, 2013, 08:51:05 pm

I had planed on pouring a small driveway between my carport and the neighbors fence.. I have maximum 118" clearance... This will make it really tight, unless I park it somewhere else.. Got to do some research on the width and hope the older grand villas are realy only 96 " .

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #22 – November 26, 2013, 09:01:30 pm

U225 and U240 are 96". I believe ORED's as well.

BTW. the U225 and U240 have a Torsilastic suspension, not air or leaf spring.

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #23 – November 26, 2013, 09:46:57 pm

U280/U300 are 96" wide if a 1991 or earlier.
Don't for get you need to swing the entry door open - requires 26" to swing fully open. Top of opened door is about 8'3" from ground (for clearance with carport roof) on my U300.
If I remember correctly I measured the width of my coach (bay door to bay door) to be exactly 96". I just measured from outside edge to outside edge of mirrors to be 115".
Also cargo bay doors swing up requiring 31" of extra clearance. This can be critical. If your batteries go dead and you can't open the bay door to get to them you could be in a real pickle. Battery(house and chassis) on most U300s of that vintage will be on drivers side, first bay in front of rear wheel. I moved mine to the passenger side, right behind rear wheels - you could too.
A U225/240 will be a little easier in this regard since the bay doors are shorter and are hinged on the bottom.

Re: Advice for future Foretravel Owner needed

Reply #24 – November 26, 2013, 10:03:10 pm

Quote from: Dieselsubmariner – November 26, 2013, 08:25:58 pm

Thanks for all the info...

Even though I will not purchase anything until early summer, I have been looking for a while online and I have found this one not too far away

1989 Foretravel Grand Villa diésel pusher

Seems like a decent deal overall for a 300. This would be the 40ft coach correct?

Thanks again for all the info

Yes, that appears to be a 40 footer. Very similar to my 91. I don't see the spec for a 1989 U300 on Barry's website but I think the 1988 will be very close:
1988 Foretravel U300 Specifications
I can see a little bit of the ceiling liner hanging - there are post on fixes to this - not difficult. It might be a good coach but only an inspection will tell.
There's some strange coloring on the generator. It should look all green.

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