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Topic: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116 (Read 2028 times) previous topic - next topic

Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

I saw only Horse Power(tv show) the installation of Water Methanol Injection kit on a Dodge Cummins Truck.  It installs real easy, seams simple, and is suppose to do great things for a diesel engine.  what do all of you think about this own my 95 U240 3116 Foretravel?  Will it help with engine temps while climing hills/mountains?  Will it help on MPG?  How will it help/hurt engine?

Pat
Pat/Blue Angel
1995 U240 36ft
MC# 16511
Build# 4653

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #1 –
You really have to know the electronics (if any) that controls your engine.  Is the engine injection controlled electronically or not?  If so, any changes to the exhaust will be compensated for by the computer and the net result is no gain.  It sounds like a question that needs to be directed to the kit manufacturer/designer.  If your engine is strictly mechanical (like our 91GV) send me a PM and we can converse on this general subject.  Have a great day  ----  Fritz
Fritz & Kathy Johnson
1991 36'

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #2 –
The 3116 is a mechanical engine.

I am not familiar with the methanol injection, so won't comment.

As far as performance on the 3116, when was the last time the valves were adjusted and injector timing checked?
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #3 –
Quote from: pthurman48 –
I saw only Horse Power(tv show) the installation of Water Methanol Injection kit on a Dodge Cummins Truck.  It installs real easy, seams simple, and is suppose to do great things for a diesel engine.  what do all of you think about this own my 95 U240 3116 Foretravel?  Will it help with engine temps while climing hills/mountains?  Will it help on MPG?  How will it help/hurt engine?

Pat

Pat,

From what I have read, it would seem to be a plus without any negatives. It drops the EGT by about 200 degrees so would have to take some load off of the cooling system. A 50-50 mix would add power as water expands up to 1700 times as it turns to steam. This conversion takes a lot of heat to do. You can see this when firemen use a fog pattern at a house fire. The water is turned to steam and then travels far beyond the immediate location putting out fire in other areas. This expansion would be on the downstroke so would not cause any combustion chamber pressure spike.

Check the video with a lot of questions answered at: Does Water-Methanol Injection increase timing in Diesel motors? - YouTube

Sure would like to know if there are any drawbacks. I do know it is used at all tractor pull competitions as well as gasoline engines starting back in WWII.

Don't think it would help with MPG plus ethanol is expensive. Would not use much on grades but could get costly if in constant use. Also, cylinder wall lubrication could be a negative if in constant use but that's just a guess.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #4 –
A thing to consider from a downside standpoint is that this kind of thing is only for those that really enjoy tinkering and experimenting with things.  This is not a "turn key" kind of add on.  If you are traveling alot and spend time on the road, you can gain from it.  They usually dont work too well for short trips.  They also require very frequent addition of water and, in this case, ethanol and/or what ever other additives.  I dont know how much maintenance they require, but probably a dis-assemble and clean on some frequency.  I enjoy this kind of thing and they take some of the "just driving" numbness out of the trip.  I have played with Hydrogen generators and have gotten some good results, but only because I enjoy doing this sort of thing and am not really looking for a big plus add on.  Have a great day  ----  Fritz
Fritz & Kathy Johnson
1991 36'

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #5 –
Thanks for the replies,  First I think the 3116 is a mechanical engine.  The fuel for the water/Methanol injection system is a 50/50 mix of the water and meth.  I have gotten my 3116 hot in the montains before and had to stop when the high temp motor and tranny alert came on.  It was not in real hot weather either.  I had been running 60 if possible.  Some hills would take full throttle for several minutes slowing to 45-50.  It would cool off down hill running.  I don't drive any faster than 60,  but I don't like the fact that when going up hill the temp starts going up.  I have changed the coolant filter also.

Pat,
Pat/Blue Angel
1995 U240 36ft
MC# 16511
Build# 4653

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #6 –
Pat,

Is your radiator spotlessly clean when you look through it? An $35 IR gun from HF is a good tool for finding plugged core areas. I have turned on our dash heater on some grades to keep temp from going much past 200. Kent put a couple of aluminum radiators up front and used the heater lines to bring the coolant up front. Lots of custom sizes on ebay and not expensive either.

Drop by a radiator shop for a "products of combustion" test. Will let you know if a head gasket might be leaking. As combustion pressures go up on grades, a leaking head gasket can cause overheating.

Other CAT guys like Brett may be able to give you some advice based on their experience.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #7 –
I seem to be confused here, with an RV with a puny engine, why push it so hard, I thought the purpose of an RV was to enjoy a more liesurely enjoyable drive.  If your into making it perform like a bigger engine, maybe a more robust engine would be in order ?
Why kill the little feller (engine) ?

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #8 –
How many HP engine is in your rig?  Our 91GV is a 36 ft with the Cat 3208T which is 300 HP.  If I start slowing too far below 60 up a hill, I just shift down and keep RPMs as close to peak torque as I can.  It gets up around 210F on long hauls in the heat, but has never been an overheat problem.  The xmission warms up to about the same, but no where near an overheat condition.  Are you towing anything?  Have a great day  ----  Fritz
Fritz & Kathy Johnson
1991 36'

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #9 –
Fritz,
I have been at this game awhile, have suffered setups not to my liking, now after a few different power setups, I have settled on a not large but enough power to get it done.  I have the ISM 500 in a 36' light weight setup, I am a bit of a hot rod. Yes, one of my joys is passing cars and empty trucks on mountains while towing my F150 pickup with a 900 lb ATV in the bed.
Cheers

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #10 –
Your engine is only a 6.6 liter engine so it turns higher RPM than a 8.3 Cummins or 9 liter Detroit. Would make sure to gear down and keep RPM up on grades gearing down further as necessary to keep temp down and RPM up. Higher RPM moves more coolant, sees lower EGT and combustion chamber pressure. Hot summer days and long grades sometimes see us down in second gear to keep temps where I like them when cooler weather would allow more speed and another gear higher.

Non-lockup transmissions will always run much warmer on hills and if you have a heat exchanger between the engine and trans, it can raise engine temp also.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #11 –
I put over 100,000 miles on a VW Passat TDI diesel running a GreaseCar Kit running filtered cooking oil with no problems.  Had over 250,000 miles on it when I sold it.  Sold the car with with the kit installed and instructions on what the new owner had to do.  He blew it up within a month hauling around a 4000 pound trailer.  Having modified and ran a GreaseCar kit, I know that doing so with coke your injectors eventally.  And I can they can cause other damage too.  And I also know the cost of replacing a VW TDI engine!  No thank you!!! 

Do I recommend running your Cat 3116 as you want?  No way!!!  But I do know it can be done.  Would I do it?  No way!!!  Would I run any type of water injection?  No way!!!  Would it work?  Probably.  Do I know the replacement cost of a Cat 3116?  Yep, and that is why I would not modify it.  Would I let someone like Pittsburgh Power - High performance diesel engine systems modify a engine I owned?  Yep!  They have proven their modifications and stand behind their work.
1994 U225
build #4514

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #12 –
Would suggest several things.  First, your Cat 3116 is 6.6 liters.  250 HP, 650 lb-ft torque at 1560 RPM.

As I asked in my first post, have you have valves adjusted and injector timing checked.  If not, you are likely leaving HP "on the table".

As far as overheating:  How old is the thermostat?  Caterpillar recommends changing it every three years.  Easy to do.  There are many variations on how the hydraulic fan is set up.  Many have adjustable PSI. Confirm that yours is set to the correct maximum PSI-- James Triana is a good source of information on this.  If PSI is low, fan speed will be low.  Some systems also have a thermostatically controlled HI/LO switch.  If yours does, have you confirmed that your is going to HI?  Also verify that the water pump belt is properly tensioned-- is is NOT on an automatic tensioner.

What to do if you are overheating: 

If you can conveniently pull off the road, leave engine running at 1200 RPM or so-- is should return to normal operating temperature within 2-3 minutes. 

If you can't pull over, raise RPM to around 2200 RPM (lower gear), hopefully at lighter throttle.  You can also turn on dash heater to high and high fan speed-- that IS a "second radiator".  Better for you to be uncomfortable for a couple of minutes than to burn up the engine.

Brett

Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #13 –
Great conversation,  The engine is at 120K miles.  I have had it since 80K miles with no engine maintance. All filters changed as req.  Oil 6K miles, Some coolant change with filter.  No value/injector maintance.  No thermostat change.  The heating is consistant. Up hill temp will rise, down hill temp will go down.  Normal temp at 60MPH(my TOP/normal speed) is 185-190 at 70-80 deg. level ground. Small hills will run around 198-200 deg.  ambient temp is from 70-95 deg.  Towing my 02 saturn sc1(2600 lbs.) does not seam to make a difference in temps/power or MPGs. which is always 10.2MPG  I believe that my U240 rated weighs in 24K lbs.  I did not know that I might be asking to much speed(60) from the rig, but I thought that heating was as problem with gas rigs.
Pat/Blue Angel
1995 U240 36ft
MC# 16511
Build# 4653

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #14 –
60 mph is a fine cruising speed for the U240.  It is trying to sustain 60 on steep grades that can stress the cooling system-- but that is true for any heavy vehicle.

Again, before you have to "drive around" an overheating issue, make sure everything is mechanically correct.

Brett
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #15 –
                       I have been using one for years . Have not had a cooling problem either . My Stihl  weed eater just gets with the program till I tire out . ;D ;D ;D    Brad Mertzger
Brad Metzger
2010 Phenix 45'

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #16 –
  Brad, so now you are into "weed", first Goats and now this. Boy you must be the bad boy of the family and Dave must be shaking his head!! Maybe he already knew about your "weed" problem? ^.^d
Now what is this about a "stihl"? Is that a another of those "hootch making things"?
Boy, life must be great in Virginia these days!!
John H
Coachless, now use aircraft. 2003 Ford Travelair TC280 class C. Super shape. Just for 1 yr .
1994 Ford E350 ClassC,total renovation inside and out. Now sold.
2000 U295  36' Cummins 350 c/w Banks Stinger, Resonator upgrade,Solar, LED lites.Residential fridge with slide out pantry. Build 5674. Sold
ex 92 GV 022C ored Cummins. Sold
ex 95 GV240 cat 3116. Sold
2017 Mini cooper s & 2016 land Rover LR2 HSE  LUX.
jhaygarth@aol.com    SKP #130098
treat everyone as you would like to be.

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #17 –
Quote from: pthurman48 –
Great conversation,  The engine is at 120K miles.  I have had it since 80K miles with no engine maintance. All filters changed as req.  Oil 6K miles, Some coolant change with filter.  No value/injector maintance.  No thermostat change.  The heating is consistant. Up hill temp will rise, down hill temp will go down.  Normal temp at 60MPH(my TOP/normal speed) is 185-190 at 70-80 deg. level ground. Small hills will run around 198-200 deg.  ambient temp is from 70-95 deg.  Towing my 02 saturn sc1(2600 lbs.) does not seam to make a difference in temps/power or MPGs. which is always 10.2MPG  I believe that my U240 rated weighs in 24K lbs.  I did not know that I might be asking to much speed(60) from the rig, but I thought that heating was as problem with gas rigs.

The idea that the temp needle comes off its peg so to speak is not overheating in my experience.

Every Rv owner I sold a coach to panicked if the gauge moved.  I sold and drove those exact coaches new and countless others.  At 200 indicated I would not even think of backing off myself.  No way any Rv can have a cooling system big enough to never have the gauge move like a car.

Original unihomes with 250 hp 3208's over cooled as the radiator was sized for the 6v92 and Foretravel finally blocked part of the core years later on the cat as the cold engine caused issues as I understand what happened.

As was stated verify the condition of everything then drive it IMO.

If it got past 230 I would definately back off some but not before.  Countless drives in everything made and sold up to 1995 the same way.

Had a signature lose coolant once coming out of Palm Springs at 110 degrees one day up hill and I had it floored.  As soon as I backed off the coolant loss stopped. I never pulled over and when I got back to the dealer the actual loss was minimal. 

My 320 got to 215 on purpose going into Grand Canyon on purpose to test it. 90 degree weather, steep grade on #89 and towing and driving it as hard as possible to test the engine and cooling system.

I had a large reserve at that point. 

I am not a cat mechanic but the idea that that engine is somehow different from every other diesel I have sold and driven would be hard to believe.

Countless similar conversations with coach owners upset that the temp gauges move for tote engine and trans. 

Drive it.  I would think any alarm going off was extremely pessimistic.  I got gillig to reprogram their alarms on beavers long ago.  They finally agreed after realizing their city buses ran 210-230 constantly in the summer and the trans from 220-250.

My truck fleet guys would laugh at the 200 degree stuff.

Don't blame you for your concerns but if it were mine after verifying that every part is correct I would be at 70 in the hills.  That coach was fun to drive and very peppy.
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Water Methanol Injection Kits for CAT 3116

Reply #18 –
Thanks again for all the comments.  I am gettin ready for Lufkin,Tx to Main Street Station Las Vegas, NV trip on the Dec 20, 2013 thru Jan 2, 2014. I will do all the maint. stuff including a new Block Heater.  I have to travel to another town to get any cat motor maint. , don't think I can get in before I leave for Vegas.  I am not worried, the citty cat will purrrrr all the way.  I do like the idea of improving on power, ecomony, and life span. I pal to keep the wheels rollin so that they don't rust.

Pat
Pat/Blue Angel
1995 U240 36ft
MC# 16511
Build# 4653