Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Topic: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics (Read 5363 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #25 – April 02, 2014, 01:20:45 pm

Ken,

Here is a link to Sun Hydraulics with info on their systems. This is the tech tips page but look around as there is more stuff there. Check flow rate and pressure as that's the only way to diagnose hydraulic problems. You will need the proper specs and it's possible Sun can give them to you.

Technical Tips | Sun Hydraulics

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #26 – April 02, 2014, 03:04:20 pm

@Alan Thanks for your explanation. It is basically what I have come up with from my research. You stated it very well.

@Bill you are correct the solenoid is out of the circuit at the moment. I pulled it yesterday and it shows clears signs of being shorted out. See attached pic. The default position of the solenoid when no power is applied is closed so no fluid is going thru the Hydraforce. I do believe that Alan is correct that if the Hydraforce was working that it would slow the fan by spilling fluid back into the reservoir.

@Bret You too sir are correct. There are 2 controls. The Hydraforce and the Sun Hydraulics. Since the Hydraforce is not activated only the Sun Hydraulics is affecting the circuit.

@Keith Thanks for the links to the docs. There's a bunch of em'. It will take me a while to work thru those!

My current plan is to put a pressure gauge before the motor and see if it's up to specs. I've ordered a 3000psi pressure gauge from Amazon that should be here tomorrow. I plan to have a tee made up so that I can place it just before the inlet to my fan motor. If the psi is up to specs there I figure it has to be the fan motor. I talked to Billy Jack yesterday (@FOT) and he says the motor is not longer made and they have a substitute that requires an adaptor plate and a hub something or other.

He needed to check with Mike Grimes who was out yesterday so should hear something from Billy Jack later today.

If pressure is low will try to boost by adjusting the Sun Hydraulics if I can find the adjustment.

@Alan Do you think I should check flow as well as pressure? I'll have to look for a flow meter. I might have to have a shop do that.

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #27 – April 02, 2014, 03:07:55 pm

Should have mentioned that it does look like I can adjust the Sun Hydraulics maybe... See the picture I posted above (it's not very clear). Haven't tried to get an allen wrench in there yet. It's in a spot where I'll have to work blind.

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #28 – April 02, 2014, 10:57:17 pm

In the hydraulic world oil flow is what creates speed and pressure creates force energy. So with that said they work together. Your pump produces more flow with engine rpm. The fan motor and other restrictions create pressure. If the relief a safety device is set low or there are things that are causing more pressure the oil produced by the pump will be directed back to tank or reservoir and not Thur the fan motor to turn the fan at proper rpm. I understand that the 2 speed controller is disabled and it defaults to max flow. In hydraulic there is not a 2 speed motor. It is variable flow. It is considered 2 speed if the pump is being driven at a constant rpm. Our engines do not do that. 10 mph or 70 mph is different rpm so the pump produces different flow. I will look at mine to make sure there are not any weird valves like a pressure comp valves. They are not common in this type of system

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #29 – April 03, 2014, 04:43:19 am

Well said !!

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #30 – April 03, 2014, 06:40:53 am

I posted a second post last night and did not see the second page. I believe that the sun device that you talk about is the relief or the circuit safety. A gear pump will build pressure if dead headed until something blows. And oil goes every where. If you are going to use a gauge the proper way to set a relief is to dead head the pump and close the Allen screw until the proper system pressure is met go a little above the spec then back off to set pressure then lock the Allen screw. That is real world. Your world fan motor is old and requires more pressure to turn. I would use the gauge tee before the motor and play with it. Most seals on motors can handle as much as 2000psi. But are oil cooler fan motors run in the 700 to 2000 psi. The higher having another component in serious with the fan. I will post a phone number of a great supply chain that will give you great prices for all of the components. The prices quoted is very high.I buy fan motors like on mine all of the time for under 500. Get the numbers off of the plate and post.

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #31 – April 03, 2014, 08:55:00 am

The Sun Hydraulics unit has a huge range of PSI. When first installed, the fan did not turn at all, even at high engine RPM. Adjusting it (screwing in) very quickly brought line pressure (measured between pump and fan motor) to 2200 PSI which is the Foretravel spec for maximum PSI in the U240 at governed RPM. I found by experimenting that 1500 PSI was adequate for cooling in all but extreme conditions.

"T" the gauge in, get the specs from James Triana at Foretravel and set it. Back off PSI if no overheating to save HP and MPG.

Brett

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #32 – April 03, 2014, 12:28:31 pm

@Brett I hope that's all it takes. If I can just turn a screw and fix this I'll be in ecstatic! If it's like every other repair I've done it's usually the worst case.

Which in this case will be that I have to replace the fan motor.

Oh well I do what I gotta do.

Still haven't heard back from Billy Jack on cost for a new fan motor... May have to rattle his cage today.

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #33 – April 03, 2014, 12:35:58 pm

@Alan The fan motor is a John S. Barnes GM5-25-HF11R6-20-R-EU. When I talked to Billy Jack he referred to it as a GM5. Thanks for the help!

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #34 – April 03, 2014, 12:39:38 pm

Thought I'd mention that the gauge I ordered is due in today. Probably late today so will be tomorrow before I can get it in. Will post details and pics once have it installed.

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #35 – April 04, 2014, 05:43:32 am

I would play with the relief before I bought anything. I have seen reliefs get trash in them and stick open causing bypass to tank. And system won't build pressure. After you have been running feel the different components for heat. If there is big heat difference that is an indication of bypass. Another test is to take the case drain line off the fan motor put in bucket run for a minute and see how much oil bypassed. Should be very little. Before make sure your tank is full. I will ck on motor.

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #36 – April 04, 2014, 09:17:00 pm

Got a lot done today. Visited 3 hydraulics shops on Tucson here and got almost everything I needed.

Tee and adaptors to mount pressure gauge

New solenoid for Hydraforce

New set screw for adjustment on Sun Hydraulics

[/list]

I was able to pull the sent screw out of the Sun Hydraulics but was not able to budge the lock nut on the set screw. See pics below. Was hoping to get a new one.

At Motion Industries got a new solenoid for the Hydraforce. Talked to the guy about how to get the solenoid off. The nut on the end was sort of buried and I couldn't get a wrench on it. He took me back to the shop and went at it with a big vice and some wrenches till he got it off. The shaft the solenoid went on was corroded so he pulled out a monkey wrench and twisted the solenoid off for me. $30 later and I have a new solenoid and the original disassembled.

Great guy and couldn't have been more helpful. Couldn't help me with the set screw. Tried to come up with the parts to make a tee to put my pressure gauge in but he didn't have everything. He referred me to American Hose and Rubber.

At American Hose and Rubber I show the guy the gauge and tell him the hose size. He takes me in the back and we start walking down row after row of hydraulic parts stopping every now and then to pull something out. On advise of Dave Katsuki decided to mount the gauge remote by adding a short piece of hydraulic hose to the tee. Explained that to the guy he starts pulling parts to make a 3' hose. He also suggests that I get caps for the tee and the end of the hose so I can install and remove the gauge easily. Great idea. I take him up on it. 15 minutes later $17 for parts and $19 for the hose I'm out of there. He couldn't help with the set screw either but referred me to Tucson Fluid Power Technologies.

At Tucson Fluid Power Technologies. Show the guy my set screw he disappears in the back. While I'm waiting I see on display several Sun Hydraulics. One has my exact set screw. Guy comes back and says he tried to find an old one he could steal one from but no luck. I show him the one on display and he says yeah but that one would cost $200 bucks! He wouldn't sell just the set screw. Can't blame him for that. He refers me to Copper State Nut & Bolt.

At Copper State. Show him the set screw and he heads into the back room. Comes back and says that he only has set screws about half a long as what I need. Ask if he has a bolt that would work. A quick check and I have one in my hand. No charge the guy says!

I get home and call Sun Hydraulics to see if I can get a set screw from them. Unfortunately they are in Florida and there is 3 hour difference and they are gone for the day.

So I test the new solenoid by putting 12v to it and I can hear and see it move. Yes! I install the solenoid back in the Hydraforce. I'm not wiring it up yet. I'm going to wait until I have the fan running then just run 12v to it to see if the fan slows. In theory it should.

Then I disconnect hose 9 in my hose flow diagram and install the tee for the gauge. Goes in without a problem.

I take the bolt I got from Copper State and use a punch to put an indent in the end then use a drill bit to deepen it a little. Didn't get it exactly in the center but close enough. Didn't get a picture after I drilled it but you get the idea. Use a stop nut, a metal washer, and a rubber washer to red neck engineer a replacement for the set screw. See pics. In the pics you can see the stop nut has a nylonish washer set into it similar to a lock nut. One of the hydraulics guys says it to keep any fluid that makes it up the threads in. I do plan to get a new one from Sun Hydraulics if I can but plan to use my red neck version to test with.

So tomorrow I plan to fill up with hydraulic fluid, zip tie all of the hydraulic lines back together, install the gauge and fire her up. Once I have her running I'll check the hydraulic fluid levels and fill if needed. Then I can start monkeying with the set screw on the Sun Hydraulic. Hopefully that will bring the fan speed up. If I'm able to change the fan speed and pressure using the Sun Hydraulic set screw I'll do a test drive and stop along the way checking fan speed and temps. I may also try pulling the fan drain trick that Alan suggests to see how much fluid is coming out. You can be sure I'll let everyone know the results.

Heard back from Billy Jack. Says Mike Grimes is out until Monday and will get back to me then.

Wish me luck!

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #37 – April 04, 2014, 10:20:08 pm

Still hope you can get the specs from James Triana.

He was able to give me max PSI at governed RPM.

Either that fact or fan RPM.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Sun unit allowed very quick adjustment from zero PSI to over 2000 PSI.

Look forward to tomorrow's installment.

Brett

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #38 – April 05, 2014, 12:35:42 am

@Brett James did send me this document. It raises more questions than it answers. If I average the fan speed and psi it looks like 2000 for both is within specs. I plan to do like you and increase the pressure just enough to control engine temperature.

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #39 – April 05, 2014, 07:46:39 am

Ken,

I like the way you think. I hope it works, this could help a lot of members going down the road I would think.

Larry

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #40 – April 05, 2014, 07:52:44 am

Ken,

Once you determine which set up you have (original/modified and number of fans) looks like you can check either fan RPM or line PSI to get it right. Probably safest is to adjust to just below the PSI rating at governed RPM. Make sure the hydraulic system filters are not old and restricted.

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #41 – April 05, 2014, 10:46:05 am

If you would post size of your bolt for you made I will look in my scrape parts for one. Looks like a Vickers relief screwed into a sun block. I have a lot of them. If you unscrew the valve that the set screw went into there will be numbers on the side. I may have the component. It seals with a BOSS o ring. 90 d not 70. Also use never seize on the shaft where the solenoid attaches saves lots of headache in the future. Let me know.
I would say you are going to make a very good red neck mechanic like me. End results it works and no leaks

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #42 – April 05, 2014, 06:23:29 pm

Got the fluid back in, tighten all the fittings, and hooked up the pressure gauge. Screwed the relief in about halfway and started the engine. At 600rpm (idle) the gauge was only showing 100psi. Screwed the relief in few turns and no change. Finally screwed it all the way in till it bottomed and still only 100psi. Check fan speed and it's 348rpm. Have Dori run the throttle up to 2000rpm and gauge only goes to a little less then 1000psi and the fan speed settles in at 850rpm.

It looks like it's the Sun Hydraulics or probably more correctly the relief valve is bad?? Does anyone have any ideas on where else I should check pressure? Can I pull the Sun Hydraulics and take to a hydraulics shop and have it tested? I'm fishing for ideas if anyone has any.

Here is a pic of where I installed the pressure gauge.

@Alan sorry didn't see your post until after I had done all my work. I'm draining the fluid again now so will be able to pull the valve tomorrow. Will get you the number then. The set screw is a 3/8" fine thread. Hope that helps.

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #43 – April 06, 2014, 09:12:30 am

Morning Ken,
I have only read the last few post but can see you are deep in to your fan problem.
Just noticed you said you put T in line 9. Have you or did you earlier check pressure straight off the Hydraulic pump?
I just didn't see that.

Best of luck and once again thanks for posting.

Barry & Donna

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #44 – April 06, 2014, 11:59:21 am

@Barry No I haven't checked pressure at the pump. I have given thought to checking pressure at line 6 which is where both outputs from the pump come together and in theory I would have the highest pressure. My concern is that if the Sun Hydraulics is spilling fluid back into the reservoir that the pressure on 6 would be the same as 9. Also the pump was replaced about a year ago.

The main issues with checking pressures at different locations is that if I don't drain the system before pulling hoses I have a huge mess!

Draining the system is a pain. There isn't a drain so I'm using a syphon hose to empty the reservoir. I've tried a drill pump but couldn't get it primed. I also tried a 1/2"id hose to syphon but it allowed air to travel back up the hose and stop the syphon so I'm using a 3/8" hose to syphon that is very very slow. I just start it into a 5 gallon bucket and then let it run overnight.

Putting oil back on is not much fun either.

The reservoir is tucked into the drivers side corner behind the tail light and is impossible to tip a jug into. I use a funnel tied to my ladder with zip ties and an 8' 1/2" hose attached to reach over to the reservoir. This requires me to stand on a ladder tipping a 5 gal bucket into the funnel. I've been looking for a manual 5 gallon pump but all the ones on Amazon are expensive and have bad reviews. Arggg my life is so...hard!

If anyone has a better method please chime in.

Unless someone comes up with a better idea I plan to pull the Sun Hydraulics and take it to a hydraulics shop where I hope they can bench test it. If it checks out OK I'll probably admit defeat and take the coach to the hydraulics shop and pay them to figure it out.

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #45 – April 06, 2014, 12:54:24 pm

Ken,
I think your right on track. You could check the motor drain to see if there is significant flow but the lines are so much smaller I doubt they could account for such a drop in pressure. I doubt you'll find any useful information by checking pressure at other points in the system. And it's hard to believe the pump could be so bad to produce so little pressure. Flow meters would be lovely but not very practical due to cost and work involved to install them.

If it were me I would play with the Sun unit. I'm imaging the adjusting screw presses against a stiff spring that loads a plunger valve. Since turning in the screw should produce more pressure (and you're getter too little now) I would guess the plunger is seized in the open position. Tapping on it with a hammer and a transfer punch (passing through the middle of the spring) might free it up and you would see an increase in the pressure. That would confirm that the Sun unit was the cause. It just might free it up to work correctly or you might just want to try to find a new replacement at that point. On the cautionary side it could close the valve completely but still be seized and you could exceed the design maximum pressure and blow something. Testing at idle would minimize that possibility and having the gauge would tell you right away to shutdown. As I said before I'm no expert in this so you need to procedure with what your are comfortable doing or not doing, but that's what I think I would try.

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #46 – April 06, 2014, 05:31:31 pm

@Fitz Thanks for the feedback.

I got my tools out and went to work on the Sun Hydraulics. The body screws right into the bottom of the reservoir along with 2 other hoses. Not a lot of room in there... I disconnected the 2 hoses (6 & 9) from the tee into the SH. I was able to get the body of the SH to move but there wasn't enough room for it to spin around with the tee on it. Tried to get the tee off but couldn't get it to budge. Tried using a large box end wrench as an extension bar on the wrench and put all of my 200lb into it but no go... Hummm if I remove hose 7 then the elbow in the bottom of the reservoir I'd have just enough room to spin the SH off. I remove hose 7 and put a wrench on the elbow again with all my weight get nothing. I tried this several times with different wrenches and no go. I think I need to gain some weight.

I'm going to admit defeat on this one. That sucker's not coming off for me. Tomorrow I'll start calling hydraulic shops to see if any do in field work. I'm sure they do. As usual I'll keep everyone posted.

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #47 – April 06, 2014, 11:06:17 pm

Your last pic leads me to believe that it is block with a relief screwed in one end. Take box end wrench that fits the whole cartrage that is on the right side of your pic and use a large hammer to break it loose. It will come out just like the solenoid valve did. The o ring probably is melted and holding it. Be careful not to break it from the bottom of your tank. Age is a killer to break things loose. Heat and pb blaster helps.

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #48 – April 06, 2014, 11:53:21 pm

@Alan Thanks. I like that idea. Dave Katsuki is here in the campground and volunteered to give me a hand. Between the two of us maybe we can come up with half a brain! I did try putting a wrench on the block and another on the nut but it's in an awkward position (the exhaust is in the way) and couldn't get much oomph in it. I'll try again with heat and PB Blaster. I am a little concerned about breaking the connection loose from the bottom of the reservoir.

That would be bad!~

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #49 – April 07, 2014, 12:52:04 am

Ken,

My setup is the same one that Bill C. and Pierce have with two fans, a hydroforce solenoid valve, and a 190 degree fan motor switch. I did not see a Sun Hydraulics valve on my system. I don't have an extra dash switch to disable the 190 degree switch like Bill's, but on the wiring diagram B-2035 it shows the switch tied into the aux pump switch on the dash for the extra dash heat! There is a 10A fuse in the dash fuse box marked Aux Pump/Hyd Fan. Pulling this fuse will disable the Aux Pump and the fan switch will default to high speed at idle. If you have the Aux Pump it may show the same on your wiring diagram. If it is the same make sure the fuse isn't blown and the Aux Pump switch lights up when on.

I discovered all of this when looking at mine today and noticed the switch disconnected and the fans running at high speed all the time. I haven't had any heating problems but now the system works as it should and the fans run slow at idle. I also checked the fans at a higher idle (1200rpms) and they were running at high speed. I haven't road tested but the engine never got above normal operating temp (175 degrees) at either idle speed.

With the engine off I checked the fan motors by turning the blades slowly to feel the pumps working. There should be some resistance felt as the pump moves inside. I also checked for leaking fan motor seals which were replaced in 07 when the hydraulic fan pump was replaced. While underneath, I did notice a twisted hose at the bottom connection to the hydraulic pump which may be causing some restriction to oil flow. The reservoir was also about a quart low of oil.

I called Ray Thompson last friday at Ray Thompson Auto Service in Dothan, Al who replaced the hydraulic fan pump on mine back in 07. He remembered my coach and told me he liked it so much he tried to buy it from the prior owner. He also told me he owns a Tiffin now but has worked on motorhomes all his life. I will ask him if he disconnected the fan switch and the reasoning for it. I like having it on because it saves horsepower and fuel, and reduces wear and tear on the fan motor pumps.

Don't feel bad, you've given it one helluva try. Many of us have learned a lot through your experience and what others have posted here.

If you pass this way I'll treat you to a fried shrimp po-boy and a Barq's root beer from Pirate's Cove!

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Jerry aka Murph

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