Generator will not start

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Generator will not start

December 08, 2013, 07:20:51 pm

My coach has been stored in an unheated warehouse since the end of October. This morning the temperature, both inside and outside of the warehouse was about 10 degrees F. Yesterday afternoon I turned on the M11 block heater. This morning the big engine started after about 5 seconds of cranking and ran fine, however the generator would not start. The generator ran fine and performed properly in October just before I put the coach in storage. I tried to start it 7 times, pausing several minutes between the attempts. On three of the attempts the engine sputtered and ran for about 5 seconds. I decided to discontinue trying because I have no experience operating the generator at this low temperature. Should it start easily at 10 degrees F? Are there any procedural suggestions for starting a cold generator? Has anyone successfully installed a block heater in a generator? Any comments or suggestions will be appreciated.

Gary

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #1 – December 08, 2013, 07:49:36 pm

The genset engine is an Izuzu 3LD1PV (3 cylinder). The hour meter for the unit shows 830 hours. The fuel system was treated with an anti gelling product before the coach was put in storage, however, I did not start and run the generator subsequent to adding the anti gelling product. Will untreated fuel gel at 10 degrees F?

Thanks
Gary

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #2 – December 08, 2013, 07:58:28 pm

On a cool or warm day, our generator will start with normal 20-30 second pre-heat time period. On very cold days, generator needs about 2-4 minutes of pre-heat to get cylinder head hot enough to burn injected fuel.

If all glow plugs are not working, cold starts will be difficult. Working glow plugs will probably need to run for many minutes. If there isn't manual control over glow plug timing, it may be required to start many times to get enough glow plug heat.

All said, without adequate pre-heat, each time generator sputters and runs, the partial run will warm up cylinder head and after several or many of these attempts, the accumulative heat may eventually heat up head to maintain combustion, so keep trying.

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #3 – December 08, 2013, 08:01:53 pm

Like Dave says, check glow plugs first. Only takes one bad one in cold weather. If OK with fuel, use a magnetic block heater to get it going. 10 degrees is very cold.

Pierce

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #4 – December 08, 2013, 08:06:19 pm

Dave M suggested that the fuel might have gelled. I checked a couple of sites on-line and found that No. 2 diesel gels between 10 degrees F and 15 degrees F. Perhaps the fuel in the lines between the fuel tank and the Izuzu engine is gelled or partially gelled. Maybe the engine will start if I warm the fuel lines and engine before attempting to start. Regardless, in the future I will start and run the genset after adding the anti-gel additive and before I put the coach in storage, to insure that the fuel lines are filled with treated fuel.

Gary

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #5 – December 08, 2013, 08:14:21 pm

Gary,

Can't help on the genset, but had a 1980 VW diesel which fuel gelled at 12 degrees one day. Had 2 babies in the car. Wasn't a pretty picture. Got towed to a heated garage ovenite and started right up. Hope its something simple.

Larry

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #6 – December 08, 2013, 08:29:22 pm

I'm with Barry as his comment reflects my experience. On our current rig you hold in the glow plug switch for as long as you deem necessary. Our previous rig, however, had the auto start system in which you simply pushed the switch and waited for the glow plugs to warm and engine to start. in cold weather it would start, sputter and die; the glow plugs weren't staying on long enough. I found the best way to get it going was to fool the system by pushing the switch, waiting until just before the starter engaged and turn it off. I'd do that three or four times and it would start up and run smoothly.
jor

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #7 – December 08, 2013, 09:01:24 pm

"I checked a couple of sites on-line and found that No. 2 diesel gels between 10 degrees F and 15 degrees F." Oops. I haven't added any anti-gel stuff to the fuel tank, and our temperatures have been under that for a few days now. The good news is that I'm not going anywhere anytime soon. How much do I need for the ~150 gallons in the tank? I'm assuming that I can still add it, and when things warm up the fuel will eventually ungel.

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #8 – December 08, 2013, 09:04:34 pm

My similar hour generator and the m11 required a complete replacement of the coaches fuel lines.

Thick fuel would show any fuel systems leaks

Bob

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #9 – December 08, 2013, 09:07:43 pm

Tractor supply has several things that will work. One of them is diesel 911 which will liquefy the gelled fuel. It tells on the bottle how much to add for how many gallons you have.

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #10 – December 08, 2013, 09:17:04 pm

The product that I chose to use is sold in an 80 ounce container and will treat 250 gallons (32 ounces per 100 gallons). The product is Power Services diesel fuel treatment. I purchase it from "Big R", a farm oriented store, but I have seen it on E-bay for $12.99 for the 80 ounce jug.

Gary

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #11 – December 08, 2013, 09:18:02 pm

Had the same problem with a diesel rabbit when the block heater wasn't work . Put two space heaters under the oil pan for an hour or two and she started right up,Gam

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #12 – December 08, 2013, 09:23:09 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – December 08, 2013, 09:04:34 pm

My similar hour generator and the m11 required a complete replacement of the coaches fuel lines.
Thick fuel would show any fuel systems leaks
Bob

Ouch! I'll stop in at MFA tomorrow and see what they have.

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #13 – December 08, 2013, 09:58:57 pm

Quote from: kb0zke – December 08, 2013, 09:23:09 pm

"My similar hour generator and the m11 required a complete replacement of the coaches fuel lines." Ouch! I'll stop in at MFA tomorrow and see what they have.

I think that we are only seeing the 97,98, and 99 coaches having the old fuel line problems. Not sure I have read other years being a problem.

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #14 – December 08, 2013, 10:02:47 pm

Quote from: Dave and Dolly Cobb – December 08, 2013, 09:58:57 pm

I think that we are only seeing the 97,98, and 99 coaches having the old fuel line problems. Not sure I have read other years being a problem.

Typical for my luck.

Bob

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #15 – December 08, 2013, 10:13:51 pm

Know of several who have had it done. Just 3 guys most of a whole day, parts, and 2 coach bucks later all is good.

My coach had it done last year, thankfully by the sellers.

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #16 – December 08, 2013, 10:50:30 pm

Quote from: Dave and Dolly Cobb – December 08, 2013, 10:13:51 pm

Know of several who have had it done. Just 3 guys most of a whole day, parts, and 2 coach bucks later all is good.

BTDT. Symptom was generator that would not keep running. It would run for a few minutes after I purged the fuel lines at the "big" fuel filter. In cold weather, we buy local seasonal fuel which normally has appropriate blends to avoid gelling.

Gary's immediate problem that started this post may be related to low temperatures. However, the coach is a 1998. Plan on replacing the fuel lines at your convenience rather than waiting for a failure at a much less convenient time and place. On a 1998 coach, the costs are maintenance/replacement rather than depreciation. I recommend that you plan to replace fuel lines and air springs soon.

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #17 – December 09, 2013, 07:42:44 am

I agree with Dave. Anti-gel treatments only work if the treated fuel as been allowed to circulate throughout the fuel system. Once gelled, the whole fuel system has to be heated above the gel point.

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #18 – December 09, 2013, 10:23:30 am

Wait until it warms up some or get a grove type blower/heater to warm the entire fuel system. Type 1 diesel helps in colder climes.
A can of 50/50 starting spray works well if the entire fuel system isn't the issue. There is a product called HEAT that works well.
(Try to) stay away from straight either.. PLEASE!

You know it's cold when driving a hot truck and it slugs to a stop.
Williston, ND 3 years ago.. I was there! -40F w/out the windchill factor..
pc

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #19 – December 09, 2013, 10:49:45 am

Quote from: Dave M – December 08, 2013, 10:59:01 pm

Another possibility, is the fuel tank more than 1/4 full ? I understand the genset runs out of fuel when the tank gets low and before the main engine runs out, just a thought.

Have had Jelled diesel fuel at 18 F, as for adding the anti jell what ever, just pouring it in the tank and expecting a miracle will not help, when you pour the 80 oz in the tank, then fill the tank with fuel, that will mix it all together, then once you get it runing you will have the treated fuel into the system.
As for old lines, its an aging thing, my 2001 needed the fuel lines replaced, I do not wait until it is dead to think about em things. Called PM, take care of the little things, it will take care of you when you need it.

So when you add anti-jell to the main tank, you have to start BOTH the main engine as well as the generator to circulate the anti-jell through all the fuel lines for a few minutes. Aqua hot as well. If everything is not run, you might as well not have added the anti jell.

No generator is the same. Some won't start even with glow plugs at 10 degrees. Only takes one bad glow plug, one tight valve, one dirty injector that shoots a straight stream instead of spraying (very common) to make starting hard or even low compression from lack of oil changes and resultant bore wear to keep it from firing up. A little of each can work against you. High resistance in the starter motor circuit really shows up in cold weather. Slow cranking engines lose pressure (and heat) past the piston rings so the air temperature never gets hot enough to explode the diesel when it's injected.

Pierce

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #20 – December 09, 2013, 12:02:15 pm

When I took mine for its service a couple weeks ago it was in the 20's and the genny wouldn't start at first. It tried but after about 2-3 seconds it shut down. After driving for 15-20 otw to the service appointment I tried starting it and it fired up and kept running. I chalked it up to being cold.

Good luck

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #21 – December 09, 2013, 01:18:55 pm

I agree with Dave M on the fuel line replacement not being year-specific, but age-specific. Our '96 had this problem (generator wouldn't keep running) 1-1/2 years ago and I read on here about the cracked fuel lines and that's exactly what our problem was. I think any coach in that 15-year-old (and older) age range would be a prime candidate for fuel line problems.

I understand this sounds like a cold weather issue, but it's worth considering that if the OP's lines are original - they may be cracked and may be contributing to the problem of starting in the cold weather as well.

As a side note: we found that removing the big propane tank was the secret to replacing that line. In our case, it was one man and his auto-crane (mounted to a truck) to remove it - and his very small friend to crawl in there and fish the lines through. This was also a great time to sand, repaint, and check/replace all the valves on the tank at our local propane dealer (we had one valve with a small leak - yikes!).

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #22 – December 09, 2013, 04:12:33 pm

Open up your fuel filler and look down in there with a flashlight to be sure the fuel level is above the small pickup that's up a little higher than the big pickup at the bottom of the tank. The generator's fuel pickup is the higher one. If you run your fuel down lower than about 1/8 to 1/4 tank the generator's pickup will be out of the fuel. Don't trust the fuel gauge on the dashboard, it's not accurate. Go look in the tank and check for yourself. You'll have to do a lot of cranking to get the generator to prime itself after you fill the fuel tank up again. Don't ask me how I know this.

Also be aware that the diesel you bought in warm weather isn't suitable for cold weather. You need to drive your coach enough to use up the warm weather fuel and refill it with cold weather fuel. The additives in the fuel are different according to the season it was sold in. Your engine will run poorly, if it starts at all, with warm weather fuel this time of year. This isn't as true for those of you with gasoline engines by the way, although gasoline additives do change according to the season it was sold in.

Re: Generator will not start

Reply #23 – December 10, 2013, 06:19:02 am

Don't know it you have the old open Power Tech, or an enclosed gen set, but if you can get to the inlet fuel connection and do the old fuel line to a bucket full of fuel that would answer the fuel line issue.

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