Gone in 60 Seconds

Topic: Gone in 60 Seconds (Read 3666 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #25 – July 08, 2014, 11:41:21 am

Pierce, I have no experience in the suppression systems but thought it would do. Our Turbo is fairly close to the underside of bed too (about 8"). I guess the fact we are sitting right next to the exit door in our coach compared to the GVs (centre door) we should stand a better chance of getting out fast if the need arises?? Maybe all GV owners should keep a good hammer next to the seats to smash windows if you have to, instead of running towards the fire if it is "fridge related" ?
Johnh

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #26 – July 08, 2014, 12:00:55 pm

Fires are so tragic and have absolutely no mercy!! Praise God that everyone is OK. These kind of things are good reminders to have fire extinguishers in the drivers area, kitchen area and the bedroom. Have them in proper charge and know how to use them. I have shown Kathy how to use them, but we should review this on a more regular basis and talk about how to use them to get out of the coach. I wonder if there are small scale fire alarm systems that could be installed in key areas of the coach. Have a great day ---- Fritz

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #27 – July 08, 2014, 12:07:36 pm

No consolation at all, but there is something to be said for the steel wall framing in our coaches. A friend of ours lost their rig to a fridge fire here in our home base park. This is a picture of the aftermath... It happened in the middle of the night and they barely had time to get out. They felt lucky to get the loan paid of with the insurance settlement.
Don

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #28 – July 08, 2014, 12:28:16 pm

Don, That Picture is scary, anyone who is going to buy a MH should be shown that photo and also a photo of a burnt Foretravel, no contest.
Gary B

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #29 – July 08, 2014, 12:39:39 pm

As many of you know, I recently experienced a refrigerator fire. Fortunately I was stopped and there to put it out quickly. Damage was limited to the refrigerator alone.

Many lessons were learned.

I was fortunate that this is a Foretravel, and no wood was near the fire, only fire resistant foam.

Since I was running on ac, there was no propane on to fuel the fire after the refrigerant ran out.

My original plan was to have it fixed, but since insurance is paying for it, I am having an exact fit DC compressor refrigerator made.

Had I had it fixed, I was going to install the suppression system that Mac sells.

I was also going to have the device at this website installed.

ARPrv | RV Refrigerator | RV Fridge Control | Install by Cooling Unit | RV Fire

Mac has one in his RV. It detects higher than normal temperatures in the boiler and turns the refrigerator off long enough to cool down before restarting. This should prevent overheating that can lead to a fire. This is prevention, which is better than suppression.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #30 – July 08, 2014, 01:23:09 pm

Tom, I like it!

KISS, $120 WoW

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #31 – July 08, 2014, 02:18:34 pm

Quote from: Tom Lang – July 08, 2014, 12:39:39 pm

I was fortunate that this is a Foretravel, and no wood was near the fire, only fire resistant foam.

Tom,

Earlier model Foretravel owners are not as fortunate as you as we don't have the fire resistant foam, only thin lauan wood. Just wanted to point that out to owners who may think they enjoy the amount of protection you have. Would be nice to know when Foretravel upgraded their fridge installation.

Yes, fire prevention is always number one but if it fails, a method of suppression is the backup. Examples are prevention building codes requiring a fire resistive coating sprayed on steel beams but at the same time for suppression, a sprinkler system with fire department connections.

Pierce

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #32 – July 08, 2014, 06:02:45 pm

Quote from: fouroureye – July 08, 2014, 01:23:09 pm

Tom, I like it!

KISS, $120 WoW

One of reasons I like this inexpensive device is that it turns off the refrigerator for a period of time when an event occurs that might cause damage to the cooling unit. Such events as a blocked flue might be uncommon, but others like being off level might occur at any time. It shuts down before the damage occurs that might end in a failed cooling unit or worse yet, a fire.

Another lesson learned was that the immediate course of action when the refrigerator stops cooling is to shut it down until the cause can be determined and remedied. Continued operation can subject the boiler to excessive heat, again causing it to spring a leak.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #33 – July 08, 2014, 07:14:29 pm

Its a no-brainer, no questions, automatic, seamless!
Thanks for the research

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #34 – July 08, 2014, 07:29:58 pm

Quote from: Tom Lang – July 08, 2014, 12:39:39 pm

I was also going to have the device at this website installed.

ARPrv | RV Refrigerator | RV Fridge Control | Install by Cooling Unit | RV Fire

Mac has one in his RV. It detects higher than normal temperatures in the boiler and turns the refrigerator off long enough to cool down before restarting. This should prevent overheating that can lead to a fire. This is prevention, which is better than suppression.

Tom,
I was at our monthly RV outing with a group and the owner of this device was having a seminar on it. I had one installed as several others did after the seminar. It looked like a no brainer and a good safety precaution.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #35 – July 09, 2014, 01:13:04 am

Quote from: Tom Lang – July 08, 2014, 06:02:45 pm

One of reasons I like this inexpensive device is that it turns off the refrigerator for a period of time when an event occurs that might cause damage to the cooling unit. Such events as a blocked flue might be uncommon, but others like being off level might occur at any time. It shuts down before the damage occurs that might end in a failed cooling unit or worse yet, a fire......................

Tom,Glad to see that you have a plan and that it is progressing for you.
Others may have missed a point that I offered earlier, so I'll repeat the information, just in case it may help someone.
The new ATWOOD Helium refrigerator design (direct physical size "plug and play" replacement for the NORCOLD and DOMETIC 6 and 8 cu. ft. refrigerator sizes) incorporates a similar but more sophisticated protection circuitry. See:

Absorption Refrigerator Options in a U270

As compared to the ARPrv design, which senses only boiler region excessive temperature, to shut off the propane supply,

See <http://www.arprv.com/>;;

the ATWOOD design incorporates both level and temperature sensors to shut off all electrical (AC, and DC, if optionally configured) and propane gas heat generation sources, under undesirable conditions. Alarms of the inappropriate condition(s) are displayed on the refrigerator user front controls. After a given time out, heat source operation is allowed again when both temperature and level conditions are returned to acceptable values.

After triggering a set number of off level or high temperature protections, the ATWOOD design shuts down the refrigerator permanently until an ATWOOD authorized service examines the boiler region and determines that lasting damage has not occurred. A chip on the refrigerator control board accumulates the operational history for ATWOOD's evaluation.

ATWOOD is purposefully vague in their product literature about all of this. And if you press ATWOOD for further information, it becomes clear that the "Patent Pending Status" is a big reason. As Gary would say, our Gov'mt at work again!

So the defense is to go to the patent and see what it says. And it says, in essence (I've paraphrased a lot here as the Patent Pending Document goes on for many pages):

ATWOOD Absorption refrigerator unit with temperature and level monitoring
US 20120102981 A1
Abstract
The control system for the refrigerator has a Helium absorption cooling arrangement and heat source controls that include a temperature sensor associated with the boiler region. A temperature sensor, that senses the temperature of the cooling arrangement, a level sensor that senses the fore and aft (2 to 3°), as well as the side to side (2 to 3°) level condition of the refrigerator, work together to control the energy supply sources associated with the heat generator. A control circuit includes a processor that is in communication with the temperature sensor, the level sensor and the heat sources It is configured to determine a sensed temperature from the temperature sensor and a sensed level condition from the level sensor. The control circuit is configured to turn off the heat source based on determining a high boiler region temperature or a fault condition (the sensed temperature is below a predetermined temperature threshold after a predetermined time of heat source application) or based, at least in part, on determining the sensed level condition exceeds an out-of-level threshold.

The point of all of this is that ATWOOD has designed a direct replacement option designed for a moving platform (RV) service application. Their design maintains the dry camping efficiency of an absorption refrigerator design, but removes the Hydrogen absorption refrigerator fire hazard. And most importantly, it has incorporated better fault protection than is available in any other manufacturer's design (RV or residential) that I am aware of. It costs less, cools better and (thus far) seems to be working very well for us.

The ATWOOD response to my initial problem (some sort of "GOOP" leaking out of the new refrigerator absorption section) was to provide an immediate full replacement of the original unit, at no cost to me. The replacement unit did the same thing (ATWOOD said watch and wait) The small amount of discharge stopped after a few weeks and the refrigerator is working just fine after five months of continuous use.

I'm not trying to promote ATWOOD, but I do think that the DOMETIC and NORCOLD design issues and their Corporate bottom-line greediness have given birth to a whole lot of very real heartache and fear that ATWOOD may have fixed, in a very simple, well thought out design.

From what I can find, absorption refrigerators are responsible for something less than 6% of all RV fires. It puzzles me as to why there is such misunderstanding. From what I have actually seen, just RV owner's actions (or in-actions) and modifications, without proper engineering, materials and installation, are responsible for many more fires than just 6%. Why isn't there corresponding emphasis there?

As another aside, if time share units and motels were subject to the same fear mongering and over reaction associated with absorption refrigerators as RV's are, no one would ever stay in a room or suite equipped with an under the counter drink or efficiency refrigerator. Yet the hotel industry (hydrogen) absorption units are favored, efficient, quiet, widely used, never a problem, last forever, etc, etc. Of course they aren't used off-level either, and that is a big difference.

At any rate, it's always important to stay aware of one's options. It's obviously not favored by the more outspoken FoFum's, but the ATWOOD option seems to be working out well for us at a much lower cost ($'s and support systems). The ATWOOD option maintains the original FT design (dry camping and minimal shore power) flexibility without adding batteries, inverters, alternator burdens, generator run times, solar panels, controller complications, insurance and parking limitations, etc. to complicate our (as well as our neighbor's) enjoyment of the grand life.
Life is good, enjoy it...................and KISS!
Neal

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #36 – July 09, 2014, 01:29:03 am

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – July 07, 2014, 11:22:11 am

Would say it was worth somewhere around $30K. Good if you can supply any recent expenses, etc. Dealing with insurance companies can be difficult. Years ago, I had a total loss and was offered half what I thought it was worth. I did a lot of research for what the same year was selling for and after a few months, settled for about twice what they had initially offered.

Looks like it may have started in the interior. Fridge would be number one on my list. Easy for the fire to start and the fire spread from the wind while driving. Forward motion may have prevented detecting the fire for a minute or two. Too late anyway once it gets started.

Hey, my family has been in the fire service since 1927 so when I lined our refrigerator compartment with Hardie backerboard, there was a reason. Stop putting it off or rationalizing and just get it done! This area is a BOMB.

The older Foretravels do NOT have the fire resistive foam the later models have plus the OEM fridges are reaching the end of their lives.

The only thing burnable is cover on top of the roof. This could be replaced with an aluminum and then would be about 100% fireproof. Check the photos, do it and stop worrying: http://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/100921130470085833749/albums/5794180000392973681

Looks like a good 6V-92TA and Allison transmission are OK.

I need the engine door! Looks to be still serviceable.

PierceThanks for the pics. Will be tackling that sooner than later. Are the late model Dometic units safer than the original units at all?

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #37 – July 09, 2014, 02:02:09 am

I too noticed the added out of level sensor on the Atwood helium models. The ARPrv unit does not directly sense out of level, but it does indirectly as a non-level condition will cause the boiler temperature to rise, shutting down the refrigerator.

When the ARPrv unit shuts down the refrigerator, it turns off the 12 volt supply, which shuts off everything, including the propane valve and the electric heating element.

They do make another model, just slightly more expensive, which included a remote display panel that can be mounted inside the RV to tell you what is happening. This is the model Mac has in his rig.

From what I have read, and from talking to Mac, I believe everyone with a hydrogen filled absorption refrigerator should spend $120 on this right now. Money well spent, for safety sake.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #38 – July 09, 2014, 02:21:40 am

I think as they move toward the end of their lifespan, they become more and more of a liability. Some have had recalls because of early failures and others have failed before you would expect it. Ours had a failure before we bought it so when I took it out, I was able to see what is actually inside the enclosure. In a few hours, I was able to make the enclosure very fire resistive at a minimal expense. I had a new Norcold I horse traded for in the garage that fit in the spot without much work. In about 6 more years, I will probably replace it with a residential unit or perhaps an Atwood like posted above. The sensor Tom and Barry mention is an excellent idea but a rust through situation might still cause a fire. Older Foretravels are also likely to have dry rot in the wood surrounding the exterior fridge access door so it's a good time to rebuild the area around it when things are apart. I think I spent less than $50 for all the backerboard, screws, caulk, etc and only hand tools with the exception of an electric screwdriver did the job. Do a web search for recalls against your model number. Makes owning one a little safer but nothing will make them 100% risk free.

Even if parking for lunch where the coach is not level, I shut off the fridge. Easy to just push a button to get it going again.

Also, remember the fridge is between you and the exit door in case of fire at night. An exit plan and a serviced smoke detector are important.

The fire could also have easily started in the engine compartment where there is only a little more than 2 inches from our turbo to the old foam insulation above with plywood just above that. In many cases, the insulation goes bad and hangs down until it touches the turbo. Vibration causes exhaust component failure so important to do inspections on all diesel models of the exhaust manifolds, clamps, pipes looking for black soot. A number of members have had failures there. I know other forums where Eagles and Prevosts have had engine fires. The owner of Tegas Coach Works passed away but I did talk to his son and one of the topics was turbo fires in their buses. A good way to extend the life of exhaust components is to fast idle the diesels before shutting down to bring turbo and engine room temperatures down after a hard pull on grades. Expansion and contraction heat cycles will also age the components so another reason to be alert on any of our turbo engines. Will post photos as I make the engine compartment more fire resistive.

Pierce

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #39 – July 09, 2014, 05:50:49 am

I also wonder how many RV refrigerators ever see any inspection or proper cleaning until they stop working. I hope Atwood will expand their line to a direct replacement for the 12 cu foot side by sides real soon, as they seem to have created a better mouse trap. Like Neil for all the same reasons I like the absorption fridge.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #40 – July 09, 2014, 11:23:25 am

Home refrig have mounting, door locking, sealing & size issues, which we all have to overcome ourselves when installing an electric home refrigerator in an RV.

Atwood could take advantage of these limitations and add RV electric fridges to their line. They could be 110 volt or 12 volt compressors. As more and more RVers convert to home fridges, Atwood & Norcold loose sales because they are not in that market.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #41 – July 09, 2014, 11:28:08 am

Here is an interesting comparison between Atwood's new helium RV refrigerator and the comparatively sized Dometic. The use of helium greatly reduces the chance of fire since it is an inert gas. The street price is just over $1000 with about another hundred for either wood grained or black front panels. Ford's video won't win an academy award as he takes 20 minutes for what should have been done in 2 or 3 minutes but is very informative for a prospective buyer. Here is a PDF of the Atwood vs Dometic test: http://rvrefrigeration.com/wp-content/uploads/Evaluation-Report-rev4.pdf

YouTube video at: FRVTS No 14 Atwood Refrigerator Part 2, Atwood RV Refrigerator, Dometic,

Pierce

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #42 – July 09, 2014, 09:21:05 pm

An error on my part, a new dry chemical extinguisher is good for six years before it must be recharged. Sorry about that.

A 2.5 gallon water filled extinguisher is cheap and if filled with a 3% or 6% mix of AFFF (Aqueous Film-Forming Foam) with water does a good job of putting out an engine compartment fire. 6% is about $90 for a five gallon container and 3% is about $112. Only need a little bit but they don't sell in pints and quarts are expensive. Dish soap does a fairly good job also for a lot less $$.

Pierce

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #43 – July 10, 2014, 06:50:54 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – July 09, 2014, 02:21:40 am

I think as they move toward the end of their lifespan, they become more and more of a liability. Some have had recalls because of early failures and others have failed before you would expect it. Ours had a failure before we bought it so when I took it out, I was able to see what is actually inside the enclosure. In a few hours, I was able to make the enclosure very fire resistive at a minimal expense. I had a new Norcold I horse traded for in the garage that fit in the spot without much work. In about 6 more years, I will probably replace it with a residential unit or perhaps an Atwood like posted above. The sensor Tom and Barry mention is an excellent idea but a rust through situation might still cause a fire. Older Foretravels are also likely to have dry rot in the wood surrounding the exterior fridge access door so it's a good time to rebuild the area around it when things are apart. I think I spent less than $50 for all the backerboard, screws, caulk, etc and only hand tools with the exception of an electric screwdriver did the job. Do a web search for recalls against your model number. Makes owning one a little safer but nothing will make them 100% risk free.

Even if parking for lunch where the coach is not level, I shut off the fridge. Easy to just push a button to get it going again.

Also, remember the fridge is between you and the exit door in case of fire at night. An exit plan and a serviced smoke detector are important.

The fire could also have easily started in the engine compartment where there is only a little more than 2 inches from our turbo to the old foam insulation above with plywood just above that. In many cases, the insulation goes bad and hangs down until it touches the turbo. Vibration causes exhaust component failure so important to do inspections on all diesel models of the exhaust manifolds, clamps, pipes looking for black soot. A number of members have had failures there. I know other forums where Eagles and Prevosts have had engine fires. The owner of Tegas Coach Works passed away but I did talk to his son and one of the topics was turbo fires in their buses. A good way to extend the life of exhaust components is to fast idle the diesels before shutting down to bring turbo and engine room temperatures down after a hard pull on grades. Expansion and contraction heat cycles will also age the components so another reason to be alert on any of our turbo engines. Will post photos as I make the engine compartment more fire resistive.

Pierce

Thanks for all the info!

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #44 – July 10, 2014, 10:22:05 pm

Okay, so in addition to our fire plan practice and discussion, after seeing these photos I went to a store in Grand Rapids. I bought two much larger dry chemical extinguishers and two of these:

http://www.statx.com/First_Responder.asp

As soon as I can get it done, hardy backer will go throughout the closet in between the frig and the boys coach midship. Larger windows will be installed in the bunk areas, fire suppression will be added to frig.

Thanks guys. Really good helpful stuff. It is scary to see these photos but not nearly as scary as being in a fire ill equipped with kids poorly educated. Had another practice run tonight in Petosky.

Check out the StatX. Expensive as heck but it could be invaluable if you need time to get everyone out.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #45 – July 10, 2014, 11:57:52 pm

Joe,

How much did StatX First Responder cost? I see prices of several hundred for each. How large is each can? Can you store the can outside from the case it comes in (RV space is a premium).

Great that you are being preventive.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #46 – July 11, 2014, 08:22:38 am

I paid $150 a can from these people: Rapid Fire Protection Inc.

Looks like storage temps are permissible from -40 to 140. 6.875" tall and 3.188" diameter. Mine did not come in a case.

Spec page is here: http://www.statx.com/First_Responder.asp

Hope everyone has a great day.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #47 – July 12, 2014, 10:18:16 am

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – July 09, 2014, 11:28:08 am

.......................YouTube video at: FRVTS No 14 Atwood Refrigerator Part 2, Atwood RV Refrigerator, Dometic,

Thanks Pierce.
As always, you raise excellent points. I didn't see any need to raise the following issues before now, but since you have referred the FoFums to Roger Ford's ATWOOD video, I guess that I should speak up, again.

I have used Roger Ford's ATWOOD information, but with caution. I believe that at least some of the ATWOOD testing information that Roger presents may be intentionally misleading. Just in case someone else may be tempted to repeat the extensive research that I got into (because of Roger Ford's video) I'll offer the following:
Taken overall, the Roger Ford training videos contain some of the very best information available on absorption type refrigeration operation, theory and repair. Roger's video techniques may be difficult to endure, but I have a lot of respect for his knowledge and for what he does to promote owner and repair personnel knowledge.
But in the (now) nearly 1.5 year old "ATWOOD tilt" video, Roger goes on a prolonged, uncomfortable rant about several issues;

the noise that the ATWOOD external condenser fan produces,

the ATWOOD tilt technology,

the resultant (lack of) indication,

the ATWOOD Company failure to respond to his questions and

some boiler region engineering design details (that he subsequently referred to a third party engineering lab).

I had seen the video (and puzzled over it) nearly a year before my NORCOLD died. Once it died and I was seriously evaluating my replacement options, I tried to follow up on that video with both Roger Ford and with ATWOOD.
What I was trying to determine from Roger was whether his ATWOOD test unit had appropriately protected itself or not, regardless of what the test unit front panel indications were during his induced tilt conditions, as well as what the third party lab had determined regarding Roger's design questions. He's a very capable person and I'm sure that he had answers, most probably before he made the video public. For whatever reason, all I ever got were additional indications that Roger had some sort of axe to grind with ATWOOD - and he wasn't about to answer the following easy questions;

Regardless of what was indicated on the front panel, did the ATWOOD test refrigerator interrupt electrical heater and/or propane supply when the test unit was in an "excess tilt" condition?

If it did interrupt the energy source(s), at what tilt angle did it occur, how long did it take to react to the tilt condition and did some sort of thermal limit also have to be reached before energy source interruption occurred?

Was/is the rear mounted condenser fan mandatory for all operation or might it be disabled until additional air flow is needed to maintain cooling or improve efficiency? (ATWOOD says that it may be disabled, so I put a switch on mine.)

Did Roger ever receive an answer from the independent engineering lab, regarding the boiler region design question that he raised in that video? (As I understand it, the ATWOOD design avoids introducing welding stresses into the most critical system failure region [the boiler region]).

Unlike Roger, ATWOOD was professional and explained the tilt operation theory to me (also explained in the publicly available Patent Application). ATWOOD wouldn't speak badly of Ford, nor would they directly address the points raised in the Ford video, but they reassured me that the points raised were non-issues. Because ATWOOD was more professional and rational, I eventually discounted the Roger Ford information and went ahead, trusting that ATWOOD knows what they were doing. It was clear that they weren't going to give away any Patent Pending trade secrets.
So that is the caution, regarding using Roger Ford's ATWOOD information. Take the video with a grain of salt. I believe that the information that Roger raises may be tainted by whatever disagreement he has had or continues to have with ATWOOD.
On a second point, you refer to absorption refrigerators "rusting through".

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – July 09, 2014, 02:21:40 am

..................I will probably replace it with a residential unit or perhaps an Atwood like posted above. The sensor Tom and Barry mention is an excellent idea but a rust through situation might still cause a fire.........................

From all that I understand and from Roger Ford's videos (for example); Roger has been in the business of repairing failed absorption refrigeration units for over 35 years. He has dissected thousands of failed absorption refrigeration units and he has never once seen a "rust through" condition. In fact, as compared to a residential, compression-based refrigeration system with thin walled copper solder joints, he states that the steel construction is probably the single most important factor in favor of an absorption design. RV and Marine absorption style cooling units are built of heavy gauge steel stock and all components are welded which make them far more durable/less susceptible to mobile platform shock and vibration failure as well as joint fatigue. The internal chromate additive makes them absolutely impervious to internal rusting. The non insulated outside surfaces are warmer than ambient, which makes all of the pressurized sections all but immune to external rusting. If they fail "through-wall", it is generally in only one of two places; By far, the predominant failure location is in the boiler region which sees repeated thermal stress cycles from the electrical heater or propane flame application (it is also right where the NORCOLD and DOMETIC designs introduce long longitudinal residual welding stresses). The next, but far less likely failure location is (an over pressurization failure) at the "blow-out plug fitting". The first is generally a "gradual leak before break" scenario. The second is generally a catastrophic rapid depressurization.
You mention that the ATWOOD wood insert panels are $100 additional cost.

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – July 09, 2014, 11:28:08 am

..................The (ATWOOD) street price is just over $1000 with about another hundred for either wood grained or black front panels........................................

Again, from my experience and as detailed in my previous posts and cost spreadsheet,
Absorption Refrigerator Options in a U270
the ATWOOD panels don't match the FT interiors in either wood grain, coloration or quality. They are flat 3/16" plywood inserts (or scratch-able material for the black) whereas the FT panels are solid 1/2" oak wood inserts that have been run through an edge shaper to create a high quality, fluted profile. I had to do just a minor amount of edge trim to have my original panels fit perfectly.
On a final point, Roger Ford says that the ATWOOD design reduces fire risk due to Helium being less flammable than Hydrogen. You are much closer when you state that Helium greatly reduces the chance of fire since it is an inert gas.
The fact is that Helium is a totally inert gas and cannot be made to burn. And the other three additives in an absorption style refrigerator (distilled water, chromates and pure anhydrous ammonia) won't burn freely either. Only Ammonia, in a lab, in the presence of a catalyst, or under strictly controlled lab conditions, can be ignited, but that would be improbable, if not impossible, in the field.
FWIW,
Neal

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #48 – July 12, 2014, 11:36:08 am

I put in a residential so I do not need to worry my little head over any of this talk. I have absolutely no problems with it and cost me a hell of a lot less to do than replace old one with a new Absorbtion one. Plus we got extra usable storage space.
Luckily as I do not like to park for months on a concrete slab and pay ungodly amounts of money for the right to do so (this to me is the opposite idea of the reason to own a motor home) I had installed Solar to be free of that Umbilical cord !! This (having my own power source-quiet type) was another reason for electric Fridge, although many folks run fine off inverter and Batteries without any Solar.
I look at most comments in this article and it seems to me that the people who are discussing the benefits of the very much more expensive propane units are the ones that are "parked and plugged in for months", surely they should be leaning more to the Residential type than others??
This baffles me!
Again I paraphrase Dave M's comment "whatever makes you comfy and happy" I guess.
JohnH

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #49 – July 12, 2014, 12:06:47 pm

Quote from: John Haygarth – July 12, 2014, 11:36:08 am

I put in a residential so I do not need to worry my little head over any of this talk. I have absolutely no problems with it and cost me a hell of a lot less to do than replace old one with a new Absorbtion one. Plus we got extra usable storage space.
Luckily as I do not like to park for months on a concrete slab and pay ungodly amounts of money for the right to do so (this to me is the opposite idea of the reason to own a motor home) I had installed Solar to be free of that Umbilical cord !! This (having my own power source-quiet type) was another reason for electric Fridge, although many folks run fine off inverter and Batteries without any Solar.
I look at most comments in this article and it seems to me that the people who are discussing the benefits of the very much more expensive propane units are the ones that are "parked and plugged in for months", surely they should be leaning more to the Residential type than others??
This baffles me!
Again I paraphrase Dave M's comment "whatever makes you comfy and happy" I guess.
JohnH

John,
I guess that you're aiming all of that at me, since few others speak out in defense of absorption refrigerator technology.
We have over 180K miles on our coach. We have put every one of those miles on ourselves and most of that travel has been "off the grid". We may park in some beautiful destinations but we are more likely to be unplugged and enjoying the benefits of a beautiful design made for traveling without an umbilical cord or any (residential refrigerator driven) additional wear 'n tear, batteries, inverters or support systems.

I'm just trying to present balanced opinions/options and be considerate of other people's needs/viewpoints.
FoFums is a grand exchange of enthusiastic TEAM information, but if the entire TEAM were restricted to only one viewpoint, there would be much less value in the exchange.
Just my opinion, but I'm "comfy and happy" with that.
Neal

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