Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

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Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

July 18, 2014, 12:04:08 am

Has anybody found any inexpensive solutions to doing heavy duty scan tools? Our rigs don't use OBDII like cars, but there are standards. Almost every system (engine, brake, transmission) OEM now sells a laptop software that one can buy to communicate/program. These programs are all over the place on prices. Allison sells DOC. To do program changes requires certain access.

Regardless of the software, all of these programs require a "translator device" that plugs into the diagnostic port on the vehicle and into USB on the computer. The three main companies that make these are: Dearborn DPA 4+ or 5, NEXIQ USB-Link, and Noregon DLA_USB.

I've been searching eBay for the older models of these units--my rig is a 1998 with mechanical engine. I have the square Allison plug: https://allison.noregon.com/webstore/c-12-cec1-cable.aspx

All these translators are in the $500-900 range new. An older one would work, but unless it is 25-50% the price, it's better to get the modern one for compatibility. I'll keep an eye on eBay.

Older software versions are usually available on eBay for a easy price, but translators are pricey. Has anybody more frugal solutions to the translator?

For me, it's a worthwhile investment as I have some plans to use it (gear change, shift point change, etc). I'd bring it on the road and help out other people with it as well--and maybe get a couple $$ here and there to ease the pain of investment...haha.

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #1 – July 18, 2014, 03:36:36 am

Why I like the VMSpc or other Silverleaf reader, full time scan of all the engine & Allison data that I might be interested in.

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #2 – July 18, 2014, 06:57:43 am

Quote from: Dave M – July 18, 2014, 03:36:36 am

Why I like the VMSpc or other Silverleaf reader, full time scan of all the engine & Allison data that I might be interested in.

I was going to recommend VMSpc as well, then I realized krush wants to make programming changes to the shift points, etc. Not something most of us would/should do but an experienced mechanic would.

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #3 – July 18, 2014, 11:09:51 am

Krush,

The VMSpc is a slick monitor and is great for mounting on the dash to keep track of all your engine operating parameters. There is also an free app/apk called RV Dash that allows the same functions and is bluetooth so an iPad or Droid can read the display anywhere bluetooth will go. The downside is the price at about $700 when you add in the required hardware. RV Dash on the App Store on iTunes

I think what you are looking for is a reader like the Pro-Link 9000 along with the cartridge for your transmission. Nexiq is one of the names on the reader along with Kent-Moore, MPSI, etc. You just buy the cartridge for your electronic engine, electronic Allison, electronic air brakes, etc. The word here is electronic as it won't do anything for mechanical engines, trans, etc.

The new style Nexiq readers can read all the codes and have all the different manufacturers built in but the software to make changes adds a lot more $$ to the price.

So what I did was search ebay for a Detroit Diesel DDEC II and Allison cartridge for our U300. They were priced up to $1300 for the cartridge alone plus a ton for the reader. After a short search through the listings, I found a reader and two cartridges for the DDEC II & III for about $130 and then found another reader with Ford, GM and Mopar cartridges for about $60 and bought still another DDEC I & II cartridge for $80. There have not been Allison cartridges priced right yet. You can see, the Ford, GM, Toyota, etc, cartridges are only $10 but big rig cartridges add a lot to the price.

The Pro-Link 9000 allows you to not only read all the codes, fuel mileage, boost pressure, fuel pressure, fuel temperature, test each injector, change idle speed, etc, etc, etc. but to also make changes on the engine and Allison transmission but you need the correct cartridge. I am also going to buy an Allison cartridge but have not been able to find a deal on one yet. They do make cartridges for Cummins and CATS. Once you have the reader, you just pop in the correct cartridge and then use the adapter to fit the plug in the cab. And, yes, you can keep it plugged in driving down the road.

Rather than giving any more details, go to the search on ebay. Finding one is harder than it seems as there have been so many names. I really had to work to find the cartridge I wanted. Start here: pro link 9000 | eBay

Here is the Allison cartridge for the World Transmission. $425 takes it out of the real deal category but still cheap if you had to take it to a shop. Nexiq Mpsi Pro Link Allison World Transmission Diagnostic Cartridge J 38500 302a

Good for purchasing a coach as you can see the mileage, the gallons of fuel used since new along with the MPG and the code number, date, length of time of any fault code that has been stored. Allison cartridges also have multiple functions but like I said, I haven't been able to find one for a reasonable hobby/owner price.

Here is a video of a new Detroit twin turbo for a RV. Note the Pro-Link 9000 he is using on the table: Detroit Diesel 6V92TA DECCII twin turbo 400 HP first start up Australia -

Pierce

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #4 – July 18, 2014, 04:15:19 pm

Thanks for the information. The Prolink 9000 is pretty old and IMHO, overpriced. Since the early 2000's it's pretty much been translator + OEM software on a laptop.

Since my original post I did some more research on truck repair forums. It's pretty much true that everybody says getting OEM laptop software is the best way to go. A generic scan tool can pull codes and get information, but it will be limited on changing parameters.

As mentioned, VMSpec is of not the correct tool.

I think I may have come across a solution. I'll share when I try it out.

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #5 – July 18, 2014, 05:21:38 pm

Super if you can find an inexpensive solution. Yes, the 9000 came out in the early 1990s but at $130 for the reader and the cartridge (actually two), it was in the sweet spot for the budget and is perfect for what I used it for. Only OEM software I have seen is really expensive unless pirated and still can't raise the HP.

Only (unless hacked) a engine dealership can turn the horsepower up over maximum stock for that engine family or it violates EPA laws. The dealership has to connect the engine serial number to the mothership computer at MTU, Cummins or CAT. That's why some have used fire dept engine serial numbers so the ECU could be flashed for higher HP. Don't know Allison's policy on changing shift points or lockup points or if it might violate EPA emissions.

Ideal would be bluetooth from the OEM plug to an iPad or Droid. Looking forward to the results of your research.

Pierce

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #6 – July 18, 2014, 06:48:41 pm

Pierce,

For clarification, do you use the Prolink 9000 to access your DDEC ECM only? And you do not have an allison cartridge....your transmission may be hydraulic controlled without an TCM anyway.

I'm not that interested in HP changes for any engine (mine is mechanical anyway!). From my understanding, all the OEM software packages, with the correct access, will allow all parameters to be changed EXCEPT HP rating (as you stated). There are ways to do custom tunes and change HP and etc etc, but who really needs more HP on the RV? These engines are cranked up pretty high as it is.

Each OEM may have certain requirements to allow access to do parameter changes. For example, Allison requires one to take a class and provide proof of completion before they will provide a code to do programing on the TCM's with the DOC program. That is the official rules--for information.

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #7 – July 18, 2014, 07:15:59 pm

Quote from: krush – July 18, 2014, 06:48:41 pm

Pierce,

For clarification, do you use the Prolink 9000 to access your DDEC ECM only? And you do not have an allison cartridge....your transmission may be hydraulic controlled without an TCM anyway.

No, I have the keypad HT746 ATEC with the computer mounted on the outside bulkhead in front of the driver. I could use the Allison cartridge nicely. I would like to be able to shift into 4th at a lower RPM if using light throttle. I have always driven Detroits with a manual trans and like deciding when to shift.

In reviewing specs on the later NEXIQ, I can't see it will do anything mine won't do. It just has the all the engines built in but is read only unless you spend an arm and leg for the CD. They will display on a laptop. My feeling is all the diagnostics will move away from laptops to bluetooth tablets and in fact, has already started to go that way.

Pierce

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #8 – July 18, 2014, 07:38:16 pm

Amazing, it appears that with these tools you can reprogram the engine fuel delivery & timing making much higher horsepower. My guess this may be possible on the older series engines. And would doubt the newer series would allow such games.
Tell me what the upper limit you can reach on the 6V-92T for example. Shock me

Also, the VMSpc certainly would never be confused with a reprogramer but is neat as a watchdog

Some of us have a strong non hot rod runner, not looking to hot rod a weaker engine, no idea why one would want more power than the engine was designed for.
Dave M

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #9 – July 18, 2014, 08:40:04 pm

Dave,

The diagnostic tools are for the late engines (about 1989 and later) where EPA wants a hand in everything. I don't know how the marine guys pump up the HP but they probably go around the requirement to have the DDEC flashed from the mothership. The fire dept ladder truck in the YouTube dyno stand was running 520 horsepower with a DDEC II 6V-92TA. Boats seem to be averaging about 525HP with some mechanical, some DDEC, with a few twin turbo at 615HP but a much shorter lifespan. TBO with 520HP has to be much shorter, maybe 2500 hours from what I have read.

The 92 series was the first HD diesel with electronic controls (DDEC I) and Detroit's 60 series was the first HD diesel using only electronic controls. Foretravel Detroits are all DDEC II.

OK, enough of that. So, my Pro-Link 9000 is capable of changing some engine settings aside from about 20 read only features:

1. Change DDR. EEPROM password 2. Add/Delete 5 minute idle shutdown 3. Change droop 4. Set the initial speed if cruise control switches are used as a power take-off option 5. Set PTO droop 6. Enable/Disable cruise control 7. Add/Delete a vehicle speed sensor 8. Change road speed limit 9. Change cruise control speed limit 10. Add/Delete engine shutdown feature

The best feature is the ability to check all injectors when the engine is running. Once it establishes a base pulse width, it will, either at idle or 1000 RPM, cut out each injector and then increase fuel to the others (change pulse width) and measure the difference so either a bad injector or weak cylinder can be isolated. It will automatically do this or it can be used manually.

Basically, this tool bypasses the hundreds of hours it takes to learn how to figure out what's wrong with a Detroit (or Cummins, CAT) and after reading the short manual, plugging it in and turning it on, even an idiot like me can figure out what's wrong or just what the engine's history has been. Slick! So, when the seller says "it's only got 30,000 miles" or "it averages 14 mpg" you can just plug it in to the DDEC connector under the dash and the mileage, overall MPG, gallons used since new, time/date/duration of fault codes and a long list of other items will show up. Good to have operating on a test drive too. By changing cartridges, it will do the same for any electronic Cummins or CAT (or MANN, Volvo, etc)

But, no, it can't flash the EEPROM for more power by changing the timing or changing the pulse width for more fuel. Probably a bunch of hackers that can do it but no one wants to admit it in print that I could find.

Pierce

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #10 – July 19, 2014, 02:11:09 am

Pierce,
Many thanks for the description, yes, understand the listed features and abilities and for sure the computer history data, which is also available from the Silverleaf readout. Certainly unable to change the time delays etc.
My Cummins computer is only for the generator and switch features & controls, mostly required when a board gets smoked, the new boards come in a confused setting requiring the computer to turn on the board AND set correct features for the specific unit.
The engine data computer is available to our shop, I am not willing to jump the required $$$$$ hoops for it as our need for the Cummins engine ECM data is seldom.

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #11 – July 20, 2014, 12:53:33 am

Thanks to Pierce's post about finding a used one I bought a Pro-Link 9000 reader on Ebay for $160 with with the cartridge for DDEC II and III version 5.0. Also included were the necessary connectors for the DDL and a carrying case. No manual was included for this version but Pierce kindly sent me a cd with the instructions for version 3.0 which includes DDEC I and II. With that so far I have been able to easily check for active codes and clear all historic codes. The only active code showing now is 25 which is the code for no codes detected by DDECII since the last time the codes were cleared.

Engine/Trip data shows:
Total Gal 11848.2
Engine Hrs 2130.6
Fuel MPG 7.6
VSG Hrs 606.8 (don't know what this means)
Trip Miles 62481.3
Trip Gal 8191.9

I used the reset Trip Data function which resets the Trip miles, Trip Gal and Fuel MPG all to zero leaving the historical Gal and Eng Hrs intact.

The hour meter in the back shows 2369.7, a difference of 239.1 hrs more than the DDECII hours. Could this be due to idling when the coach is not moving or just an inaccurate meter?

I won't use the cylinder cutout feature until I can get some advise from someone who has done this test. My first Blackstone Labs oil analysis showed signs of metal and a possible leaky injector. They advised and oil change and another test after 2000 miles. I've since changed the oil and have enough miles driven to warrant another test. The cylinder cutout test should tell me if one of the injectors has a different output.

The shop time saved has already paid for the Pro-Link and I can use it whenever I need to or for a fellow Foretraveler who is in my neck of the woods and has DDEC II.

Jerry aka Murph

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #12 – July 20, 2014, 01:26:58 am

Jerry,

Good question. Would think the readout from the DDEC II would be more accurate.

Good way to tell if an injector is leaking is when you start, the engine will be down a cylinder for a few seconds, blow some white smoke and then pick up the last cylinder with all smoke stopping almost instantly. Once the engine is turned off, the injector leaks fuel into the cylinder and takes a few seconds to get rid of the air and start spraying correctly but the pattern may not be as it should be with tearing or solid stream instead of a nice even dispersion. Winter is worse. Might try injector cleaner. The injectors are expensive not like the dirt cheap mechanical type so hopefully not the problem. Your MPG seems slightly low so an injector might be a possibility or the last owner might have done a lot of short trips or city driving. Try setting the 9000 on turbo boost pressure and see what the reading is at full throttle on a hill.

Let us know what the lab has to say on the second test.

I have not had time to document the injector cut out test but will post it when I get a chance next week with photos.

$160 is less than a good OBD II read only tester at the auto parts store. A no brainer at that price. Glad you like it. I keep looking for a Cummins, CAT or Allison cartridge for under $100 but no luck so far.

Pierce

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #13 – July 20, 2014, 07:29:29 am

Jerry, pardon my ignorance, but if I am reading your numbers correctly, there is some 3000+ gallons of fuel used not on trips. I don't understand where?

?? generator, aqua hot

?? I know, curiosity kills a lot of cats...

Larry

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #14 – July 20, 2014, 02:35:07 pm

Quote from: ohsonew – July 20, 2014, 07:29:29 am

Jerry, pardon my ignorance, but if I am reading your numbers correctly, there is some 3000+ gallons of fuel used not on trips. I don't understand where??? generator, aqua hot ?? I know, curiosity kills a lot of cats...

Larry

Larry,

The trip data can be reset at any time back to zero. You can do this for every separate trip. The historic data is total gal and engine hrs since the coach was new. It looks like mine had not been reset for a long time. The Fuel MPG resets to 256 and then resets to zero when you start it up again and travel somewhere.

Total miles on my odometer show 85641. Dividing that by total gals of 11848 gives an historical mpg of 7.2 overall. I hope to get that number up in the future with a recent oil and filters change including an air filter and recent transmission service. I'm also on my third bottle of Howe's diesel treatment and I have a noticed a significant improvement in both the engine and the generator. Tires and other factors will effect MPG but at least with the trip reset I should be able to get more accurate measurements than by using the number of gals pumped into the tank on each fillup.

The cylinder cutout test should be an excellent way to monitor the injectors for performance as well as many other factors such turbo boost pressure measured using the Pro-Link 9000 that Pierce stated. I'm still learning from the guys that have the real world experience on this great forum.

Hope this helps....I'm curious too!

Jerry

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #15 – July 20, 2014, 03:02:16 pm

Quote from: coastprt – July 20, 2014, 12:53:33 am

The hour meter in the back shows 2369.7, a difference of 239.1 hrs more than the DDECII hours. Could this be due to idling when the coach is not moving or just an inaccurate meter?

The Hobbs hour meter is powered by an oil pressure switch on the engine. The switch on my coach failed such that it always stayed on even with the engine off. It also powers the shift selector to the transmission. For about a month I noticed the red LED on the shifter panel before I figured out what was wrong. Maybe this happened with the previous owner on your coach?

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #16 – July 20, 2014, 05:58:52 pm

Thanks John I think you hit the nail on the head. Just recently I noticed the hi-low fan switch was disconnected resulting in the hi-speed default. I reconnected it and it works just fine. I don't know if the PO had replaced the oil pressure switch but that would account for the higher number of engine hrs at the Hobbs hour meter. Are you talking about the Do Not Shift light on the shift panel? Makes sense to me. Another reason to have a Pro-link to see the actual engine hours from the DDEC.

Jerry

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #17 – July 20, 2014, 07:26:06 pm

Thanks Jerry. I appreciate the insight.

Larry

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #18 – July 21, 2014, 12:07:35 am

Quote from: coastprt – July 20, 2014, 05:58:52 pm

Are you talking about the Do Not Shift light on the shift panel?

It's been awhile, so I can't be sure but I thought it was just the red LED on the N button.

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #19 – July 21, 2014, 01:44:18 am

You are correct John!

I just noticed the led for the N button was lit up with the ignition switch off and now I know why. Over the last couple of weeks I have been using a jumper on the oil pressure switch to to stop the chattering of the ATEC relays under the dash. James Triana told me if a jumper stopped the chattering the switch was bad. I used it all last week on a 600 mile round trip to Oak Mountain state park in Birmingham and didn't want to listen to the chatter all the way there and back. Today I also noticed the Hobbs meter was running with the ignition off and was getting power from the jumpered switch. I had already replaced the switch and the new one didn't stop the chatter. I took the jumper wire off and the N light went out and the Hobbs meter stopped running. The new 15psi switch I put in is either faulty or something else. Billy Jack told me me the original switch was a 4psi. It looks like someone had replaced the original 4psi with a 15psi and it worked. I'll go back to a 4psi and see if that will solve the mystery.

Do you know if there is a way to reset the Hobbs meter so I can make it coincide with the engine hours shown on the DDEC?

Many thanks my friend,

Jerry

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #20 – July 21, 2014, 10:25:19 pm

Quote from: coastprt – July 21, 2014, 01:44:18 am

Do you know if there is a way to reset the Hobbs meter so I can make it coincide with the engine hours shown on the DDEC?

Unplugged the meter. Then when the engine hours exceed the Hobbs hours at some date in the future, hook up 12 volts to the Hobbs and set a buzz timer for the difference so you can switch it back at the right time. I really haven't found the hour meter to be of much use - I do maintenance by miles and date.

BTW, I replaced my switch with a 5 psi unit - that's supposed to be the minimum pressure for our engine at idle. I suppose 4 psi is better because they probably aren't all that accurate.

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #21 – July 22, 2014, 09:41:43 pm

Thanks John,

I'll just unplug it and wait till the DDEC engine hours catch up with the Hobbs meter. I now own a Pro-Link 9000 and can check the correct engine hours anytime.

Jerry

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #22 – August 18, 2014, 02:01:11 am

Quote from: JohnFitz – July 21, 2014, 10:25:19 pm

BTW, I replaced my switch with a 5 psi unit - that's supposed to be the minimum pressure for our engine at idle. I suppose 4 psi is better because they probably aren't all that accurate.

John,

I replaced the 15psi oil pressure switch with a 4psi and that did the trick. I should have listened to Billy Jack and went according to specs from the build sheet. No more relay chatter. I also replaced the oil pressure gauge sender after I broke one of the wire connections while removing the oil pressure switch. All is good and the oil pressure gauge reading is spot on with the readout from the Pro-Link.

Jerry

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #23 – July 19, 2015, 04:21:22 pm

Here's some pics of how I used my Pro-Link 9000 on a recent trip to Birmingham (631 Miles). It was plugged in for the whole trip and lays nicely out of the way on the dash within easy reach. It's not much bigger than a Palm Pilot and is not a distraction when driving. With the Snap Shot feature you can set a trigger such as any code to start recording data to help diagnose a problem if one arises. With that feature you can print out the data later on the thermal printer. No active codes on this trip and I have already cleared the historical codes and reset the trip data.

I used the DDEC II & III ver. 5.0 cartridge and scrolling the data list was able to view at a glance fuel rate GPH, Fuel MPG, Vehicle Speed MPH, and Cruise Set MPH. The pic shows how it looks when not moving ( MPG defaults to 256!). I set the cruise between 60 and 62 most of the time to try and maximize the GPH and safely tow my Zuki. With the Jake on and the cruise control set, rpms were around 1600 and I didn't worry about trying to pass other cars and trucks and still made good time. The road speed matched perfectly with the GPS and trip mileage matched with the odometer. The dash speedometer was ahead by 2 mph.

Fuel MPG has improved from 7.6 to 8.5 (+12%) average since I changed the engine and transmission oil and filters. I also changed the air filter( Napa Gold) and have been using Howes Diesel treatment and injector cleaner. I don't think there's much room for improvement here unless I'm going downhill all the time! At least I don't have to estimate or exaggerate the true mpg. The historical mpg can still be obtained by using the odometer miles divided by the total gallons.

Of course at any time you can scroll down the data list when moving to look at other parameters such as coolant temp, fuel temp, oil pressure, turbo boost, etc. and not rely just on the dash gauges. Personally, I like the unobstructed view when driving and can easily hold the Pro-Link with one hand ( not texting!) It's old technology but very rugged and in some ways probably better than some of the new tech because of it's programming capabilities and less expensive. I would like to upgrade to a DDEC III ECM but probably too expensive. It allows for injector calibration to equalize the outputs of the engine injectors and optimize cylinder power balancing.

Jerry

Re: Heavy Duty Scan tools for engine/allison (not OBDII)

Reply #24 – July 19, 2015, 09:09:57 pm

There are no more DDECIII Ecm's available. They have been replaced with a DDECIV Ecm. The DDECIII had some issues that were resolved with the DDECIV. The DDECIV will run fine on the DDECIII platform. If you switch from DDECII to the DDECIII platform you have to use a conversion harness for it to connect and add a few sensors.The added benifits really don't justify the cost. The DDECII injectors do not have calibration codes so in order to use them you would need to replace with DDECIII or DDECIV injectors . All the codes do is even out any imbalance at idle,so it will be smooth,once you come off idle the do not apply anymore. On my series 60 I don't see any change at all.Your still running a 6V92 so there is really not much you can do unless you can figure out how to cool it. My95 pete with a 12.7 series 60 puts 600 and some change to the ground But I have a time with temp in the summer grossing the weights I pull. My ecm guy has a dump truck with a 12.7 series 60 putting close to 1200 hp to the ground,daily driver,but heat is an issue. My Ecm Guy is in the blue dump truck, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GwPY_3vPmA

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