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Coolants for Diesel Engines

With the possible exception of the smallest Cummins engine (B), all diesel (Cummins, Caterpillar, Detroit Diesel) all have the same coolant requirements.  A phone call a few minutes ago from a Foretravel owner points out that this is NOT common knowledge by those new to diesel engines. And, the very last coach I did a mechanical inspection on had a messed up coolant-- it was OAT-based coolant to which someone had added a coolant filter with 12 units of SCA.

Let's divide coolant typed into three:

Regular Prestone, etc for your car= high silicate coolants= NOT acceptable for diesel engines.

"Low silicate for diesel coolant with added SCA (Supplemental Cooling Additive)".  Acceptable, SCA needs to be tested and added annually (it is sacrificial and needs to be replenished).  Three year life. SCA can be added by liquid or by coolant filters with "units" of SCA.

The new generation OAT-based coolants (Caterpillar ELC, Texaco ELC, Fleetguard ES Complet OAT, etc).  Nothing to test or add unless over 300,000 miles.  6 year/600,000 life. It is critical that ONLY coolant filters with ZERO units of SCA be used. You do NOT add SCA to OAT-based coolants.

Each of your engine owners manuals will give the same chapter and verse.

Again, do NOT use regular car coolant.  Do not add SCA to OAT-based coolant and do not forget to test and add SCA to regular diesel coolant.

Change per manufacturers recommendation for the kind of coolant you have.

Brett

Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #1
Brett  ----  Thanks for this info  ----  several years ago I changed coolant to an Extended Life Coolant (ELC) and am presently having the coolant checked for proper additive concentration by a trucking co.  Thanks again and have a great day  ----  Fritz
Fritz & Kathy Johnson
1991 36'

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #2
Fritz,

Make sure that the test strips are for the specific kind of coolant you have.

 Said another way, the three way (SCA concentration, freeze point and pH) designed for "low silicate coolant for diesels with added SCA will NOT, repeat NOT give meaningful information for OAT-based coolants.

 There are test strips for the OAT-based coolants, but they are not the "regular" coolant test strips.

Also, make sure that the test strips have not expired-- they have a "use by" date on them-- this is important.

For regular diesel coolant, these are the test strips I use-- problem, they come in a box of 12 and will expire before any one person can use them: http://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=24105  Have probably tested 200 cooling systems over the years.  Again, these are NOT for the OAT-based coolants.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #3
How do you tell which one you have?  When did the OAT-based coolants come into existence?  Is the life expectancy mostly a time thing? (Do they "expire" even if engine not run?)  What were the consequences for the engine with the messed up coolant?  (Engine would be ruined, or just a matter of replacing coolant?)  Thanks for your knowledge and willingness to share it!
1996 U270
Build #4846

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #4
Answer in SOLID LETTER CAPS

BRETT


How do you tell which one you have?  VERY DIFFICULT UNLESS ORIGINAL, AS COLOR IS NOT A GOOD WAY-- NO CONSISTENCY IN COLOR BETWEEN DIFFERENT MANUFACTURER. AND AS ALREADY MENTIONED, EACH COOLANT TYPE HAS UNIQUE SERVICE REQUIREMENTS-- PUTTING 12 UNITS OF SCA INTO AN OAT-BASED COOLANT IS BASICALLY A CONTAMINANT AND NEEDS TO BE CHANGED.  MANY TECHS DO NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE IN COOLANT CHEMISTRIES AND/OR JUST ASSUME THAT YOU HAVE "REGULAR DIESEL COOLANT".  MOST FORETRAVELS DO NOT HAVE THIS TYPE OF COOLANT.

When did the OAT-based coolants come into existence? I BELIEVE IN THE MID 1990'S.  I KNOW FORETRAVEL USED TEXACO ELC AND PUT A LABEL ON THE COOLING SYSTEM OVERFLOW RESERVOIR STATING THAT.

 Is the life expectancy mostly a time thing? (Do they "expire" even if engine not run?) NOT A CHEMIST, BUT SUSPECT THAT BOTH AGE AND MILES ARE INVOLVED, AS MOST GIVE SERVICE INTERVALS WITH BOTH MENTIONED (JUST LIKE OIL CHANGES)

 What were the consequences for the engine with the messed up coolant?  (Engine would be ruined, or just a matter of replacing coolant?)  Thanks for your knowledge and willingness to share it! IF A LINERED ENGINE (WHICH IS ALL ENGINES USED IN FORETRAVELS EXCEPT CUMMINS B, DETROIT DIESEL 8.2 AND CATERPILLAR 3116/3126, THE CYLINDER WALLS WILL ERODE AND ALLOW COOLANT INTO THE COMBUSTION CHAMBER-- AN EXPENSIVE OVERHAUL.


IF IN DOUBT ABOUT THE AGE OR CONDITION OF YOUR COOLANT, CHANGE IT!! LOT CHEAPER THAN RISKING AN ENGINE.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #5
Thanks Brett for the plain english explanation.  I really think Cummins has had a lot to do with the coolant confusion.  They have literally hundreds of pages of published info on coolant, much of it referring to expired products, obsolete part numbers, mixing terminology between ELC and OAT, no real recommendations.  I've found this confusion extending to the parts counters also. 

Wonder if non maintained coolants have a part in radiator failures? 
"Not so  long ago we were a nation of risk takers, riding five million pounds of  thrust straight into space."  Joe Gresh
Chuck Pearson
1996 U295
2018 Can Am X3 TurboRS

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #6


Wonder if non maintained coolants have a part in radiator failures? 

Absolutely,

In additions to deposits from old coolant, as it ages, pH gets lower (more acidic) and that harms the radiator as well as engine components.

Again, if you don't know the history, drain, flush and put in a proper coolant (one of the OAT-based coolants -- also referred to as ELC coolants) are my preference.  They are basically maintenance-free for 6 years.

Let me know if anyone needs the step by step for coolant change and I can post it.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #7
Again, if you don't know the history, drain, flush and put in a proper coolant (one of the OAT-based coolants -- also referred to as ELC coolants) are my preference.  They are basically maintenance-free for 6 years.

Let me know if anyone needs the step by step for coolant change and I can post it.

Lots of sediment (mostly sand like deposits) came out of my cooling system when I changed it out last year after not knowing when the previous owner had last done the maintenance (more than likely never).  The sediment continued to come out after 3-4 flushes which led me to pick up Fleetguard Restore and Restore Plus as recommended by a few of the people here.  I would recommend this also if you don't know when the coolant was last changed. 

Restore Plus-
􏰗 Safely Removes Rust, Corrosion, Scale, and Solder Bloom – Without Disassembling your Cooling System
􏰗 Mild Acid-Based Chelating Cleaner
􏰗 Approved by Cummins

Restore-
􏰗 Alkaline-Based Cleaner
􏰗 Most Effective Cooling System Oil/Fuel Contamination-Cleaning Agent on Market
􏰗 More Effective than Automotive Distributor Detergent Powders
􏰗 Safe for Use in Aluminum Radiators and Heaters
􏰗 Removes Silicate Gel
􏰗 Approved by Cummins

I'm not sure you can ever truly get everything out of the system but I eventually stopped flushing after about 15 times.  The water coming out still had a tinge of green (old coolant color) to it when in the buckets and still had a bit of the soapy residue from the two different Restores but I had taken a full day of flushing and there hadn't been any sediment for the last 7-8 flushes.
Robert
Build # 5304
1998 34' U270 Cummins 6CTA8.3

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #8
Please see the below response from Shell Lubricants-North America


Dear Bob, 

To confirm our phone conversation regarding the Shell Rotella ELC and the use of the extender.    For over the road applications, including RV's, the extender should be added at 300,000 miles.  There is no time requirement  for adding the extender.  Regardless of the number of years you drive the RV, if you have less than 300,000 miles, you  do not need to add the extender.  The 3 year limit  in our product data sheet refers only to off-road use, for instance in construction equipment.  What this means is the Rotella ELC is essentially a "fill for life" product if you never reach 300,000 miles.  We do recommend periodically checking the coolant freezing point using a refractometer.  If there is any chance for cross contamination with another type of coolant or water dilution,  we recommend using the Rotella  ELC contamination test kit to confirm the proper levels of the OAT additive are present.  This kit is available from Polaris Labs at 871-251-8313 and uses an extraction technique which takes about 5 minutes and actually confirms the OAT additive level.  Should the kit indicate contamination, the coolant system should be drained, flushed, and re-charged with fresh Rotella ELC following the instructions on the container.

 

Best Regards,

 

Larry Morrison

Technical Advisor  Shell Lubricants-North America

Tel: +01-800-237-8645  Options 4,1
Email: shelltechnical-us@Shell.com

Internet: http://www.epc.shell.com





The selected media item is not currently available.Bob & Faith Rozek
1997 U320 40'
Xtreme Remodel
2010 Scion XD

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #9
I know Caterpillar has the same "do nothing unless 300,000 miles" statement on their ELC. And, that extender is an ELC ONLY extender, not SCA.

Again, one real possibility for contamination of the coolant is if a coolant filter with SCA is added. 

And, while the Texaco reply did not have a recommended change interval I am not sure that means they endorse a 10+ year coolant life.  I know that Caterpillar recommends a 6 year change out for their ELC.  With an RV (long life/few miles) we are in uncharted waters on many components. 
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #10
We have been using Fleetguard ES Compleat ethylene glycol coolant for many years, CC2820 & CC2825 gallon part numbers. We carry several spare gallons as it is not readily available and we use it in Cummins and Isuzu.

Fleetguard coolants can be quite confusing. Check out
http://www.cumminsfiltration.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/LT15108.pdf

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #11
When we bought our coach, we bought it on consignment with 41,000 miles.  We had service records from 2010 but that was it.  We were not allowed to speak with the owner.  Right coach, wrong dealer.  The coach has texaco ELC stickers on the engine, generator and aquahot.  The maintenance records from 2010 show a radiator replacement and charging for only 3 gallons of Peak Extended Life coolant - so the original 1999 coolant was reused?  Earlier records show DCA additions by cummins.

I've read in numerous places that the Texaco ELC causes damage.  Supposedly the Shell stuff is perfectly fine, but the older Texaco labelled stuff was not formulated well for Cummins engines (attacks Silicone).

So I wasn't too sure what the history was but from my research I found out that Fleetguard strongly represents that their red ES Compleat OAT coolant is compatible with *everything*.  Every single other kind of coolant they insist will not contaminate or harm their coolant.  Since I am in a campground and I didn't want to get into flushing or anything else I chose that coolant so I didn't have to worry about any mixing.  I simply drained the system, replaced hoses and couplers, and refilled with new coolant.  The color of the old/new coolant looked almost identical and at least now I know I have good coolant.  I used like 18 gallons so I have a feeling I got most of the coolant out anyway.  The heater hoses drained out the entire rest of the system through a (not desired at that particular time) siphon effect.

I am an experienced mechanic and racer.  I've rebuilt engines, installed turbo/superchargers, tuned cars, etc.  I had *NO* idea about wet cylinder diesel coolant requirements.

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #12
Quick question for Brett---What coolant and filter do you recommend for a Caterpillar 3126b with new radiator and what filter?
Bill
Wild Bill Colston
1997 Class A Towing 2016 ford F150 XLT extended cab with Golf cart in 8 ft bed or a 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee
Retired Aircraft Maint Tech A&P Line Crew Chief
Pilots lisc--------Commercial and Multi Eng

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #13
Quick question for Brett---What coolant and filter do you recommend for a Caterpillar 3126b with new radiator and what filter?
Bill

Bill,

I like to keep it simple.  Simple being if your engine is ever in a dealership for work, I would want them to be able to put in a gallon of coolant AND make sure it was the correct stuff/compatible with what is in there.

With a Caterpillar, I would (actually do) use Caterpillar ELC (the Concentrate).

If I had a Cummins, would go with Fleetguard ES Complet OAT.

In either case, with an OAT based coolant the filter is ALWAYS a blank which means that it filters, but adds nothing.  Also called zero unit filters.

Coolant in actually fairly easy to change, though it is time consuming.  Said another way, an owner with just basic tool skills will likely do a better job than most techs because the techs can't take the time to flush and drain like you can.

Brett
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #14
For those of you who change your own coolant, how do you dispose of the old coolant and all the flush fluid?

Rich
Rich and Peggy Bowman
2002 U270 3610 WTFS, build #5939--"Freedom"
2022 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit 4xe
SMI AirForceOne brake system
PakCanoe 15

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #15
Rich,

Every single municipality's vehicle maintenance department has the same issue-- and services large numbers of vehicles.  Same for school district bus barns.  I would call them-- quite likely they will let you drop it off at their shop.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #16
Have received a couple of Private Messages asking for the step by step for changing coolant, so here goes (from an old article I wrote for the FMCA Magazine):

Cooling System 101
I just changed out my coolant and replaced all water hoses and belts.  Thought I would share the experience.

 Coolant needs to be changed per manufacturer's instructions (usually every 3 years for regular low silicate for diesel with added SCA coolant).  Additionally the SCA, pH and freeze point need to be checked on regular intervals using SCA test strips and SCA added as needed. The test strips are inexpensive and easy to use.  When either the time lapses (time starts when coolant is installed in cooling system, NOT when purchased) or testing reveals an out-of-line conditions like pH or freeze point, it is time to change it. You can avoid all the testing and SCA adding, and go to 6 year change intervals by going to an Extended Life Coolant and get better cooling system protection as well.  Whichever coolant you choose, most of the steps are the same. The job is reasonably time consuming TO DO RIGHT, but low-tech.

The new-generation OAT-based coolants such as Caterpillar ELC and Fleetguard ES Complet-OAT have a longer life-- generally in the 6 year range with no testing or adding of extenders unless over 300,000 miles have been driven.  A big problem with these excellent coolants-- lots of techs are not chemists-- they see a coolant filter and automatically run grab a filter-- often with units of SCA.  This is a good idea for the regular low silicate coolants, but are just a contaminant to OAT-based coolants.

OK, so you are going to change coolant.  First step is to determine your total cooling system capacity.  Your chassis maker or coach maker, not your engine manufacturer is the proper source.  Then buy enough coolant (concentrate, not pre-dilute) to make up 50% of that volume.  If going back with a coolant that requires additional SCA, purchase that as well.  Also purchase 1.5 times system capacity of distilled water for a final flush plus final fill (50%).  Also a good idea to change the engine thermostat and thermostat gasket as these are a wearing component and it involves very little more work while you are there. I know Caterpillar recommends thermostat (they call them regulators) every 3 years.

Turn dash heater to full hot for the rest of the procedure—fan off. With the engine cold or at least cool, drain coolant.  On some, there is a drain cock.  On others, pull the lower radiator hose. Two Rubbermade 10 gallon storage bin lined with black trash sacks so they don't get dirty work well.  At the end of the whole process, use a coffee can and funnel to pour old coolant into new coolant/water containers for recycling.  Our city maintenance shop recycles coolant for free.
 
Refill cooling system with tap water.  IMPORTANT: Be sure to remove any air lock from the thermostat housing.  Some systems have a hose set up for this—on ours I just loosen the coolant line to the air pump and bleed the air out. Allow engine to warm up (using the cruise control to select idle speed of 1,000-1,100 speeds this up). Run for about 10 minutes after regular temperature is reached. If the temp gauge does not rise as normal, you likely have an air block and need to bleed the thermostat housing.  Allow engine to cool 20-30 minutes and drain again.  Repeat until the effluent color is clear.
 
At this point, if this is the first coolant change on a 2-3 year old coach and you are not changing coolant brands/types, skip right to "Last rinse".  For older systems, contaminated systems or when switching types of coolant, add a Cooling System Cleaner. Follow the directions. Run, allow engine to cool, drain and again flush until effluent is clear.  The flushing is markedly sped up by pulling off the heater hose (usually 5/8" to ¾" lines) going to dash heater/motor-aid water heater, etc from the water pump.  Put a hose nozzle in the hose and let it run until it comes out clear.  Run the engine to temperature at least once with tap water.

If your hoses are over 5-6 years old, this is a good time to change them as well (before last rinse). Same for thermostat(s).
Last rinse is with distilled water.  At $.85/gal at Walmart, it is silly to skip this step and leave your system full of high-mineral content water (there will be several gallons of residual water that you can not easily remove).  Run engine for 10 minutes after getting to operating temperature.  Cool and drain.  Also drain and flush your coolant overflow container and refill with new coolant/distilled water.

Add the proper amount of Coolant CONCENTRATE (NOT PRE-DILUTE) to make 50% of cooling system capacity.  So for a cooling system with 20 gallons capacity, add 10 gallons of Coolant CONCENTRATE (plus 1/2 overflow container capacity). Top off with distilled water to achieve your 50/50 mixture—it doesn't matter if you only have to add 1 gallon or 10 of distilled water, you KNOW you have the proper 50/50 mixture.

This is also a good time to clean the OUTSIDE of the radiator/after-cooler whether you have rear or side radiator.  On rear radiator, most if the debris will be on the FRONT of the after-cooler (accessed from under the bed).  On side radiators, most debris is on the outside of the after-cooler (side of coach). If it is just dirt, a hose and regular nozzle is all you need.  If greasy or oily, use Joy liquid (dish washing detergent) in a spray bottle. Be SURE to rinse it off completely. You need to insure that the perimeter is as clean as the center.  Ya, I know it is easier to see the center, but the fan blades "sling" the dirt to the perimeter.

Check belts while you are in there.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #17
My son-in-law works for the EPA.  He says all engine coolants are not considered hazardous.  Pouring it down the drain is fine.  Just don't leave it on the ground where it can poison animals.
Regards,
Brett

'99 42' Foretravel Xtreme
'14 Brown Motorsports Stacker
'05 Chevy SSR
'02 BMW R1150R

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #18
Is there a difference in the coolant from the red to a green coolant. Both are Rotella ELC. The one today is green. Looked at the postings in this discussion and other sources of information mention the Rotella ELC as being red in color and coolants that are green is a different blend or type.

If they are different are they compatible?

I tried to sort out all the info here but still a little confusing from my side of the fence.



jack
Jack - Cynthia

Jan 2013
2003 U295 38'
3810 PBFS (6180)
2014 Jeep Sahara Unlimited

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #19
Jack,

I would suggest you contact Shell for an answer to that one (assuming your present coolant is not aged out or contaminated which would indicate a change may be a better idea).
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #20
We recently had the coolant changed at FOT. I asked them to change coolant and replace with the same type that was in the system. FOT replaced the coolant filter with a new filter charged with SCA. FOT replaced the coolant with O'Reilly's premix house brand. It is low silicate ethylene glycol. It is green. The previous replacement was four years ago at MOT right after we bought the coach.

In one of the seminars at a Motorcade Rally, James Triana recommended continuing to use the type of coolant that was originally in the system. He also suggested continuing to use the transmission fluid that was originally in the transmission. Those are my recollections of what I heard. I expect some newer products may be better than old products if they are properly installed and maintained. I have stayed with products similar to OEM. So far we've had no problems with exceptional failures, overheating, or unusual wear.
J D Stevens
1997 U295 CAI 36' Build #5085
2002 Subaru Outback
Motorcade 16869
Bellville, TX

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #21
Interesting.  Most Foretravels of that vintage and newer came with ELC/zero unit SCA filters.

BTW, I have never heard or seen anything from Caterpillar or Cummins suggesting going from low silicate to ELC was a problem.  Same for never hearing from Allison against changing from Dexron III to Transynd, particularly with a retarder.

If anyone has a reference for either from a manufacturer, would appreciate a link.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #22
This would be a great time for some product standardization, and straightening out the various acronyms for coolants.  My understand is that ELC (extended life coolants) can be either organic acid or glycol based, with the glycol coolant needing SCA additives periodically. 

Somewhere in the reams of Fleetguard tech sheets I read was a statement that the standard glycol coolant was the most efficient coolant.  Some day when I'm feeling the need for self abuse I'll see if I can locate it again. 

I'm running the "blue stuff" as Cummins parts calls it. 
"Not so  long ago we were a nation of risk takers, riding five million pounds of  thrust straight into space."  Joe Gresh
Chuck Pearson
1996 U295
2018 Can Am X3 TurboRS

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #23
Previously, I mentioned this and will again.
RMI 25..  8 ozs. per 5 Gals of coolant.

I've used the product for years and never had any cooling system issues.
Not cheap BTW and does a great job with everything connected with a cooling system (in anything.)  pc
S/W Houston 95" U320C SE/40' 
Build #4778  Cummins M11
Repairs & Covered RV Parking (BAO)
PPL is close..

Re: Coolants for Diesel Engines

Reply #24
Previously, I mentioned this and will again.
RMI 25..  8 ozs. per 5 Gals of coolant.

I've used the product for years and never had any cooling system issues.
Not cheap BTW and does a great job with everything connected with a cooling system (in anything.)  pc

What coolant do you add this to in your diesel? Said another way, what is the base coolant? And, how old is it?
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020