Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

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Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

June 26, 2014, 07:00:36 pm

We were dry camping at the coast, wanted to try using the Honda 2000 to keep the batteries charged. Used adapters to connect the 50amp cord to the 20 amp receptacle on the Honda. Started the Honda, checked the power line monitor in the coach, both legs showed 70v. Made me nervous so shut the Honda down, used the Powertech.

After we got home, hooked the Honda up again, but shut down everything in the coach first. Showed 68v on both legs of the monitor. Used a dvm to check voltage at the outlet in the kitchen. Got 122v, but powerline monitor still showed 68 to 69v. What am I doing wrong?

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #1 – June 26, 2014, 07:33:52 pm

Quote from: morninghill – June 26, 2014, 07:00:36 pm

wanted to try using the Honda 2000 to keep the batteries charged. Used adapters to connect the 50amp cord to the 20 amp receptacle on the Honda. Started the Honda, checked the power line monitor in the coach, both legs showed 70v. Made me nervous so shut the Honda down

Have you confirmed the adapters are wired correctly? What are the power line monitor readings if you plug into a household outlet using the same adapter combo?

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #2 – June 26, 2014, 08:08:44 pm

Right now the coach is plugged in with the same 50/30 and 30/20 adapters but also through a 20 amp extension cord to the 20 amp shop outlet. Don't think the adapters are the problem. Monitor shows 120 and 122.
Maybe the 20 amp circuit vs the 12 amp the Honda can produce?

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #3 – June 26, 2014, 08:42:59 pm

Quote from: morninghill – June 26, 2014, 08:08:44 pm

Right now the coach is plugged in with the same 50/30 and 30/20 adapters but also through a 20 amp extension cord to the 20 amp shop outlet. Don't think the adapters are the problem. Monitor shows 120 and 122.
Maybe the 20 amp circuit vs the 12 amp the Honda can produce?

If you have a Prosine 2500 there's a setting on it for AC Service rating to limit is maximum current draw - could be the 12 amp of the Honda being overwhelmed by the charging demands of the Prosine

If DIP switches,

PS 2.5
Switch 3 Switch 4 AC service rating Maximum DC Charging Amps
*UP *UP 10A 8A Default
DOWN UP 15A 12A
UP DOWN 20A 16A
DOWN DOWN 30A 24A

So if the Honda can output 12Amps AC, you need to set switch 3 and 4 both UP to limit charging to 8 amps.

If you have the ACS panel it will override the DIP switches. I'll have to look to see what that menu selection looks like to see if there's something you need to set.

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #4 – June 26, 2014, 09:34:10 pm

Michelle, thanks for the suggestion. The Xantrex died, replaced it with a Magnum 2812. Believe I can set it to 10 amps, or 5 amps limit. Will try tomorrow.

Not sure this will help, the Honda shuts down if something tries to draw more than it can handle.

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #5 – June 27, 2014, 05:49:43 am

The output of the Honda has sixty volts on the hot and sixty volts on the neutral legs, not 120 on the hot leg as you would expect.

Roland

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #6 – June 27, 2014, 09:18:59 am

Roland - thanks for the insight. Sounds like that is probably the reason for the readings.

I know very little about electrical circuits. Can I assume I can use the Honda with no fear of damaging anything due to low voltage? Just ignore the power line monitor when using the Honda?

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #7 – June 27, 2014, 12:28:13 pm

I found this explanation:

You won't get the correct reading with one of 3-light polarity receptacle testers.

The Honda EU generators do not have a neutral wire. Each hot leg measure about 62 volts to ground. This is correct and normal for the Honda generators and certain other generators.

The real purpose of the neutral is to provide a simple way to supply homes with both 120 and 240 volt power.

In household 120 volt wiring, and many generators, the one hot leg measures about 120 volts to both the ground and the neutral wire, and the neutral to ground is zero volts.

You cannot bond the neutral to ground on a Honda and similar generators because there is no neutral. You have hot L1, hot L2, and ground. L1 and L2 are about 62 volts to ground and about 124 volts across the two.

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #8 – June 27, 2014, 02:34:57 pm

That is fascinating, Barry, and I had no idea that the small generators like the Honda worked like that.

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #9 – June 28, 2014, 07:25:11 am

Quote from: morninghill – June 27, 2014, 09:18:59 am

Roland - thanks for the insight. Sounds like that is probably the reason for the readings.

I know very little about electrical circuits. Can I assume I can use the Honda with no fear of damaging anything due to low voltage? Just ignore the power line monitor when using the Honda?

Mike, yes you can use your Honda with no fear. Barry ha explained the Honda output in his post, and yes when you see the voltage for the first time it makes one a bit nervous. As I said in my previous post, I have been using a Honda genre raptor for quite a few years with no issues.

Roland

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #10 – June 28, 2014, 08:53:16 am

Is there economy in using adifferent generator?

My dad uses a small one when he boondocks, course he has a 5500watt gas.

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #11 – June 28, 2014, 09:54:46 am

Quote from: fouroureye – June 28, 2014, 08:53:16 am

Is there economy in using adifferent generator?

Probably save about $100 in a month of boondocking. You give up storage space for the Honda and the gasoline. The Honda is little, if any, quieter than the 10kw Powertech in a quiet box. You have to secure the Honda and give it some weather protection, have to maintain another small engine.

Now that I've written this out, thinking about putting the Honda on Craigslist. It worked well when we used a truck camper with no on board gen, but doesn't seem worth it for the way we travel now.

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #12 – June 28, 2014, 09:58:38 am

We use our Honda to supplement our solar when dry camping. I don't see the practicality of using 7 KW when 2KW suffices. Our Honda will power the convection oven in our coach and I use it when I am baking bread. The only "pain" is having to lug a 5 gallon gas container.

Roland

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #13 – June 28, 2014, 10:52:28 am

We run the living room air conditioner when driving in hot weather so kinda need the big gennerator for that. Dash air doesn't work that well even after Meccadoches' multiple attempts. If we run multiple appliances, toaster oven, coffee pot etc. while boondocking we need the big generator.

Roland

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #14 – June 28, 2014, 08:19:35 pm

Here is what I do when there is not enough power to plug into or it is too low a voltage as you can find in the NE of this country. It seems that many of the older campgrounds do not have the power for todays units and some far north ones only have 20 amps and weak breakers too. I just carry a battery charger and plug that in. It is smaller then the Honda and it will plug into a standard 15 amp circuit and it will keep the batteries charged up.

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #15 – June 28, 2014, 08:35:28 pm

JohnS, not a bad idea

Roland, was reading about a Zephyr bus conversion. Since it was an passenger bus, it was designed with a heavy duty 250amp alternator that ran the AC. It was/is about 10" in diameter.

Wonder what hp it would take to run it Vs the genny, and if it would fit?

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #16 – June 28, 2014, 10:31:14 pm

Barry, you said:
"You cannot bond the neutral to ground on a Honda and similar generators there is no neutral. You have hot L1, hot L2, and ground. L1 and L2 are about 62 volts to ground and about 124 volts across the two."

So, when you plug a 15 amp power cord into a Honda EU generator do you get 124VAC between the neutral and the hot? Then, how can there ever be 62 volts on a power monitor which measures AC voltage between neutral and hot on one leg, either RED hot or BLACK hot? (or does it measure voltage between hot and ground?). I suspect that the 50amp/30amp adaptor is at fault.

I have rewired my main and inverter power panels, as well as the power connectors in the utility bay so that I can connect the RED hot breakers to one 15 or 30 amp campground supply with "ground fault" while I also connect a campground 15 or 30 amp supply to the BLACK hot with "ground fault".

How can it be "OK" to see 62 volts on a power monitor?

I love this web site!

Roland:
In stead of lugging a gasoline can, why not get a Yamaha generator certified to run on propane. that is what I would do (Honda does not certify propane).

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #17 – June 28, 2014, 10:53:17 pm

John,
So after you plug in the battery charger you attach the clamps to one of your house batteries? Does it matter if
what shore power is? Ie 20-30 or 50?

thanks
Dan

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #18 – June 28, 2014, 11:12:46 pm

John's idea could be enhanced by running most coach outlets on inverter, while having his battery charger plugged into campground pedestal. Turn off coach charger's main panel breaker to use inverter.

If inverter draws more current than battery charger supplies, the batteries will discharge, which is ok as long as when inverter load is removed, charger can catch up. So the larger the battery charger the better.

This method has the advantage of supplying clean 120-volt power to electronics when campground power can be problematic.

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #19 – June 29, 2014, 09:20:56 am

Great Idea, I often carry a portable charger but it had not occurred to me to use it in that manor. Thanks!

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #20 – June 29, 2014, 10:30:35 am

Quote from: P. Wyatt Sabourin – June 28, 2014, 10:31:14 pm

Barry, you said:
"You cannot bond the neutral to ground on a Honda and similar generators there is no neutral. You have hot L1, hot L2, and ground. L1 and L2 are about 62 volts to ground and about 124 volts across the two."

So, when you plug a 15 amp power cord into a Honda EU generator do you get 124VAC between the neutral and the hot? Then, how can there ever be 62 volts on a power monitor which measures AC voltage between neutral and hot on one leg, either RED hot or BLACK hot? (or does it measure voltage between hot and ground?). I suspect that the 50amp/30amp adaptor is at fault.

I have rewired my main and inverter power panels, as well as the power connectors in the utility bay so that I can connect the RED hot breakers to one 15 or 30 amp campground supply with "ground fault" while I also connect a campground 15 or 30 amp supply to the BLACK hot with "ground fault".

How can it be "OK" to see 62 volts on a power monitor?

I love this web site!

My guess is that it uses a similar concept to the way that a 120/240 volt transformer works but with lower voltage. In North America, a 120/240 transformer will output 120 volts hot-neutral and 240 volts hot-hot (no neutral conductor needed). It looks like this little generator puts out 62 volts per leg with no neutral and 120 volts hot-hot. Interesting idea.

Equipment doesn't really care whether there is a neutral involved or not as long as the voltage is correct. This is a different story with electrical services and first means of disconnect where you will bond (link together) the neutral and the ground, which this generator should not do, since you would be linking a hot conductor directly to ground.

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #21 – June 29, 2014, 11:09:15 am

Most modern electronics have power supplies that have wide input ranges (100-250vac, 50-60hz). I know some stuff is more sensitive, but laptop power supplies, cell phone chargers, etc can handle some pretty dirty power.

What I would worry about the most is inductive motors...specifically the A/C units. Low voltage is really hard on motors. Many high quality boats like Hatteras come with isolation tranformers that also allow some voltage boosting. This is because marinas are notorious for low voltage--especially if they are splitting up 3phase and giving 120/208.

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #22 – June 29, 2014, 01:39:23 pm

What am I missing about the need for the Honda 2000 watt gasoline generator ? Is it fuel economy, noise, or what ever I am missing ?
Dave M

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #23 – June 29, 2014, 05:28:49 pm

I was at a rally once in Mass and it got hot and they had 30 plus FTs on a bunch of 30 amp plugs. I carry an auto former but that was more then I could raise it up. So I disconnected and turned on the generator. Now having 32 FTs run there genets in a park is an issue and management came over and we showed them the problem. Somehow they raised the voltage for us. I have been in park service campgrounds in the fall and spring and have had 15 amps or at families homes and plug in a battery charger and live off the inverter.

Re: Honda 2000 vs fot power line monitor

Reply #24 – June 29, 2014, 06:13:41 pm

Because the coach volt meter showed 62 volts, it shows the meter's internal circuit measures ground instead of neutral, for some reason. But since we all now understand Honda inverter standalone generators, 62 on each leg shows all is well.

I would think that a meter that measures hot to ground may not pick up a missing neutral, which is very dangerous. But we should have other ways to catch a missing neutral.

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