Gone in 60 Seconds

Topic: Gone in 60 Seconds (Read 3666 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #50 – July 12, 2014, 12:51:32 pm

Thank you Neal for the details. I respect you for sharing the technical data on absorption refrigerator. My Norcold died last year after 140000 miles and 16 years on the road. That to me is durability and longevity.
I listened to all the positive responses and respect their opinion but made the decision to go with another Norcold. For the previous track record. I think one would have more to worry about a accident then a fire. If the risk of fire was a viable concern; you can bet that the insurance companies would be charging higher rates to those of us that have absorption refrigerator.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #51 – July 12, 2014, 01:21:18 pm

Actuall Neal I was not meaning to "slant" my opinion to anyone in particular, just my thought's as to who (according to their previous postings) are relying on RV Park power more than not. That is why I said it "baffles me" that they would more likely replace with Electric than most.
I too enjoy your well thought out postings as I would not go to those depths to think about it, so I leave that part up to others!! I am too busy doing a miriad of things at the same time so for me the easiest way to solve an issue is "go with my gut feeling" at that time. Sometimes I have to retrace my steps, so to speak, but the experience is gained.
I have seen the expression KISS a few times and that is the way I go.
Hey, we are all in this together, helping others I hope.
Sorry if I offended you as it was not meant to. I was trying to put my observations out there but maybe did not express it correctly.
JohH

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #52 – July 12, 2014, 01:52:18 pm

Quote from: Neal Pillsbury – July 12, 2014, 12:06:47 pm

John,
I guess that you're aiming all of that at me, since few others speak out in defense of absorption refrigerator technology.
We have over 180K miles on our coach. We have put every one of those miles on ourselves and most of that travel has been "off the grid". We may park in some beautiful destinations but we are more likely to be unplugged and enjoying the benefits of a beautiful design made for traveling without an umbilical cord or any (residential refrigerator driven) additional wear 'n tear, batteries, inverters or support systems.

I'm just trying to present balanced opinions/options and be considerate of other people's needs/viewpoints.
FoFums is a grand exchange of enthusiastic TEAM information, but if the entire TEAM were restricted to only one viewpoint, there would be much less value in the exchange.
Just my opinion, but I'm "comfy and happy" with that.
Neal

I cannot justify the expense on our coach to replace the dometic refer. Biggest issue to me is the gen is not in a quiet box. Too noisy for quiet locations.

Everything is a package. 660 amp hours worth of 8g8d's gels turns out not to be enough IMO for a household refer installation.

Battery location does not easily support installing four batteries together. Long cabling to an additional battery works but is not the best way to equalize the batteries charge and discharge.

For me I would have to source a duplicate to my lower battery tray and move the installed parts in my battery location through the compartment wall then add the tray and the fourth battery.

We normally prefer to dry camp. Prettier normally in our areas.

Weather areas requiring a/c on all the time would probably have me switch coaches to one with a gen in a quiet box.

So for my perfectionist satisfaction I would need at least four batteries closely mounted, a quiet gen, 1000 watts of solar, new magnum 2812 to 3012 inverter with auto start and battery temp monitoring.

Then the refer installation.

Way too much money invested in a 97 for me.

The coach as-is was designed to work as a package with the installed refer.

Major re-engineering would be required for my tastes in rv'ing.

We are not tight campground fans. Love a spread out dry camp area.

The aqua hot in operation consumes a fair amount of amp hours already. Adding the additional consumption of the household refer would require two hours of gen time per day to restore the roughly 260 amp hours consumed between both devices if both used.

Drawing down the batteries to lower levels shortens their service life greatly. Look at the deka web site.

The gen on continually would allow the household refer with no problems but I barely run ours. Noise. Smell.

The money I see invested in paint jobs and headlight conversions and solar and household refers and such does not seem to be returned in resale. Over built for the price point.

Unless you intend to run 10-15 years to use the money invested the resale in not much increased.

I have to slap my hand about putting money in our coach as I do not like to lose that much money for the small benefits.

Although those who do invest drive up the prices on the used coaches in general for the rest of us.

Thank you

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #53 – July 12, 2014, 02:14:02 pm

Bob, re all the upgrades. I have spent 5k on the solar and batteries etc and $500 on fridge and cabinet as all the other things were done when I bought(paint/ lights and Banks Stinger). I am lucky as I can cut the cost of upgrades/ changes by doing it myself both inside and outside the coach. In 4 yrs I may have spent 8k total (which incl tyres on front & resonator change) and all tiling and led lights inside. I think that is pretty cheap considering and with the price I paid to buy coach I can still get back all my money and more than I have spent on it. Not bad for 4yrs of use.
JohnH

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #54 – July 12, 2014, 03:02:11 pm

After my refrigerator caught fire, I would have felt safe replacing the cooling unit and other damaged components, but only with the addition on the ARPrv unit to prevent fires and a fire suppression system to put out fires. My wife, on the other hand, did not share my feelings. This is why the insurance company is footing most of the bill for an exact fit custom made compressor driven marine/RV refrigerator. We both need to sleep at night.

I would have preferred the repaired Domestic for boondocking, as my minimal solar would keep the batteries charged while my large propane tank would last for many months in warm weather. After the new refrigerator is installed, I will need to do a new power audit and see how it looks. I do have twompre solar panels stored in a bay waiting for installation, which should help greatly.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #55 – July 23, 2014, 08:07:14 am

For anyone who is still following this saga, I am pleased to report that I did get paid by my insurance company (Progressive) yesterday for a total loss. Unbeknownst to me, I had a declared limit policy, which means that under no circumstances would the insurance pay over $25,000. In my case, my '92 U300 was appraised by them at $27,400. So even though I thought the coach was probably worth more than $27,400, seems silly to argue about it since they're not paying more than $25,000. All things considered, I feel like I came out even. They also covered by first $1000 loss of contents with no deductable, and sales tax, which is $1,750.

I probably would have kept that coach for years, as it really was everything anyone would need. Now that she's gone, I am thinking of something a few years newer (new body style) with perhaps a couple of slides. It's going to be a while before I'm ready to jump into another one.

Shopping for a Foretravel is quite a challenge. I think if I lived in Texas, it wouldn't be so bad with those dealerships down there. In New Jersey, I have to do some serious traveling, especially if I want to evaluate more than one coach.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #56 – July 23, 2014, 08:49:05 am

I realizz its none of my business but, that seems LOW

Could you buy a 92 u300 for that? Might be tough! Appraised by them? Sure looks like an independent might be better or better yet actual sales figures.

Glad your happy, good luck with your search.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #57 – July 23, 2014, 09:02:59 am

Quote from: littledubz – July 23, 2014, 08:07:14 am

For anyone who is still following this saga, I am pleased to report that I did get paid by my insurance company (Progressive) yesterday for a total loss. Unbeknownst to me, I had a declared limit policy, which means that under no circumstances would the insurance pay over $25,000. In my case, my '92 U300 was appraised by them at $27,400. So even though I thought the coach was probably worth more than $27,400, seems silly to argue about it since they're not paying more than $25,000. All things considered, I feel like I came out even. They also covered by first $1000 loss of contents with no deductable, and sales tax, which is $1,750.

I can recall putting that appraisal number in with Progressive. I also didn't necessarily realize that it was a hard limit since my coach value is probably higher than I originally paid for it at this point.

In the end, glad that this was all taken care of and good luck with your search for a new motorhome.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #58 – July 23, 2014, 09:05:04 am

I talked to others on this forum with recent purchases of very similar coaches, and that definitely seems to be in the ballpark. I bought mine in '09 for less than that, of course I have since put THOUSANDS into in, but I supposed I just have to be philosophical about those expenditures.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #59 – July 23, 2014, 09:09:15 am

He had a defined limit policy. He had agreed to $25,000 as value, so that is what insurance co owed, plus sales tax on that amount. No room to discuss, since value was in contract (policy)

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #60 – July 23, 2014, 09:47:58 am

Was the fire caused by refrigerator? This is a real shame; To lose any Foretravel, but this one seemed especially nice. I have gone overboard with fire prevention systems on my old coach. After 20yrs of ownership It would be like losing a family member if something were to happen. I've been around rv's since the '70's and it seems to me that refrigerator fires were almost unheard of til the last 5-10 yrs??

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #61 – July 23, 2014, 10:00:17 am

My brother has a small camping trailer that was old when he purchased it in the late 70's. He is still using the refrigerator to this day. Tomorrow I will go look at the back of the refrigerator to see what it looks like. He has had no problems with the thing and it runs on propane. Maybe they made them "tougher" in the "olden" days.

Roland

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #62 – July 23, 2014, 10:06:22 am

"Maybe they made them "tougher" in the "olden" days." I think that may be the case. No real evidence for that, other than everything seems to be disposable now.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #63 – July 23, 2014, 10:09:08 am

Tim, I get that. Just seems odd that appraisal by insurance was so close to limit.

As to price of 92 u300, many searches finding few and all are over the 25K. But to each an opinion. Take care

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #64 – July 23, 2014, 10:38:41 am

Prices on Craigslist, etc are just wishing prices. Should be able to find a nice later U300 for right around $20K with some cheaper, some more. Cash is always king plus no one is going to finance an older RV.

Pierce

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #65 – July 23, 2014, 10:39:06 am

Ahah!

Yes, but they are in business of appraising as low as you will accept, and to be fair, it is a thin market and old vehicles hard to appraise in general

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #66 – July 23, 2014, 11:32:07 am

As far as price of solar goes, I have FAR less than $5k into mine. In fact, I have $500 into the two 240-watt panels and $140 into the two Unisolar panels plus $650 into the Classic 150 controller.

Add another two hundred into the mounts, wires, circuit breaker panel, 12vdc busbar and misc. parts. Just under $1500 for 640-watts of solar; installed (by me; a 71-year-old guy and his wife). If I had the rooftop space I could add two more 240-watt panels and still be under $2,000. And I bought the panels over two years ago so prices for those are probably even lower now (except for the Unisolar panels which are getting scarce).

$2k for more than a killowatt of power sounds pricey but remember that it's always on as long as there is daylight (or if you're parked under the lights at Walmart).

A residential fridge for my U225 runs around $450 (but I have not bought or installed one, yet). My inverter cost under $200. So for just over $2k I would be able to sleep better at night knowing that my refrigerator is not going to catch on fire. Probably.

Now $2k is a fair bit of change, I'll admit. But when you remember that one of our forum members had to pony up $5k just to repair his (admitedly sophisticated and pricey) generator and I think it all falls into place.

No noise, no exhaust, no vibration, no fuel consumed, and no repair bills. And that's *before* you get no refrigerator fire and a burned-up coach. In our case if we had a fridge fire we'd probably try to get our dogs out before we escaped the fire and there is no telling how that could turn out. Not to mention getting out of those bedroom windows at 70-years-of-age.

You might notice that the controller cost as much as all the panels combined. But without that particular controller I think I'd need another couple hundred watts of panels and I don't have much roof space left to do that. The Classic 150 is the smartest charge controller I could find (well, that Pierce could find, at least) and it improves array performance above that of even other MPPT controllers.

Installation has been interesting and it's not completely over yet. I still have to finish the wire runs and secure them but I think the configuration is now fixed and the 4 panels have been working for the past two weeks. Yesterday evening we siliconed all the holes in the combiner box and at the top of the closet where the wires enter the coach.

I turned the shore-power charger/converter off a week ago and leave one LED lamp on in the bedroom, one florescent light on in the salon and the smart fan on (set to 80-degrees). Batteries are still 12.5vdc in the morning.

Yesterday we had clouds and rain and at 5pm the panels were still pumping 5-7 amps into the batteries while I had all the florescent lights on over the half-dinette since I was sitting over there soldering. The batteries were charged up since the rig had sat there all day so that was all the power I was using; nothing was coming from the batteries at all.

That's another advantage of solar power. Once the battery bank gets charged then extra solar power is free energy. In the afternoon you can use power tools, charge laptops and tablets, top off the trolling motor battery for your fishing boat, etc. without drawing any power from your battery bank (or, if you do, that gets put right back in by the solar system).

No noise, no smell, no vibration, no propane cost, no moving parts, and no generator repair bill. I don't know about you guys but we live on electric power and I'm willing to manage the system a little bit to ensure that I have enough of it; especially for free.

Whether it adds to the resale value of the motor home is not much of an issue for me; any more than replacing the batteries or tires would be. Or paying for insurance every year. Those have to be done when it's time, regardless. And maybe you could even talk your insurance agent into lowering your rate because of the significantly lower fire risks. Equally, I don't try to "pencil out" costs versus return. Probably because I'm a better technician than I am a business person. The use I get from the system and the enhanced safety feature are what's important to me; not any economic return.

Besides that... it's pretty cool!

Craig

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #67 – July 23, 2014, 12:07:57 pm

Having had our solar for a few years and very happy with it I am in agreement with Craig's comments.
My system cost around $5k partly because I did not install the original set up but also added 3 of the best batteries to enhance the system and give lots of storage, they cost around $1600 at the time. I added extra panels and rewired the whole system for less voltage loss
I look at it that I can do most repairs/ improvements myself where others pay what I feel outlandish amounts for this work, so I gather it all works out. I would NOT go back to a Propane fridge but you do need some sort of power other than the genset which I would not use other than in an emergency as I feel unless it is really really quiet it is an infringement on others close to you. Another reason we have this coach is for the peace away from the crowds and solar helps in that regard.
JohnH

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #68 – July 23, 2014, 12:18:17 pm

Solar is definitely on the list of things to do/get on our next RV. (We likely won't add solar to our current rig as we will only have it a couple of more years before getting what I hope will be an FT coach.) After reading through this thread, I think a residential refrigerator may well be another thing we'll want to add. Unless, of course, it already has one or perhaps one of the helium absorption models.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #69 – July 23, 2014, 02:36:25 pm

The cause of the fire was never reported to me. In my mind however, it is a virtual certainty that this fire started in the engine/bedroom. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the fridge was running on AC power.

If you want my opinion, I would advise you to be mindful of whatever insulation is between the engine and the bottom of the bed. I know there have been topics on this forum regarding insulation deteriorating both in the engine compartment and in the generator compartment. Other than sound, if that insulation had another purpose it must have been for heat. Honestly, I never really noticed a difference in the decibels since that insulation started to break down, so I'm thinking it may be for heat insulation.

Anyway, take it for what it's worth. I know Pierce has a coach like mine, and I'm guessing he has already put the Hardi Backer panels on the bottom of his bed. If I still had a Foretravel, that's what I'd do too.

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #70 – July 23, 2014, 04:23:12 pm

Insulation Fire Hazard, Part 1

OK, here are a some photos of the engine room and generator compartment insulation fire hazard. As you can see, the turbo is just below the roof of the compartment. Turbos do glow after a hard climb and you can imagine what it would do to the insulation as it sags down against it. If one of those clamps fail, direct flame would likely catch the insulation on fire. The mattress is only separated from the insulation by 3/4" plywood.

Here is a photo of the generator compartment exhaust pipe. Nothing failed but the installation allows the pipe to rest against the insulation on the side wall. In our case, the vibration caused the wrapping to wear through and then it melted the insulation. If the pipe had failed, direct flame would have caught the insulation on fire. As you can see, there is only screen forward and the fiberglass door so the fire would spread rapidly.

And last, if you wonder if the insulation will burn, take a look at the photo. It also puts out clouds of foul smoke that accompany the flames. Now with the plywood burned through, the flames would start on the mattress releasing hydrogen cyanide and carbon monoxide.

While you have your generator pulled out (two 9/16" bolts/nuts), check under the generator for generator mount condition. They may look fine from above but may have failed underneath as can be seen in the photo. Kent Speers replaced his and made an excellent post with two manufactures and part numbers. See his post after using the "search" box.

Also, with the generator pulled out, it's time to check the fan belt for condition and tension. Hard to reach it but the pulley nut can be tightened to bring the two sides closer together and will tighten the belt if loose. Cracks in the belt are a no go.

Will post the Hardie Backerboard installation in Part II. I still have the side panels to finish.

Pierce

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #71 – July 23, 2014, 04:37:43 pm

Couple of more things. If the turbo has been replaced (failed because of driver technique?), check the shop's work. In one case, the clamps on the exhaust side were not installed incorrectly and one came off. In the other, the intake clamp was not installed right, came off and the Detroit ingested lots of dirt and required new pistons/liners with a $18K in-frame overhaul.

Pierce

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #72 – July 23, 2014, 07:47:09 pm

Quote from: littledubz – July 23, 2014, 02:36:25 pm

.....................The cause of the fire was never reported to me. In my mind however, it is a virtual certainty that this fire started in the engine/bedroom. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the fridge was running on AC power................................................
......................If you want my opinion, I would advise you to be mindful of whatever insulation is between the engine and the bottom of the bed........................
......................Other than sound, if that insulation had another purpose it must have been for heat.................................
......................I know Pierce has a coach like mine, and I'm guessing he has already put the Hardi Backer panels on the bottom of his bed. If I still had a Foretravel, that's what I'd do too.

"littledubz",
Thanks for the insight. You are giving us important safety information by calling attention to your suspicions. And, thanks Pierce for the follow-up.

It's a shame that the insurance company didn't share (or more likely, didn't even try to determine ) the root cause of your unfortunate grief.
I came from an industry that is obsessively focused on precision in Root Cause Analysis and the recognition/correction of important precursors. It's highly frustrating to see opportunities to learn so readily dismissed by the likes of insurance companies. Saving analysis $'s at the expense of a more noble safety goal, I assume. It's also frustrating to see precursors overlooked by jumping to unfounded conclusions (evidence 26 of the posts in this thread focused on absorption refrigerators vs. engine bay insulation).
Each of us can contribute to the safety and quality of our Foretravels by just having a thorough, questioning attitude in determining the true root cause of significant incidents and events...........and then sharing the root cause with others on this forum. See:
Foretravel vs. SOB Decision Analysis
It is very seldom that a significant event or incident occurs without significant precursors having occurred before the event. But precursors to significant events tend to be overlooked or dismissed for a thousand and one reasons. In hindsight, most of the thousand reasons are not good.
Take a quick look at the Three Mile Island nuclear plant event, the 2000 Concorde crash, the space shuttle Challenger disaster precursors, if you need convincing. Those are BIG scale events, of course, but the value of a questioning attitude and Root Cause Analysis applies equally to our daily opportunities to learn from Foretravel event precursors and (through the power of the forum), the precursors can help us all avoid unnecessary safety challenges.
Thanks "littledubz", and once again, sorry for your loss.
Neal

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #73 – July 23, 2014, 10:27:20 pm

Neal ---- You'd be surprised at how very few people understand "root cause" and how to determine it. I also have an in depth working in this area and if you'd like to chat about that, send me a PM with your e-mail add. and we can share stories. Thanks and have a great day ---- Fritz

Re: Gone in 60 Seconds

Reply #74 – July 24, 2014, 04:24:41 am

Before I stumbled on the Foretravel I bought, I was lusting over a 92 Beaver Marquis with a 6v92 Silver engine with 350hp. The owner sent me a ton of pictures. There was a blanket over the turbo on that engine.
How effective is that?
I was surprised to see something that blanketed something that got that hot, but remember my research showed it was a GREAT item for HP increase and EXPENSIVE!
How about fire protection?

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