Water tutorial needed?

Topic: Water tutorial needed? (Read 1596 times) previous topic - next topic

Water tutorial needed?

March 29, 2014, 08:17:39 pm

This thread is actually a continuation and branch of my previous "Wet" bay? thread. jor suggested that maybe a fitting was the culprit.

jor, I agree that a fitting or a pipe would be more of a suspect than the tank. Unfortunately, Foretravel didn't design the water system for ease of inspection and repair, at least not on this coach. The bay door that opens to allow access to this area actually opens to bays. The forward one is mainly occupied by the fresh water tank, mostly in the middle (curb to street side), but more on the curb side. On the street side of that bay is the hot water heater above and the accumulator/pump below. The aft bay has the water inlet, sewer/gray water drains, and 50A electrical connection on the street side. On the curb side are the sewer and grey water tanks. They are hidden from view on the curb side by a grey "carpeted" panel, which leaves a space of about 6" between that panel and the bay door.

Back to the street side. The aft bay has a two-part fiberglass panel with all of the various connections on it. Now that the leaky faucet has been removed from that area, maybe it will be somewhat easier to gain access there. The question now is this: how does the water get from the inlet (lower center of the aft bay) into the tank (forward bay)? On the street side there are exactly three pipes visible in the forward bay: a hot and cold line, each of which goes across the top of the tank toward the curb side and one end and goes up to the kitchen on the other, and some sort of overflow/drain (same size as the cold water line) that comes down from above and exits at the floor. The hot and cold lines each have a T in them that fed the old faucet.

Maybe tomorrow afternoon I can try pulling the panel off and see if I can see what's back there. Now that the old faucet is gone, maybe that panel will be more willing to move some. Foretravel did use plenty of screws on those two panels back there. I would have thought that maybe six or eight would be plenty, but there are close to 20 of them!

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #1 – March 29, 2014, 09:13:15 pm

Sounds like your 93 is opposite of my 95. On the curb side I have the gray panel which hides the black and gray tanks. Next to that section is the water tank and the water heater. The water heater sits above the water pump and all the rest of the fresh water plumbing. The water heater makes it tough to work on the stuff under it but you can get to everything. When you're in there you will be envious of the Aqua Hot guys that have easy access to the water pump, etc.

On the street side I have the other side of the water tank along with the black/gray plumbing and the control panel (faucet, switches, cable TV and so on).

Here's a couple of photos:
1. The first one shows the curb side of my rig with the gray panel, water heater and water plumbing visible.
2. The second one shows what's behind the gray panel. The waste tanks.
3. The third one is a little hard to figure out but it is looking down at the water pump which is just in front of the water tank.
4. The fourth one is a close up of the pump and plumbing.
5. The fifth one shows the fresh water plumbing which passes from one side to other. On mine it passes under the gray tank. I think you said yours passes on top of the tank.
6. The last one shows all of the plumbing with the water pump removed. The water valve on the left is the engine coolant bypass. It provides better heat at the dash when used.

Hope these photos help. When you get everything exposed and get some light under that water heater, you can trace the PEX pipes and figure what's going where. It's a little intimidating at first but once you get a good look at it you'll figure it out.

Also, there are quite a few threads on removing the control panel (faucet, etc.). Most probably concern working on the waste tank valves. That panel (actually two panels) is a royal pain. Be sure and label the wires that connect to the water fill and water pump switches as it's easy to get them mixed up. Good luck.
jor

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #2 – March 29, 2014, 10:13:59 pm

I guess another question is about the pressurization of the water system. Is it actually all under pressure, or does the pump just supply water from the tank as needed on demand? If the tank is pressurized, that would explain a leak on the inlet side. If it isn't pressurized, I would assume that a leak on the inlet side would only show up when the tank is being filled.

I guess that if the leak was large enough it would take several days for all of the water to escape from wherever it was hiding.

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #3 – March 29, 2014, 10:32:51 pm

Quote from: kb0zke – March 29, 2014, 10:13:59 pm

Is it actually all under pressure, or does the pump just supply water from the tank as needed on demand?

Only distribution system is pressurized by the water pump or the pressure from shore water. The fresh water tank is not pressurized. However, the height of the water column in the fresh water tank will supply some pressure to all components that are below the water level in the tank.

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #4 – March 29, 2014, 11:15:47 pm

You mentioned last week that you had your water pump replaced. Did the repair guy drain the tank to to change the pump? On my coaches there are no shut off on the gravity feed supply line from the tank to the pumps. If not, he had to allow an amount of water to escape into your bays. The same with the accumulator tank as it is in the supply line after the pump.

Also you asked how the water gets into the fresh water storage tank. On both of my coaches there is a valve inside the coach that has to be opened for the hose supply line to fill the tank. Finding a water leak now in your system that is empty and not under pressure is going to be very hard I would think.

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #5 – March 30, 2014, 04:38:21 pm

I think I have the water supply lines figured out. Plumbers, please correct me. The water comes in at the inlet, goes up to near the ceiling of the aft wet bay to a T. One side of the T goes to the cold side of the outdoor faucet, now capped off. The other side of the T goes to the forward bulkhead of the forward wet bay, where it again has a T. One side goes up through the floor, and the other side goes across the fresh water tank. I can't see all the way to the other end of the tank because of electrical and fuel lines running across there. I'm assuming that there are fittings back there (between the fuel and electrical lines and the back of the hot water heater) that go to the valve under the bathroom sink. My guess is that when the valve is open the tank fills, and when the valve is closed city water is supplying the pressure for the system. Again a series of fittings takes that line down to a final T. One side of that T goes into the fresh water tank and the other side goes to the pump. The line on the other side of the pump goes to another T. One side of that T goes to the accumulator. The other side goes to another T. One side goes up behind the hot water heater and the other side ends in a drain.

Plumbers, do I have this figured out? If so, it looks to me like I've gone as far as I can with this problem. Either the water was simply left over from the leaky check valve and pump or the tank itself has a leak somewhere on one of the long sides where I can't see it. At any rate, I'm thinking that tomorrow I'll move the coach closer to the well and fill the tank a few inches. Then I'll stop filling, close the valve under the bathroom sink, and turn on the pump. If I don't get any water where it isn't supposed to be, I'll fill another couple of inches and repeat the process until I either fill the tank or get a leak.

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #6 – April 05, 2014, 08:03:19 pm

Yesterday we put some water into the tank and then ran the pump. No leaks! I then filled the tank to somewhere around 3/8 or so and we headed out for Bennett Springs State Park, since today was our auction. The pump has been on during the day, but was off over night. This morning I saw a little bit of water under the coach and a bit under the pump. None on the other side.

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #7 – April 05, 2014, 11:26:44 pm

I was about to start a thread with just this question, but think it fits here quite well....if not get lost!

Friend has U295. Asked me about this, and I do not recall this happened when we had the 270, but...

He connects to city water. Says when he runs the pump to use tank water, he gets water out the faucet but it also puts water in the tank. He tells me that he had closed the valve beneath the sink that you normally use to divert city water to the tank to fill it.

Idea why this happens? That water goes into the tank when the valve is closed and the pump was accidentally left on when using the city water?

Mike

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #8 – April 06, 2014, 12:56:23 am

With the fill valve closed, the only path between the pressurized water side of the pump and the water tank is through the pump itself. Sounds like a pump problem, perhaps a check valve within the pump.

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #9 – April 06, 2014, 01:26:05 am

Quote from: kb0zke – March 30, 2014, 04:38:21 pm

I think I have the water supply lines figured out. Plumbers, please correct me. The water comes in at the inlet, goes up to near the ceiling of the aft wet bay to a T. One side of the T goes to the cold side of the outdoor faucet, now capped off.

That part doesn't seem quite right. If the water inlet made a "T" for the tank on one side and the outdoor faucet on the other, then the outdoor faucet would never be pressurized by the pump. The only time it would ever work is when the city water pressurized it. It should receive water from AFTER the pressurizing pump.

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #10 – April 06, 2014, 10:45:49 am

Thanks Tom, will pass on to Mr. cox....I knew had to be something wrong, not operator error...which he thought might be the case. Thanks again,

Mike

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #11 – April 06, 2014, 09:49:52 pm

Brad, the connection is as I described it. I wonder of one of the two previous owners made a change?

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #12 – April 06, 2014, 10:48:30 pm

Quote from: kb0zke – April 06, 2014, 09:49:52 pm

Brad, the connection is as I described it. I wonder of one of the two previous owners made a change?

Well, that would sure be a change in mine if it were like that. I think you are right. Someone did some alteration, altho I do not understand why anyone would make such a change The only way the outdoor utility would then have any pressure would be if it were hooked up to city water pressure, right? Because the tank itself isn't pressurized, there would be no pressure at the "T" you describe without it. My utility bay is definitely pressurized either when I turn on the pump OR have it connected to city water (and of course, have the fill valve closed). Altho you have capped your water there and so the lack of pressure isn't an issue, there sure sounds like someone did some odd re-routing.

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #13 – April 06, 2014, 10:52:22 pm

Which brings me to the next question...what about the hot water at the utility bay?

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #14 – April 07, 2014, 06:13:41 pm

Also capped off, but at least that pipe comes from the curb side of the coach, which makes me think it may come from the hot water heater. Since I have hot water now, I suppose I could open the valve and see what happens.

Another question: Is the fill line pressurized? The reason I ask is that I took the panel off to try to trace the lines, and then to make sure that there were no leaks in that area I put the new check valve back on without the panel. Now, of course, if I want to put the panel back on I have to take the check valve off. Of course the tank is full!

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #15 – April 07, 2014, 06:18:11 pm

Quote from: kb0zke – April 07, 2014, 06:13:41 pm

Another question: Is the fill line pressurized? The reason I ask is that I took the panel off to try to trace the lines, and then to make sure that there were no leaks in that area I put the new check valve back on without the panel. Now, of course, if I want to put the panel back on I have to take the check valve off. Of course the tank is full!

No, if you will turn off your pump, and open a faucet or two to drain off any head pressure from either the hose or pump. I replaced my park hose wall fitting/check valve without much more water than a hand towel could catch.

But the water pump can not be replaced without all the head pressure from the water standing in the tank draining out.

(Edited to remove the part that the tank fills from the top.)

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #16 – April 07, 2014, 06:24:56 pm

Thanks, Dave. Yes, I figured that the next time the pump need replacing the tank will be drained. I'm also thinking that the next time might be a good time to replace all of the plumbing. All of it is somewhat over 20 years old now (1993 coach), so, even though most of it never sees any sunlight, it is still aging. I don't know how long a pump lasts, but if I can get five years out of this one, then the plumbing will be 25 years old.

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #17 – April 07, 2014, 06:28:53 pm

When you ever do replace the pump, do as some smarter members have done and put in a pump shut off valve. Then you can do pump repairs, filter cleaning or replacements without draining the tank.

My 93 came to me with a new pump. I have replaced my 98's pump.

I have not read of any Foretravel member (edited, needed to) replacing his "old plumbing".

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #18 – April 07, 2014, 06:39:54 pm

David, not for sure but; the piping in our coaches looks like pex or a predecessor to it.

It lasts forever. It does not conduct electricity or react to minerals in water, forgiving Vs hard pipe to freezing and heat, the limits are connections.

Pumps go bad but, in my 88 it was still going and my 94 still works. When it goes bad, I will replace it and make the mods.

I am curious if when you filled your water tank if it overflowed and the water you see is that residule? Idk

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #19 – April 07, 2014, 07:06:22 pm

Just a caution: With all the water you are getting in the wet bay over a pretty long period of time, make absolutely certain that you have towels or other absorbent material such that the water does not reach the sides/back/drop down door of the wet bay where it can migrate into the bulkhead area.

Water in the middle of the FG floor is NOT an issue, it is only around the perimeter where it can migrate down into the structure of the coach.

Brett

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #20 – April 07, 2014, 07:12:51 pm

Quote

I have not read of any Foretravel member replacing his "old plumbing".

I did. Didn't need to; just wanted to. Installed some ball valves too as the 95 doesn't have the manifold.
jor

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #21 – April 07, 2014, 08:11:54 pm

Jor,

Did you use pex valves. Looks pretty close to get a crimper in there.

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #22 – April 07, 2014, 09:40:56 pm

Yes, Brett, I do have towels in there, and I check it several times each day. Today I actually caught a drop at a connection point. It was a threaded fitting, and I was able to tighten it. A couple of hours later the spot under it was dry.

No, John, the tank isn't overfilled. I filled it to about 3-4" below the top. The Audit showed full, but just a bit of water use knocked it down to 3/4 full.

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #23 – April 08, 2014, 08:51:02 am

Quote

Did you use pex valves.

Used regular ball valves with the big handles for the drains and the water tank exit point. Used these others near the toilet and faucets.
jor

Re: Water tutorial needed?

Reply #24 – April 08, 2014, 12:30:30 pm

Dave, not sure this is correct... On our 99' at least, the the tank is filled from the bottom and the fill valve is teed into the shower supply line. What keeps it from draining out of the tank at the city fill inlet is the check valve in the pump. I installed a shut off in front of the pump when I had the wet bay torn apart for my bulkhead repair. There are two fittings at the bottom of the tank. One is the tank drain and the other is the pump feed/fill line. The only fitting at the top of the tank is the overflow/tank vent. In the first attached picture taken at an early stage of reconstruction, you can see the tank drain on the left, and the tank fill/pump feed on the right behind the pump. The second picture is further along in the reconstruction and shows the drains. This before installing the water heater.
Don

Quote from: Dave and Dolly Cobb – April 07, 2014, 06:18:11 pm

No, if you will turn off your pump, and open a faucet or two to drain off any head pressure from either the hose or pump. The tank fills from the top off the inside valve, which you can hear if you listen near the tank. I replaced my park hose wall fitting/check valve without any more water than a hand towel could catch.

But the water pump can not be replaced without all the head pressure from the water standing in the tank draining out.

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