Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

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Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

May 21, 2014, 03:13:56 pm

In considering a number of used Foretravels from the mid- to late-1990s in our price range, I find several with floor plans and features that would seem to work for us.

In the units I have found, I see a big range in miles behind the Diesel engine, transmission, etc., from only about 50,000 miles to near 150,000 miles.

My question: Assuming proper maintenance records and a clean PDI by a competent Diesel mechanic, is there any substantial reason to prefer a unit with 50,000 miles over a unit with 100,000 miles or a unit with 150,000 miles? What if any advantage is there in a low miles coach?

I have no experience with Diesels, but I understand that they should last 500,000 miles or more, and I'm not sure if these mileage differences would be enough to matter. In a way, I'm tempted to think that higher mileage on a 15- to 20-year-old Foretravel is probably a good thing as it would indicate that it was used and did not sit neglected for a long period.

I want to buy a coach we can reasonably expect to use for 10 years or more, probably about 5,000 miles per year, with proper care on our part.

Thanks for helping a rookie!

Wayne

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #1 – May 21, 2014, 03:23:47 pm

Wayne,

My question: Assuming proper maintenance records and a clean PDI by a competent Diesel mechanic, is there any substantial reason to prefer a unit with 50,000 miles over a unit with 100,000 miles or a unit with 150,000 miles? What if any advantage is there in a low miles coach?

Not much. I would not worry about mileage so long as all the correct maintenance/service procedure have been done.

I want to buy a coach we can reasonably expect to use for 10 years or more, probably about 5,000 miles per year, with proper care on our part.

Buy whatever suites you, after reading the above.

Foretravels are very long lived. If looked after they will go on for a lot longer than you will own it. Just make sure that you have it inspected and buy from a reliable person/company.

Keith

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #2 – May 21, 2014, 03:33:26 pm

Quote from: Keith and Joyce – May 21, 2014, 03:23:47 pm

. . . Foretravels are very long lived. If looked after they will go on for a lot longer than you will own it. . .

Keith,

After doing a lot of reading, I came to that conclusion a while back. Reason number 1 why Foretravel is at the top of my list!

Thanks!

Wayne

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #3 – May 21, 2014, 03:36:38 pm

Wayne, Welcome and good question

You will receive many comments, all I have is our experience with 4 motor homes over 15 years, where 5+ are full time.

We purchased an 88 with 78K miles put 50K on it over several years, minor issues, determined if we used it more more would work, sure nuff as we used it more it took care of it. We would still have it but needed a bigger basement only because we full-time.

The newer one is a 94 6+" wider with 78K miles. Look here and on-line they LAST and are remarkably reliable. There is a 36' 95 on this forum well kept.
Just make sure you have inspection.
Have Fun, look at a few, take your time.

As far as miles, little advantages lower, but if you can find one great-only concern is sitting doesn't help anything in the coach. The drive train should still be strong.
500K miles will out last me

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #4 – May 21, 2014, 03:57:16 pm

I would guess that on average we use our MH's about 15 to 20 K miles a year. At that rate buying a coach with 50 K on it would leave you 10 years to add a hundred thousand. I know of only one MH in my 25 years of MHing that had 300 K on it, a Newell with a CAT V8. I don't think milage means much EXCEPT a ten year old with 25 K on would concern me. How many days has it spent traveling against how many days in a shop for repairs.
Gary B

Yes, Mine has 170 K on it and is for sale.

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #5 – May 21, 2014, 06:14:13 pm

I am a retired farmer although I am not very good at retirement. I have a number of trucks and tractors that have cummins engines. Milage on a cummins engine would not be of much concern to me. Most of my trucks have over 500,000 miles with one red top cummins having 1.3 million miles.

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #6 – May 22, 2014, 08:44:06 am

Beware of an older motorhome with low mileage. It means it has like spent waaaaaay too much time sitting, and in general that's not at all good for a vehicle.

Our motorhome had over 150,000 miles on it when we purchased it in November 2012, and we put around 8,000 miles on it in the first year with no serious mechanical issues. With normal maintenance the engine and drivetrain will likely be good for at least another 750,000 miles before major overhaul. Unfortunately, we suspect we will require major overhaul before our Foretravel does!

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #7 – May 22, 2014, 03:25:04 pm

I am at 158K on this one and hope to go to 500K at least.

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #8 – May 22, 2014, 06:48:47 pm

Quote from: D.J. Osborn – May 22, 2014, 08:44:06 am

Beware of an older motorhome with low mileage. It means it has like spent waaaaaay too much time sitting, and in general that's not at all good for a vehicle. . .

Yes, that I understand. I was mainly looking for confirmation of my thought that 150,000 or so miles on a 15 or 20 year old Foretravel should largely be a non-issue for the engine and running gear.

Thanks to everyone for the input!

Wayne

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #9 – May 22, 2014, 06:52:49 pm

Quote from: Mountain Couple – May 22, 2014, 06:48:47 pm

Yes, that I understand. I was mainly looking for confirmation of my thought that 150,000 or so miles on a 15 or 20 year old Foretravel should largely be a non-issue for the engine and running gear.

Thanks to everyone for the input!

Wayne

Wayne,

The big IF is "IF properly maintained".

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #10 – May 22, 2014, 09:03:11 pm

Like Brett said "well maintained". That means providing records. But, a low mileage coach if properly exercised can be quite excellent. Low miles means nothing if you travel to a destination and stay there for a long time as fultimers usually do. In this case the coach works will be well used but the chassis will not. Again, if properly exercised, even the chassis, engine, etc. could he in great shape. A good inspection will reveal all these tid bits.

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #11 – May 22, 2014, 09:31:04 pm

Shop said 800k to 1.2 million miles on an m11. Cam bearings are the indicator.

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #12 – May 22, 2014, 09:53:43 pm

Since you are not familiar with diesels (I wasn't either but am learning quickly), you really need to know what the service intervals are for the motorhomes you are looking at to truly know if the maintenance was done. If the prior owner/s did not do the required maintenance, it can get expensive pretty quick trying to catch up on everything, even more so if you are paying someone else to do all the work.

One of the numbers that I've seen bandied around these forums is to make sure you have about $10,000 dollars after purchase to cover maintenance and repairs/upgrades. This seems to be a pretty good number from my experience unless the prior owner has meticulous records of everything. Even then, you are buying a 15 year old piece of equipment, things break, and rubber parts naturally decay over time. Hopefully you are able to buy something in which the prior owner has already fixed everything and stayed up to date with maintenance.

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #13 – May 23, 2014, 11:13:03 am

Catfishbob,
Would love to have you post a Cummins Bulletin that tells of the Cam Bearing issue at 800,000 miles.

Have been in touch with Cummins, they have no knowledge of the cam bearings being an issue.

I enjoy reading some of your statements, however some about engines surely produce the giggle factor.

Fully understand your being a sales type, most are clueless on mechanical issues. Me, am just a grease monkey with many (50+) years of factory schooling, that allows me an advantage to this horse hockey nonsense.

As I mentioned, at 500,000 miles, rollin new rod & main bearings, at 1million miles do the inframe overhaul (that does not include cam bearings) then on making money for the owner. Sone may need to add the block stiffner (Girdle) at the 1 million mark if the engine is under heavy stress / loading a high % of time. Had obe installed on my ISM before I realized it only effected the million + mile engines, RV is not heavy use.

So again, please produce a Cummins Bulletin on cam bearings on the M11 series.
The Cummins shops would love to read it.
Thank you.
Dave M

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #14 – May 23, 2014, 02:24:26 pm

Quote from: Dave M – May 23, 2014, 11:13:03 am

Catfishbob,
Would love to have you post a Cummins Bulletin that tells of the Cam Bearing issue at 800,000 miles.

Have been in touch with Cummins, they have no knowledge of the cam bearings being an issue.

I enjoy reading some of your statements, however some about engines surely produce the giggle factor.

Fully understand your being a sales type, most are clueless on mechanical issues. Me, am just a grease monkey with many (50+) years of factory schooling, that allows me an advantage to this horse hockey nonsense.

As I mentioned, at 500,000 miles, rollin new rod & main bearings, at 1million miles do the inframe overhaul (that does not include cam bearings) then on making money for the owner. Sone may need to add the block stiffner (Girdle) at the 1 million mark if the engine is under heavy stress / loading a high % of time. Had obe installed on my ISM before I realized it only effected the million + mile engines, RV is not heavy use.

So again, please produce a Cummins Bulletin on cam bearings on the M11 series.
The Cummins shops would love to read it.
Thank you.
Dave M

You might want to start here Dave, looks like cam bearings might be a problem on the M11:

AERA/AERSCO
AERA Technical Services Department
500 Coventry Lane, Suite 180 Crystal Lake IL 60014
Phone 888/324-2372 Fax 888/329-2372
TECHNICAL BULLETIN Model: L10
Liter: 10.0L
V I N:
Year: 85-90
December 2003
Mfg: CUMMINS
TB 2125
Cam Bearing Bore Repair For
Cummins 1985-2003 L10 & M11 Engines
The AERA Technical Committee offers the following information on an alternative
cam bearing bore repair for Cummins L10 & M11 engines. The recent availability
of an oversize outside diameter cam bearing has been announced. This new
bearing will allow a single repair operation to many engine blocks, which will allow
them to be put back into service.
These engines have been prone to engine failure related to cam bearing movement
during engine operation. The cam bores generally were enlarged to a degree that
sleeve installation in the affected bore was required. The standard cam bearing
was then pressed back into the bore, in effect putting a sleeve inside a sleeve. In
many instances, that process did not make a long lasting repair as many engines
suffered subsequent failures. This new .170" (4.3 mm) wall thickness bearing
combines both processes into one and should allow a reliable repair for many
otherwise discarded blocks.
This bearing combines the thickness of the Cummins supplied repair sleeve Part
#3824894 and standard cam bearing Part # 3820566 into one component. This
bearing has almost twice as much wall thickness as the standard cam bearing.
To install this bearing, first determine a .0020-.0025" interference fit before align
boring the camshaft housing bore. This bushing Part # MCB7025 is currently
available from one aftermarket supplier. Please contact AERA Technical Services
at 1/888-324-2372 for an update on aftermarket suppliers of this type bearing.
The AERA Technical Committee
Page 1 of 2
Reference:

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #15 – May 23, 2014, 06:00:05 pm

I would not consider a coach that has not been driven at least 5000 miles a year, with proof that oil, filter and coolant, etc. were done annually and the coach was exercised monthly. I have found very few owners willing to change oil and filter on the basis of time not mileage. So the driveline components just sit and rust during extended storage.

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #16 – May 23, 2014, 06:16:20 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – May 22, 2014, 06:52:49 pm

Wayne,

The big IF is "IF properly maintained".

Yes, Brett, I understand. I will purchase no motorhome without full and proper maintenance records. And a careful inspection by a qualified diesel mechanic.

Not to hijack my own thread, but . . . In terms of maintenance records, does this suggest that I should be looking for units for sale by private sellers, or will dealers often make records from the previous owner available? In a perfect world, I would find a Foretravel for sale by the original owner, it would have been stored inside, carefully maintained, and include all maintenance records from the time of purchase. I get the impression that this is more likely with Foretravel than with most other brands.

And, yes, I will reserve $10,000 to $15,000 for repairs or updates soon after purchase.

Thanks everyone!

Wayne

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #17 – May 23, 2014, 06:20:43 pm

Quote from: amos.harrison – May 23, 2014, 06:00:05 pm

I would not consider a coach that has not been driven at least 5000 miles a year, with proof that oil, filter and coolant, etc. were done annually and the coach was exercised monthly. I have found very few owners willing to change oil and filter on the basis of time not mileage. So the driveline components just sit and rust during extended storage.

I was thinking 3000 miles per year minimum, but I'll go with your number. 5000 per year it is! Thanks!

Wayne

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #18 – May 23, 2014, 06:22:27 pm

Quote from: Mountain Couple – May 23, 2014, 06:16:20 pm

Yes, Brett, I understand. I will purchase no motorhome without full and proper maintenance records. And a careful inspection by a qualified diesel mechanic.

Not to hijack my own thread, but . . . In terms of maintenance records, does this suggest that I should be looking for units for sale by private sellers, or will dealers often make records from the previous owner available? In a perfect world, I would find a Foretravel for sale by the original owner, it would have been stored inside, carefully maintained, and include all maintenance records from the time of purchase. I get the impression that this is more likely with Foretravel than with most other brands.

And, yes, I will reserve $10,000 to $15,000 for repairs or updates soon after purchase.

Thanks everyone!

Wayne

In an ideal world, yes you will get complete maintenance records. In the real world, that is pretty unlikely. I know-- I do a LOT of mechanical inspections.

So real world is that you will probably get some records (perhaps written, perhaps just dates on filters) and those along with a complete mechanical inspection will go a long way toward giving you a good window into the condition of the coach. Not a guarantee, but a pretty good indication.

And, if no maintenance records, but a clean bill of health insures that you have a long list of "better change all the fluids now, since we don't know their history". Again, not that unusual.

Bottom line, yes I would recommend paying more for one with complete records, but would not rule out one with sketchy ones.

Be aware that if an owner has one facility do their service work, they can have the service facility release the history to you.

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #19 – May 23, 2014, 06:31:11 pm

Thanks, Brett.

One thing I've noticed -- On several occasions, I've found statements (usually from dealers) stating that all fluids have been changed. A couple of thoughts, from my neophyte brain:

1) It seems to me an inspection of the oil (and perhaps other fluids) would give an indication of the condition of the engine. Is the dealer maybe trying to hide something? And,

2) I would prefer to change all fluids myself after purchase, so that I know for sure it was done and that quality fluids were used.

Am I being overly cautious?

Wayne

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #20 – May 23, 2014, 07:06:06 pm

You can make purchase conditional on analyses of engine oil, trans oil, diff'l oil and coolant, even same on gen.

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #21 – May 23, 2014, 07:18:20 pm

Wayne,

Smart to do it yourself. Another member paid to have all fluids changed including wheel bearings but found out some of the fluids were not changed. Was charged for them. Will let him speak about it if he cares to.

Pierce

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #22 – May 23, 2014, 07:29:10 pm

Quote from: Mountain Couple – May 23, 2014, 06:31:11 pm

Thanks, Brett.

One thing I've noticed -- On several occasions, I've found statements (usually from dealers) stating that all fluids have been changed. A couple of thoughts, from my neophyte brain:

1) It seems to me an inspection of the oil (and perhaps other fluids) would give an indication of the condition of the engine. Is the dealer maybe trying to hide something? And,

2) I would prefer to change all fluids myself after purchase, so that I know for sure it was done and that quality fluids were used.

Am I being overly cautious?

Wayne

Actually, in most cases, no, they are not doing extra service work to hide anything-- I am sure there are exceptions.

In general, some quality dealers do not ASSUME that service work is up to date and pay service department to change all fluids.

Part of a quality inspection is to discuss with the buyer what things they are able and willing to do themselves and what they should pay a dealer to do. Also, whether something can be done within the next year or needs to be done before driving. Last month, inspected a coach with OAT-based coolant (a good thing), but someone had installed a coolant filter with SCA instead of a filter BLANK. So the engine coolant was contaminated. That needed to be addressed before driving back cross country to the buyers home.

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #23 – May 23, 2014, 07:33:56 pm

I know in each of my coaches I have a book and record every gallon of fuel and every repair done and where and when and what and all the routine maintenance
too. THe next owner of my 2000 did not want it so I kept it. Oh well there loss but they got a well maintained unit. I saw it was sold again a year later so I guess rving was not his thing.

Re: Miles on Diesel engine and running gear

Reply #24 – May 23, 2014, 07:50:10 pm

I keep a record and all paperwork regarding anything that is done to our coach. Did not have good service records when I purchased the coach. But whoever gets it after we are done will have all our service records. I believe it gives the buyer a "warm fuzzy" feeling to see that the unit was serviced properly. And then some folks could care less I suppose.

Roland

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