Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Topic: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics (Read 5363 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #50 – April 07, 2014, 10:56:00 am

@Jerry I don't have a dash switch to override the 190 degree fan motor switch either. I do have the Aux Fan switch and I just happen to figure out where that pump is while laying on my back under the coach entertaining myself with the hydraulics system. My solenoid was disconnected and so is the power to the hi/low switch. The power wire is just hanging there. Now that I know yours is hooked up to the Aux switch I probably power if there since I can use the fuse as a switch for the hi/low if I want to test/play with it! I tend to stay away from the cold so don't need the extra heat to the dash all that often.

I've been thinking about what Alan said about heating up the Sun Hydraulics block and pulling out the relief cartridge. This makes a lot of sense. With the SH block being made of aluminum it should expand more readily than the steel cartridge. In theory should allow me to get it off. That's my dream for today anyway. Once I have the cartridge I can just visit some of the friendly hydraulic shops here in town and in exchange for some cash money american walk out with a repaired/new one. Yeah! I had thought about using heat but was worried about ruining the o-rings but duh... those are replaceable and if I get a new one I bet it comes with o-rings.

And I'd love to sit down with you over a fried shrimp lo-boy and a root beer! Won't be this year we will be in PNW but you never know maybe next year.

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #51 – April 07, 2014, 11:34:42 am

Ken,

It might be easier to remove the reservoir tank before trying to remove the Sun Hydraulics valve. The reservoir looks like like it is strapped in with metal straps and not welded in place. If you can disconnect the hoses and remove the reservoir with the valve attached then you can be more careful and turn it upside down to soak the threads on the valve with a rust buster before trying to break it loose.

Can you feel the pump in the fan motor working when you turn it by hand?

Jerry aka Murph

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #52 – April 07, 2014, 04:28:43 pm

Success! The Sun Hydraulics valve is off. Put some PB Buster on it, then some heat, then a wrench with another wrench as an extension, then some brute force and off it came.

I'm pretty sure the internal spring is broken. When I shake it back and forth I can hear it rattle. The part number is RPGC JAN. I've already found a couple on ebay rpgc jan in Business & Industrial | eBay for less than $50. I'm checking with a shop here in town to see if they can get it for me. It will take a few days before I'll have one in my hands. Looks like I get a few days off!

Pics of course... The second pic shows the original set screw and my 2 red neck versions.

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #53 – April 07, 2014, 07:34:05 pm

Ken,

Congratualations,, You are the man.

Larry

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #54 – April 12, 2014, 08:12:46 pm

Well.... the news is not good. I put in the new RPGC JAN and fired up the coach. Pressure at idle is the same. Right at 100psi maybe even a little less. Had Dori take the engine to 1500rpm and only about 800psi. Cranked the valve adjustment down while the engine was running but had no effect. Bummer. I had such high hopes.

I decide to try Alan's suggestion and pulled the fan drain hose pushed on another piece of hose and put the other end in a bucket. Had Dori fire up the coach and for a while didn't see anything but after about 10 seconds hydraulic fluid started pouring out. It wasn't a gusher but a pretty steady flow.

So my guess is that indeed it's the fan motor. I've already talked to Billy Jack and he says the motor is no longer available but they have a substitute. It does require an adaptor plate for the fan, the motor mount and the hub. Price is $1192 before Motorcade discount. Current plan is to call him early Monday and have him ship it out to me. I'm just glad the mothership is still supporting 22 year old coaches. If I had to have someone fabricate a custom solution it would be at least that much.

So if any of you have any other ideas speak up now so I can check em' out tomorrow before I call Billy Jack Monday.

Thanks everyone for the help. Especially Fitz, Alan, and Brett for their great ideas and the effort you guys put in to help a fellow ForeTraveler!

Of course I'll be posting pics of the install when the fan gets here.

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #55 – April 12, 2014, 08:21:03 pm

Forgot to mention that the RPGC JAN valve from Sun Hydraulics did need replacement anyway. There were 2 plastic rings next the the bottom o-ring that were broken, it rattled when I shook it (the new one doesn't), and the adjustment screw was buggered up all to hell. The new one came with a cover for the screw to prevent it from corroding. Must have been redesigned somewhere down the line.

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #56 – April 12, 2014, 09:19:26 pm

I thought I read on the Forum that fan hydraulic motors are rebuild-able, and/or there are gasket kits available.

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #57 – April 12, 2014, 11:41:25 pm

That is a bummer Ken. I guess you figure it's the motor because the pump was replaced exactly a year ago and you made it through all last summer with no issues. I always think of hydraulic motors failing when they start leaking but maybe not. On the pump thread last year you mentioned the hydraulic filter was missing. Did you confirm this? If so, I wonder if dirt caused the both your pump and now finally the motor to fail? (with the majority of the damage to the motor occurring prior to having a filter installed)

Do you think there is any chance the Hydroforce is stuck open (even without the solenoid powered) and bypassing the 2nd half of the pump (i.e.. running in low speed)?
BTW, I don't blame you if you're tired of messing with this. Easy for us armchair mechanics to make suggestions for you.

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #58 – April 13, 2014, 12:00:28 am

Hi Ken,
Somewhere on this forum there is info for a man in West Virginia that rebuilds the hyd fan motors. I believe one of our members has used his service. I found the info.

Mr. Wayne Beckett
J & S Hydraulics, Inc
785 Airport Road
Sutton, WV 26601

Office: 304-765-7008
Cell: 304-619-4776
FAX:304-765-0109
Raymond

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #59 – April 13, 2014, 10:27:38 am

Quote from: Barry & Cindy – April 12, 2014, 09:19:26 pm

I thought I read on the Forum that fan hydraulic motors are rebuild-able, and/or there are gasket kits available.

My understanding is that SOME hydraulic fan motors are rebuildable ... and others are not. On our coach there are 2. One (maybe $650) can be rebuilt with new seals. The other (around $3000!!) cannot successfully be rehabbed. well ... it CAN ... but none of the shops will guarantee it nor will they test it after installing the new gaskets, according to the report I read. Guess which one is leaking on our coach??

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #60 – April 13, 2014, 05:29:27 pm

ouch I think that is odd they will not test them.

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #61 – April 13, 2014, 06:22:26 pm

Well ... if they do not pass the pressure test, then the shop is out the rebuild fee! Probably why they do not want to rebuild them in the first place.

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #62 – April 13, 2014, 07:03:21 pm

I've spent the morning pulling the fan motor. Since I have the motor out I'm thinking I might as well take it to a couple of hydraulic shops here in Tucson to see if any are interested in rebuilding it. There are 2 reason I can think of for not rebuilding.

Parts not available

Case worn or damaged

[/list]

I talked with a guy here in the campground who suggested just putting a ball valve in place of the motor, run engine then gradually close the ball valve watching for pressure to build (simulating a load). If it builds the fan motor is the problem if not it's somewhere else. i.e.: the pump or maybe the solenoid. I found a document online from Toro that talks about a test kit that basically does the same thing.

Since I already have soooo much time invested in this I'll probably try putting in the ball valve in. It seems like a good way to test if the motor is the issue. While I'm out getting the ball valve and adaptors for the hoses I'll probably check to see if anyone will do a rebuild on the motor.

@JohnFitz In my thread from last year I was mistaken about how my hydraulic pump worked. I assumed that one port was for the fan motor and the other was for the power steering. In fact there is a separate pump on the top back of the engine that powers the power steering. Both ports on my "tandem" pump are used for the radiator fan. When I checked my reservoirs last year the power steering reservoir was missing the filter not the radiator reservoir. Sorry for the confusion. When I get some time I'll update the thread with the new information. Also I don't think the HydraForce solenoid is the issue. While I had it out I hooked it up to 12v and could see and hear the plunger retracting. That tells me that in the default state the HydraForce is closed so not involved. It is possible that fluid is leaking past the o-rings though. I think I would be a very small amount and would not drop the pressure so drastically but I've been wrong before.

@Raymond I'll probably call Wayne. Can't hurt to have another voice involved. I remember when Jon wrote about him. Sounded like a good guy. Might have something to new to add. Thanks for finding the contact info.

Stay tuned for the next episode tomorrow!

see ya
ken

Edited to add that I found a cheap hand pump that works! It's a Pennzoil Multi-Use pump that I got from Walmart for $8. Well worth the money. Just can't push it too hard. Slow and easy and it does a great job. Much better than the funnel and hose I was using. Added some pics.

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #63 – April 13, 2014, 09:44:02 pm

The pump you bought is also sold at harbor freight and is what I was going to recommend for oil transfer.

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #64 – April 14, 2014, 06:19:18 am

Ken the ball valve is a good idea. When you do that make sure you cap the case drain line and put valve in place of the fan motor in and out lines. With your gauge tee on the inlet side of the valve. Slowly close the valve this will dead head the pump. I would back my relief most of the way out. It should build pressure instantly and hold steady then you can turn your relief in and watch pressure build. I would not go much over 2000 psi. If it does not build pressure you have other issues. Most motor have a common mount. You can also try sun source I can give you a inside person there. CSX does a lot of business with them. Let me know.

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #65 – April 14, 2014, 03:50:27 pm

I talked to another guy here in the park who does construction (mostly burying light guide). He has a lot of experience with hydraulic on his equipment and he didn't like the idea of the ball valve simulating the pump load. His opinion was that it would be real easy to take it a little too far and close off the circuit and blow out a hydraulic line if not the pump. After that conversation decided just to take the motor around to see if it could be rebuilt.

Tried 2 hydraulics shops. Both said it's an gear pump with an aluminum housing. The gears eventually wear down the body and it would have to be replaced. Since it's a John Barnes motor they make mostly OEM motors to whatever spec the company wants. Makes it really hard to find parts since the are each pretty unique. They both called it a throw away.

This is pretty much the same story I heard last year when I was trying to get my pump rebuilt.

Sooo I'm tired of messing with it! I've ordered the motor and adaptors from FOT. Should be here in a few days.

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #66 – April 14, 2014, 04:00:29 pm

Ken,

To satisfy curiosity, might dismantle the old pump and see what is worn.

We have much the same problem on the sail boat with the raw water impeller wearing (with dirt in the water of course) on the cover plate. "Milling" the plate on a piece of glass with wet dry sandpaper often works to give added life. Might give you a backup if that is all that is required.

Brett

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #67 – April 16, 2014, 10:53:26 pm

Got bored waiting for my fan motor to show up today and disassembled the old motor. Put a magnate on it and yep the body is all aluminum. The gears are steel. The motor internals shows lots of signs of wear.

I think I've sort of figured out the motor drain. There is only one seal on the motor. It's on the shaft that the radiator fan is attached to. If too much pressure builds up in the pump the hydraulic fluid can find it's way up the drive shaft and head for the seal. The drain is there to give the fluid some place to go instead of building pressure against the seal.

Anyway here are the pics.

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #68 – April 17, 2014, 04:10:34 pm

Nice job Ken, it looks like the cylinder walls are scored. Is it possible there had been some debris in the oil system, or more likely the wearing out of the body allowing the gears more contact with the walls?

Larry

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #69 – April 17, 2014, 07:13:29 pm

You need to flush out the whole system and get out all the metal and crap out and make sure the whole is clean including the motor or you will be doing it all
over again
Peter

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #70 – April 17, 2014, 07:31:32 pm

Ken, I second Oldguys opinion. You need to make sure your existing oil is clean. Your filters should pick up any debris but why take a chance.
Nice job!

Richard B

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #71 – April 17, 2014, 07:40:57 pm

Actually, as long as the reservoir (where the filters are located) to pump hose is clean, you are good to go. As stated, the filter will pick up any other debris.

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #72 – April 18, 2014, 12:09:44 am

Thanks guys but it would be extremely difficult for me to flush all hoses. I'm in a dirt with gravel cover site and every time I pull a hose I risk dropping it in the gravel and picking up more debris. It's tough working under the coach. There is not much room and there is lots of old grease and dirt just waiting to contaminate the hose ends. I have drained all the fluid I can, and I'm installing new fluid and new filters. The existing filters and oil is only a year old. They where replaced when the pump failed last year. It seems likely that the damage was done back then and has taken until now for the symptoms to manifest. Also don't forget the fan motor is 22 years old with 185,000 miles on it.

The new pump arrived today. I mounted the motor on the adaptor plate. Then mounted the adaptor plate on the radiator mount and installed it in the coach. Started losing light and making stupid mistakes so quit for the day. Just need to finish up the radiator mount install, hookup the hydraulic hoses, install new filters, and fill with fluid tomorrow.

see ya
ken

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #73 – April 18, 2014, 06:52:42 am

Hurry Ken, I am holding my breath !!!

Re: Need help understanding my radiator hydraulics

Reply #74 – April 19, 2014, 12:03:27 am

Sorry Bill. Take a breath...here's the update.

I finished the install of the fan motor today and filled with fluid. Used the Delo 400 from Costco right out of the box. I could snake the suction hose down the handle side and it held itself in place. Only left about a 1/4 cup of oil in the container. When I got to the last one I poured what was left of the other 2 into the last one.

Unfortunately my lovely DW was taken sick yesterday afternoon and only got worse overnight. Was in bed all day so didn't get to test the new fan motor. I did start the coach and let it idle. My pressure gauge showed the same as before between 100psi and 200psi. I check fan speed and it was at 415rpm at 600 engine rpm. That's only about 60 rpm more than I was getting before. Since the engine was cold I didn't want to stress it by doing a full throttle test. Will take for a test drive tomorrow (if DW is up for it), let it warm up and test at full throttle. If it doesn't meet specs I may just head for FOT and hand it over to those guys an say fix it!

I checked the filters and saw no sign of shrapnel but eyes aren't so good anymore.

See pic.

see ya
ken

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