Talk me down from here . . .

Topic: Talk me down from here . . . (Read 1574 times) previous topic - next topic

Talk me down from here . . .

June 05, 2014, 12:04:53 pm

Looking to buy our first coach. Foretravel has been high on our list.

In considering all the factors involved in deciding on a make and model, the one feature that concerns me more than any other about Foretravel is the 10,000 watt diesel generator. My fear is that it is a poor match for our lifestyle and intended use of the coach. I wonder whether a coach with a smaller LP generator might not work better for us.

We have rarely camped in air conditioning weather. When we have, it has always been with hookups (or at high elevation where A/C wasn't needed anyway). I don't see that changing.

We boondock a lot in cool/cold weather and I need a generator to recharge batteries. But I expect battery charging would be a very light load for a 10,000 watt generator.

I don't mind exercising a generator regularly to keep it in good condition, but I worry that being almost always used for a very light load while camping would not be good for a diesel generator.

As much as I like the concept of Foretravel, I'm now leaning toward SOB due to concerns over the big diesel generator. Are my concerns unfounded?

Wayne

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #1 – June 05, 2014, 12:36:36 pm

Well. Overkill is better than underkill. I think it is nice to never have to worry, even if trapped in a traffic backup overnight. Hit the button and everything you need will be available for such unplanned events. I haven't added a ton of hours to my 10k generator, but it sips fuel and happily gives me whatever I ask for.

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #2 – June 05, 2014, 12:41:23 pm

Morning Wayne, How about using a small (2k,3k Honda gen) as a portable setup I have a 8k powertech diesel but consider it loud and obnoxious. I see the only issue with the Honda as being spare fuel at least in a diesel coach. I have considered removing the gen set from the front and replacing it with a Honda and maybe more battery capacity as I plan on going more solar in the future Im like you and don't like to camp in the blazing heat were ac is needed. It is amazing how quite the small Hondas are and how little fuel they sip. Just a thought.
Bill

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #3 – June 05, 2014, 12:48:52 pm

I'm not too much concerned about the cost of fuel for running a generator for charging batteries. And, yes, I have a small portable Yamaha that I could use for that.

My fear is that I would ruin a good 10,000 watt diesel generator by virtually never running it above 20 or 25% capacity.

Are my fears unfounded?

Wayne

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #4 – June 05, 2014, 12:53:55 pm

Consider the diesel gen is a safety device. .44 gallons an hour fuel consumption.

150-190 gallons fuel

Possible to run the gen after an alternator failure and the boost switch on to energize the engine battery powered devices.

Max legal lp capacity is much lower and at a gallon an hour you won't make it very long.

60 hours in the old Foretravels with lp gens versus 300-400 hours.

Air cooled lp gens are noisy.

Plus the 80 plus amps means a lot of reserve.

Could plug another coach into mine if the wiring was setup to do so. Wire in a 50 amp plug

No lp. No sob

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #5 – June 05, 2014, 01:13:52 pm

Not all models of Foretravels have the 10Kw, check specs on:

Foretravel Specifications, Floor Plans, Photos & Brochures by Year

I see the U270's from 2000 back have the smaller 8Kw's.
Plus the older U225, and 240 models, 1995 and older have propane generators, due to the smaller shorter height bays.

As said, the power is nice when you need it, as you never always know what might happen. We got caught in Kansas City, in Jan. 10 degrees, blowing snowing gusts to 30 mph, on the Freightliner lot when they did not get the coach into scheduled repair during the day we had left it. That evening we fired up the generator, 3 ceramic space heaters, the 120v. hot water heater, the 2 wet bay cube heaters, and the electric blanket. After baking dinner and a movie, we had a nice warm night, and hot shower before we drove into the service bay at 6:45 AM.

I would not buy any SOB to get a smaller generator that I would use as little as we have used a generator in the last 3 years. The suggestion of buying a small Honda for battery charging make really good sense. Better yet is to plan to bake something when you are battery charging, an idea that we stole from Michelle.

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #6 – June 05, 2014, 01:25:32 pm

I think your question is: "I worry that being almost always used for a very light load while camping would not be good for a diesel generator."

I do not know what load level or how much to run to allow the generator to be fully exercised. So I do not have an answer to your question. Maybe some knowledgeable fofum member can chime in on this.

We have a 10kw unit and every month or so we turn on the generator and the a/c units, unplugged from shore power, to exercise the gen set.

I agree with others that the 10kw power is great to have when needed.

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #7 – June 05, 2014, 01:30:43 pm

One thing you have not considered is the loss of resale value of a unit without the correct sized generator. Could cause a prospective buyer to walk away.

Diesel is always better than propane and even gasoline. Better to have a proper sized unit for all needs as you never know if things will change.

You can simply turn on a few things to load up the unit when exercising it. That's what we do.

Keith

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #8 – June 05, 2014, 01:31:45 pm

The weather guessers are talking about some severe storms coming through here tonight. I'm thinking that I may just unplug from the house and fire up the genny for the night. We wanted a diesel generator even though we don't plan to do a lot of boondocking. I do run the generator when going down the road so that the roof a/c units can keep the coach cool and the refrigerator cold.

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #9 – June 05, 2014, 01:34:31 pm

Quote from: Carol & Scott – June 05, 2014, 01:25:32 pm

I think your question is: "I worry that being almost always used for a very light load while camping would not be good for a diesel generator."

. . .

Bingo!

I have never owned anything with a diesel engine. I have been told that running a diesel at very low load nearly all the time it is run is very bad for the engine. I do not want to ruin a good diesel engine by running it at very low load all the time.

Will running a diesel generator at 20% capacity or less, 95% of the time it is running, ruin the engine? Or did I get some bad information?

That's my question.

Wayne

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #10 – June 05, 2014, 01:58:01 pm

For the answer to your question call the manufacturer. If it is a Powertech, call Powertech. If it is a Kohler, call Kohler. If it is an Onan, call Onan. If it is some of other brand, call SOB.

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #11 – June 05, 2014, 02:18:12 pm

FWIW,
I would recommend that you not get different fuels for coach and generator. It is a PIA in my opinion to have to run someone down at a truck stop for propane. If I had a gas motorhome, I would want a gas generator and for the diesel motorhome a diesel generator. I had a SOB with a propane generator that we had to fill up on a regular basis as I live in Texas and we need to run the generator for the AC in the summer. Every stop for refueling took an extra 30 minutes or so (if they had propane and not that many do, which also is a PIA). Whereas with the diesel genset and engine fuel, it will have a lot of reserve for fuel (if I were to need to run the genset for days) if I were parked. Also one stop filling saves time and hassle. I like the diesel genset with the cummins engine. Best!

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #12 – June 05, 2014, 05:02:27 pm

Here is an example of running a light load; 4cyl diesel (85 hp) idling 24 hours a day between 800 and 900 rpm. Rpm increased to 1400 every other day under full load. Sometimes left for days idling.

The engine is in a fishing vessel. A flash freezer was kept going, 9hp to start and about 3 hp when keeping temperature. This operation went on for over 15 years.

People said the engine would be ruined at the outset. The engine has had the valves adjusted once, a front seal, and a repaired injection pump due to bad fuel. The engine has 28,000 hours on it and is still running strong. For the last 4 years without a freezer I have run it 2300 RPM between sets all day long. And then it sits for 7 months!
Oh, and if one looks really hard, there is a tinge of smoke at full throttle. Good ole throw away suzzi 4bd1

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #13 – June 05, 2014, 06:23:02 pm

You will be fine. You can charge your batteries and if you have aquahot you can use it on electric if your ignitor goes out in the cold too. You can also put the fridge on electric so it will have a load. I use mine less in the winter but more in the summer. I will say I go year round and I put the generator on at night sometime when it is really cold out. The batteries do not like it and it keeps the fuel warm too. Now the line to the engine is a different story but I have been out in below zeros and single digits many times. I have a 12.5 and it has over 3000 hours. Do not worry about the generator. Just run it once a month for a bit and you will have a great unit that will start on demand.

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #14 – June 05, 2014, 06:27:16 pm

I've done a little digging myself via Google . . .

What I've heard is that running a diesel under a very light load can lead to a situation where the engine dies not reach its intended operating temperature and the fuel is not fully burned. The result is excess carbon buildup on all the vital parts, injectors, valves, pistons, rings. Bad things happen. I guess the vernacular term for this is "wet-stacking," because unburned fuel comes out the exhaust. It seems like this is a particular problem with diesel generators run at light loads.

Google also tells me that it is less likely in electronically-controlled diesels and in engines with a cooling system (which helps to keep the operating temp up a bit). I would hope that the diesel generators in Foretravels would possess these traits.

Says diesel engines like to be run at 75% of their intended load and that below this, there is risk of wet stacking. However, for a diesel generator, this does not translate into 75% of the generator capacity. Confusing.

Can someone educate me? How realistic a problem is this for a diesel generator in a Foretravel of 1997 to 2000 vintage? (Due to my requirements and budget, these are probably the model years I'm looking at.) How often would I have to give it a bigger load to prevent this problem? Other guidance?

Thanks!

Wayne

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #15 – June 05, 2014, 06:32:05 pm

10K is not too much. If you are worried about low loads then just run the ac or heat pump or heat strips, the AquaHot 110v heater, battery chargers, engine block heater, refrigerator, ice maker, microwave, TVs, Stereos and all of the other stuff that runs on 110v.

Battery charging alone can be a pretty substantial load. If I am just running the Genset for its monthly exercise I add loads to get the total load up.

A substantial diesel generator is a good reason to buy a Foretravel.

Roger

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #16 – June 05, 2014, 06:40:53 pm

You can also run stuff in your stick and brick house if you get hit with a storm.

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #17 – June 05, 2014, 07:06:30 pm

I don't recall ever hearing of someone who had problems with their generator because they ran it with too little load. I'll venture to say many people, if not most, use their coach the way you are planning to. If there was a problem, you would find many threads on the subject in this forum and others.

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #18 – June 05, 2014, 07:29:24 pm

You need to talk to Dave M. he will educate you on generators, he shoots straight from the hip.

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #19 – June 05, 2014, 07:44:41 pm

Forrest (the 1997 Foretravel) does not get a lot of miles put on it so we have to exercise it every 30 days including the genset (8.0 KW Powertech with Isuzu diesel). During the 30 mile exercise run the genset is running with the roof A/C's running and as many appliances on as practicable. You can do the same just for exercise purposes. If I had the choice it would be a diesel operated genset over anyother type. Our experience with this PT unit has been excellent.

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #20 – June 05, 2014, 08:34:29 pm

Wayne,

Someone has been giving you bad information.

The diesel generators Foretravel uses are 1800 rpm units. (you need 3600, 1800 or 1200 rpm to have 60Hz) After starting, they come up to their rated rpm and will warm to operating temperature quickly unless someone has removed the thermostat. 1800 rpm takes a fair amount of energy to overcome the internal friction so loading up or "wet stacking" is not an issue. Wet stacking was seen in sport fishermen with Detroit 2 cycle diesels. Once they got to their destination, they would troll at low speed and rpm so wet stacking was a possibility.

Propane generators do have certain advantages like quick starting at high altitudes in super cold weather but it's mostly a down side with them. The propane fuel they use has MUCH less energy (less than 90K btu/gallon, diesel is over 130K btu/gal) so they use much more fuel to do the same amount of work. If not vented properly, they can produce dangerous amounts of CO (carbon monoxide) while it would be hard to kill yourself with the amount of CO a diesel produces. They also don't last as long as a diesel generator and require more maintenance. A motorhome with a propane generator is not worth as much and has a more limited resale market. Having to consider fueling with diesel and propane both is a pain. Our propane tank lasts forever for cooking, fridge and the furnace.

We don't use ours much but do start it every week or so. It has about 1000 trouble free hours on it and I expect thousands of hours more. Exhaust pipe is always dry.

Pierce

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #21 – June 05, 2014, 08:44:34 pm

Quote from: Peter & Beth – June 05, 2014, 07:44:41 pm

Forrest (the 1997 Foretravel) does not get a lot of miles put on it so we have to exercise it every 30 days including the genset (8.0 KW Powertech with Isuzu diesel). During the 30 mile exercise run the genset is running with the roof A/C's running and as many appliances on as practicable. You can do the same just for exercise purposes. If I had the choice it would be a diesel operated genset over anyother type. Our experience with this PT unit has been excellent.

My Foretravel mechanic mentioned replacing 7 sets of glow plugs for 7 owners that never preheated their gen motor. 20 years.

Never touched the diesel gens engines in the coach.

Motorhomes may well be a problem for youI think.

I held an accountants hand once as he was writing his comparison list on the coach types and finally told him that the diesel was a want.

If every single long term owner here has never had any issues with their variously used units I would think that I am not likely to use it so far different as to run into some kind of issue.

Hard to damage the entire coach in use. Walls do not fall off. Systems require maintenance always but the big parts are a million mile stuff....

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #22 – June 05, 2014, 09:16:16 pm

It's interesting, I know some folks that are looking for a motorhome and they refuse to consider a DP because they smell and believe that mechanics are hard to come by. Would rather have a Ford V10 as it can be serviced just about anywhere.

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #23 – June 05, 2014, 09:25:57 pm

I read that same thing on RV.net too. I laughed a bunch over it.

Re: Talk me down from here . . .

Reply #24 – June 05, 2014, 09:56:08 pm

I've had LP and diesel gensets and have been happy with both. I can tell you there are very few choices for a diesel pusher with an LP genset - The early Safari models (like my 1997) are equipped that way not sure about others aside from some class B/C units.

I have driven but not owned any gas class A units (gas engine and genset) and did not care for the engine noise and handling. A diesel pusher is hard to beat. The genset is really a secondary consideration - get the coach you want first. I also used a Honda 2000 for battery charging (and microwave) when I full-timed in a fifth wheel and it was hard to beat for low noise and economical operation. That said, the Honda now resides at my daughter's place as a backup generator as it just was not worth the space to carry a second generator in any of the motorhomes we have owned.

Affiliate Notice