Allison retarder

Topic: Allison retarder (Read 2050 times) previous topic - next topic

Allison retarder

August 17, 2014, 10:34:33 pm

Good evening everyone, I have a 1996 u-270 with the 8.3 cummins I'm wondering if there is an upgrade to my retarder? I have a simple on/of rocker switch on the left side of the drivers seat living just south of Denver with most of my trips headed west over the pass (Eisenhower, Vail) I would love to have as much brake/retarder power as possible is there an JOYSTICK upgrade I might be missing out on ? I'm also looking to add exhaust brake to the mix, love my exhaust brake on my dodge 5.9 cummins usually don't even touch service brakes going down the pass. any thoughts suggestions? thanks Bill

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #1 – August 17, 2014, 11:02:32 pm

You can definitely add a joystick control to your retarder set up, but it doesn't really give you more retarding action at the maximum setting. It does however, give you six different retarder settings that do not rely on you applying the service brakes with your foot. My understanding is that with the retarder switch on, slightly applying the service brakes ads A little bit of transmission retarder to the mix, Applying the brakes harder brings it up a notch, and finally more pressure on the service breaks maxes out the retarder assist. Having the joystick available gives you the option to add in six different degrees of retarder that will apply whenever you let off the throttle (while the retarder switch is on of course). The more retarder is engaged, the more the transmission fluid will heat up. I find for normal driving on city streets having the retarder in the first or second position on the joystick allows me to drive mostly with the throttle just using the service breaks when coming to a complete stop. I love the flexibility of having the joystick, and I love having the retarder even more! Some people on this forum of using the service breaks much more and the retarder less in normal driving. Well that does make some sense to me, I find their locations when I am using the service brakes in conjunction with the retarder enough to keep them moving freely, or at least that's my theory... your mileage may vary

Don

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #2 – August 17, 2014, 11:48:13 pm

Correct. Search this forum and you should find out how. . As I recall, it is a simple plug in unit. Very worth adding.

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #3 – August 18, 2014, 12:32:31 am

We added the joystick to our 1997 U295 with C8.3 engine. Went from the Eisenhower Tunnel to Golden without using the brakes. Traveled with the trucks and modulated downhill speeds with the retarder and gear selection.

We have recently traveled through Alaska, Canada, and northwest US. The joystick was very useful for controlling speed on downhill runs.

I leave the joystick at the "0" position for normal driving. I do leave the retarder switch "On" to couple its actions to the service brakes.

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #4 – August 18, 2014, 12:43:55 am

Quote from: acousticart – August 17, 2014, 11:02:32 pm

I find for normal driving on city streets having the retarder in the first or second position on the joystick

Don,

Is that first or second from the front or the rear?

Thanks,

Trent

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #5 – August 18, 2014, 12:54:42 am

Must be different methods of the retarder working, on my 2001 320, if you put the stick in ANY position but full forward (OFF/full auto), meaning any selected position rearward of OFF, any time you take foot off the throttle, the retarder is activated. If you add brake pedal pressure, the more effective the retarder is.
Reading some described info, my coach must be totally wrong, sure different than others, but I am used to it.

Dave M

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #6 – August 18, 2014, 01:17:29 am

That's how mine works. On the highway I keep the joystick full forward so I only activate the retarder with the brake pedal. This also keeps it from turning off the cruise control on downgrades. In city traffic or stop and go Highway traffic I pull the joystick back two or three stops. This gets it started as soon as I take my foot off the gas, giving a head start on breaking before my foot reaches the brake pedal.

Downgrades are a joy, playing with the joystick and gear selection to modulate speed, until someone pulls too close in front of me, either doing 30, or, after passing me, slams on the brakes. Then I pull the joystick all the way back while stomping hard on the brake pedal. Great fun.

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #7 – August 18, 2014, 01:29:32 am

No Dave, I guess I didn't describe it accurately. Letting the throttle off with joystick in any position other than full forward engages the retarder to whatever notch the joystick is pulled back to on our coach. That is what I meant to say when I said first or second notch from full forward position allows me to drive in city traffic without applying the service brakes until time to come to a full stop. Sometimes of course it is necessary to pull back more on the joystick and or add the service brakes to whatever degree necessary to maintain a safe distance from the vehicle ahead.
Don

Quote from: Dave M – August 18, 2014, 12:54:42 am

Must be different methods of the retarder working, on my 2001 320, if you put the stick in ANY position but full forward (OFF/full auto), meaning any selected position rearward of OFF, any time you take foot off the throttle, the retarder is activated. If you add brake pedal pressure, the more effective the retarder is.
Reading some described info, my coach must be totally wrong, sure different than others, but I am used to it.
Dave M

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #8 – August 18, 2014, 08:30:11 am

Don said: "You can definitely add a joystick control to your retarder set up"

Anyone know where to get it and how much it costs?

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #9 – August 18, 2014, 08:38:03 am

Quote from: Tom Lang – August 18, 2014, 01:17:29 am

That's how mine works. On the highway I keep the joystick full forward so I only activate the retarder with the brake pedal. This also keeps it from turning off the cruise control on downgrades. In city traffic or stop and go Highway traffic I pull the joystick back two or three stops. This gets it started as soon as I take my foot off the gas, giving a head start on breaking before my foot reaches the brake pedal.

Downgrades are a joy, playing with the joystick and gear selection to modulate speed, until someone pulls too close in front of me, either doing 30, or, after passing me, slams on the brakes. Then I pull the joystick all the way back while stomping hard on the brake pedal. Great fun.

My joystick is reversed compare to yours. Full rearward is my zero position. Plus the lever is relocated in a reinforced small panel installed in the left panel and the operating button place next to it.

Also mine is wired to work on cruise control with the brake lights coming on when in operation. Retarder engagement turns on the brake lights and does not kick off the cruise control if being used. Like cheating

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #10 – August 18, 2014, 10:29:59 am

Quote from: Dave M – August 18, 2014, 12:54:42 am

... if you put the stick in ANY position but full forward (OFF/full auto), meaning any selected position rearward of OFF, any time you take foot off the throttle, the retarder is activated. If you add brake pedal pressure, the more effective the retarder is.
...
Dave M

Same behavior as our aftermarket installation.

Ours does not turn on brake lights, nor disengage cruise control. If cruise control is engaged and joystick is not in "zero position," retarder will engage when cruise moves throttle to "zero position," as on a significant downhill run.

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #11 – August 18, 2014, 12:11:55 pm

Quote from: Duane Budd – August 18, 2014, 08:30:11 am

Don said: "You can definitely add a joystick control to your retarder set up"

Anyone know where to get it and how much it costs?

A link on Barry's site on Foretravel history thru the years mentioned it was an upgrade.
(thanks to the mod that found and added this following link

)
Installing Joy Stick Retarder Control

Knowing what I know now, having enjoyed mine for the last 16 months, I suggest it is money well spent.

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #12 – August 18, 2014, 01:03:36 pm

Upgrading by adding an Allison retard joystick requires an 'optional' relay mounted near the two brake light air pressure switches, normally mounted on front wall of left front compartment. Relay coil is energized when retard relay on front 12-volt breaker panel in front of co-pilot is closed by Allison computer. The optional relay normally open points are wired in parallel with original brake air pressure switches.

Retard closes original retard relay, which closes optional relay which turns on brake lights which turns off cruise control (if on). Putting a switch on the wire from original retard relay to optional relay will allow driver to control when retard turns does not turn on brake lights, keeping cruise control system on.

Some who have added joy stick did not add optional relay, which means their retard does not turn on brake lights, which means their retard never turns cruise off.

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #13 – August 18, 2014, 03:36:58 pm

Call FT parts. Was less than $1,000

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #14 – August 18, 2014, 09:30:37 pm

Not that I would or have done it but it would be tempting to mention the fire truck grade antilock air disk brakes and the trans retarder to the bragging kind of SOB owners.

But theirs has prettier paint and fabrics? Mean isn't it. I have seen their lips stop moving mid sentence. Add in the lack of trucks wind sway and they tend to drift away.

Or the non battery power consumption issues they all have. Not fair I know but....

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #15 – August 18, 2014, 11:17:36 pm

This is the parts needed , this place is real reasonable on price. He will also provide you the adapter cable.Call and talk to Ted, he knows Allison's
Regards,Irwin

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #16 – August 22, 2014, 11:47:58 pm

Thanks Irwin,
That was just what the doctor ordered I'll give him a call Monday am. Anyone do a comparison between a trans retarder and a exhaust brake, pros cons ideas thanks everyone for the great help on here. Bill

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #17 – August 26, 2014, 11:40:01 am

Dave, as you describe your joy stick, ours works the same and I think most work the same as yours. Forward position, retard off, any other position, retard on with increasing strength as the stick is positioned toward rear. No retard if throttle is not at zero position. Brake pedal puts retard in 2, 4 or 6 position, depending on much the pedal is pressed, with almost anything other than very light braking, full retard is activated.

Some joy sticks were install "backwards" with off at full rear position. It is just a matter of loosening joy stick top nut and rotating joy stick 180 degrees. Both ways work.

The reason the retard turns off the cruise control is that the retard turns on a relay that turns on the brake lights. Running a wire from this relay to a dash switch would control when you want brake lights with retard, keeping cruise engaged on those downhills that bring the throttle to zero position.

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #18 – June 12, 2020, 04:01:20 pm

Ready comments on how this is a plug and play install, there's nothing else to do? Put in the parts and your on your way?
Sagre

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #19 – June 12, 2020, 05:53:27 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – August 18, 2014, 08:38:03 am

Also mine is wired to work on cruise control with the brake lights coming on when in operation. Retarder engagement turns on the brake lights and does not kick off the cruise control if being used. Like cheating

That's how ours works as well. No cruise cancellation while retarding in position 1-6 and switch to on.

And some say, I'm retarding a lot more as I get older.

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #20 – June 12, 2020, 08:25:50 pm

Quote from: Sagre – June 12, 2020, 04:01:20 pm

1. Ready comments on how this is a plug and play install, there's nothing else to do?
2. Put in the parts and your on your way?
Sagre

Steven,

1. You will have to drill a hole in a blank switch cover that is on the left side switch console. The trans ECM is not effected as you have the 3 stage system now. That is if the retarder is tuned you have 3 stages of retarding depending on how hard you push on the brake pedal.

2. Yes.

You will need the rheostat Allison # 295-21372. On some coaches the wiring is already there and some you will need the Y cable. You will need to pull the console apart and look down in the wire loom to see if the wiring plug is there. If it is hanging there just plug in the rheostat and put the console back together. If the wiring isn't there I will have to look up the part number you will need.

Mike

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #21 – June 12, 2020, 09:14:22 pm

Thank you Mike. If it's wired for it, will it work as described in these post such as when the cruise is on and the brake lites coming on when the retarder is activated? Also can I call you for advice when we get started on the project?
Steve
sagre301@gmail.com

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #22 – June 12, 2020, 09:53:58 pm

I would also suggest checking eBay for the joystick part. They were significantly cheaper than anyone else. But the harness ( from FOT ) fit perfect and was reasonable.

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #23 – June 12, 2020, 11:03:58 pm

I bought harness and joystick from FOT. Had to dig around a little bit to find the harness connection. No relays were added. Minor fab of mounting plate as per Beam Alarm post. I went to Tractor Supply, bought big washer and trimmed edges down. One of the best updates to coach as I'm out West all the time. Depending on which way you mount joystick, whoa is either back or forward. 1998 C8.3.

Re: Allison retarder

Reply #24 – June 13, 2020, 06:00:57 am

Quote from: Sagre – June 12, 2020, 09:14:22 pm

If it's wired for it, will it work as described in these post such as when the cruise is on and the brake lites coming on when the retarder is activated?

Steven,

That will depend on the build number of you coach but with it being a '97 the relay and pressure switches should be there. Open the first door on the drivers side (the one where you fill the washer tank) There you should find a relay and 2 pressure switches mounted on the same wall as the washer tank. That is what these items are for.
Sure
Mike

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