Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

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Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

August 23, 2014, 01:27:26 am

Yesterday we took our coach the 35 miles to Quincy, WA and had a Precision Metals guy look at our Torsialastic suspension with an eye toward seeing if their mod for Safari coaches would translate over to the U225 and U240 Foretravels.

There is good news and bad news:

The good news is that they have parts for these suspension systems;

The bad news is that it would take a complete redesign of the product to make it work on the U225 or U240. They might be willing to do that redesign if there are enough customers out there.

Good news for us is that we have no sag in our rear suspension and it looks ok to them.

Craig

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #1 – August 23, 2014, 09:02:35 am

Thanks, Craig,

What is different about the fit of the Foretravel vs Safari with Torsilastic suspension? Is it just the upper mount? If so, how complex can it be?

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #2 – August 23, 2014, 11:42:19 am

Just my 2 cents. After looking at it on the 240 we had (and Geoff's 240) there is very little room for a bag system to go and if I remember correctly would be very close to tyres. I have not given up on designing a bag "helper" system just a few things came in the way and will definitly get back to looking at it when Geoff returns in the future with their coach and we get under it.
Craig, did they come up with what they feel needs to be done, or, just that design they use would not work??
JohnH

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #3 – August 23, 2014, 02:13:40 pm

Quote from: John Haygarth – August 23, 2014, 11:42:19 am

Craig, did they come up with what they feel needs to be done, or, just that design they use would not work??

John... the main issue is room. The Safari is a box on a frame and the Foretravel is more monocoque in design. So there is only about 9 inches of space for an air bag, mounts, and everything. They thought they could do something though... and would like to have my coach there for a few days to explore it. The problem for them is time... they are very busy. Not sure how much of a market is out there is also an issue.

There was a Safari in there with a busted up battery slide and they were going to get to him in a day or so.

Nice guys, had a competent feel about them. No "gee, this looks hard" BS... just crawled under, checked it all out, told me thay have parts (I suspect they manufacture them) but that our coaches are entirely different than the Safari.

Craig

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #4 – August 23, 2014, 04:25:06 pm

Exactly as I saw it- lack of room.
I will attack it next spring with Geoffs coach and sure I will have something to put on and test.
JohnH

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #5 – August 23, 2014, 05:05:27 pm

John... I expect I'll do whatever you do. Mine isn't in trouble yet but I like to stay ahead. Besides, it helps me be more like you for when I grow up.

Craig

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #6 – August 23, 2014, 07:15:31 pm

Many years ago while I was a tech at Foretravel of Florida, we had a customer that bought a new u24 with the 3208 Cat and found the rear end would drag when he went into his driveway. He designed some brackets and put some air bags back there and a 12 volt solenoid that he could activate that would inflate the bags and raise the rear of the coach enough to allow him to get it into and out of his driveway. I do not have any pictures of what he did , but was not a real big thing for him. He was a professor at a college in engineering. On his previous coach a Winnebago, he built a digital dash, this back about 1988 0r 89. After Foretravel sold the company store, he was so upset with them that he bought a Monaco Diplomat,1998. I know that for John, it will not be a real big issue. He only used the air bags as an assist, not replacement for the torsilastic. suspension

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #7 – August 23, 2014, 07:32:32 pm

Ron, that is my idea too just an assist, not replacement. I believe that is what is happening for the Safari's too. Instead of replacing the Torsilastic beams etc for the heavier ones this (hopefully) will give new life to them for a fraction of the cost(rear only)
John H

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #8 – August 23, 2014, 07:41:23 pm

The rear is where the extra lift is needed, not the front. I have been racking my brain to try to remember how he mounted the air bags and think that he made a plate that he attached with the u bolts that hold the torsiolastic unit in place which be under the axle. They were heavy plate steel but I can't remember what he used for the top plate and how it was attached to the body or frame, but am sure you will figure it out.

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #9 – August 23, 2014, 11:37:17 pm

Ron, I do not believe the front has been mentioned as we have always been referring to the rear.
yes we will figure it out just not been high on the list so far, but it is a pain if the kick down jacks cannot "kick down" due to rear being low when on uneven ground etc.
JohnH

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #10 – August 23, 2014, 11:59:46 pm

There is enough of room/space to put/add airbags to assist the Torsialastic suspension. Mine had no problem so we did not do the airbags, we installed Sumo shocks, with it goal was to manage the sway. My U225 rides quite nice now.
We welded the Sumo shocks on to upper beam right over the Torsialastic suspension; in the rear there are 4 of them (black) and in the front 2 of them (yellow). I thought i had posted pictures sometime ago. I need to check but i can raise the coach enough with HWH leveler to take few more pictures. I had asked my friend who is an suspension expert to get rid of the Torsialistic suspension and fabricate and fit airbags if it was necessary (last year) After he looked at it this way and that way he determined that the Torsialistics on my U225 health and decided to just help it, hence the Sumo shocks. We believe the Sumo shocks will also now prolong the life of the Torsialistic suspension.
Dave Cobb had a U225 & he drove mine after we installed the Sumo shocks ... he said " had mine rode like this i would have never sold it"
I sure enjoy the way it roles down the road and DW approves .... she did not before Sumo shocks.

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #11 – August 24, 2014, 12:37:03 am

Quote from: propman – August 23, 2014, 11:59:46 pm

I sure enjoy the way it roles down the road and DW approves .... she did not before Sumo shocks.

I have to say that my U225 can be an SOB (not "some other brand") in wind. A 400 mile return to home trip along the Columbia River Gorge on I-84 flat wore me out. I have been thinking that new shocks are in the near future for this rig. So if you can get more pics and maybe some measurements then I might be able to get that done. I like anything that will prolong the life of the torsialastic bars.

Craig

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #12 – August 24, 2014, 11:29:21 am

We bought our first Foretravel, a '93 U225, in Mesa, AZ and learned how to drive it on the way home to Philly in Nov of '07. About a year later we took it to Nac for routine service on a lot of things we had learned about on this Forum. One of those was new shocks! We had Koni Gold shocks installed all around, new tires, balancing and adjustment done. The unit already had a Steer Safe installed by the previous owner. Having new shocks and tires made a HUGE difference. Oh! We also met Brett Wolfe in the parking lot, and he checked our ride height and took a look at our suspension and taught us a few things about the coach. Dianne Wolfe invited me to see their interior, and I fell in love with the Congoleum Dura-Ceramic Luxury vinyl tile that they used on their floor. THAT was our next project!
Great day!!

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #13 – August 24, 2014, 12:02:33 pm

Al, I am not an expert in any shape or form on shocks etc, butI thought shocks were mainly to control sway and the return downward direction (bouncing) of a vehicle rather than "lifting" it??
If the ride height of the Torsilastic Susp'n is lower than the recognized limit (+ or- a bit) how does a shock "absorber" raise it back up a couple of inches unless the frame is lifted and then the shock is attached thereby actually carrying the weight now, which an air bag does. Did I miss something?
JohnH

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #14 – August 24, 2014, 12:32:42 pm

Hi folks! I bought a U-240 about four years ago. I had not found the forum before then, but knew I wanted a Foretravel. I did not know about the different suspensions or what to look for in possible serious defficiencies in the used coach I was buying. The DW and I flew from Spokane, Washington, to Fort Lauderdale to drive our new to us '93
U-240 Foretravel home. We purchased it sight unseen off of E-Bay....I don't recommend that practice. The gel coat was all faded and the decals were peeling, which did not show up in the pictures. We stopped at Phoenix on the way home to catch the November Nascar race. Fortunately it was a low mileage coach and we had no trouble driving it home.

By this time I had found the forum and started to look for trouble areas in U-240's. Fortunately, no bulkhead issues and there were still shims in the torsilastic suspension

When I raised the coach to the proper 32 in., I was out of shims in the rear, so being a truck driver, I noticed my truck's tag axles had smaller lift bags than the full-sized air bags. They looked to be the proper diameter and height to fit under the coach. The U-240's have a rear swaybar (I don't think the U-225's do). I drilled a hole in the swaybar mount which is one inch thick and appears very sturdy, then installed the bottom of the airbag with a nut on the bottom through the swaybar mount. Then a friend and I built a top mount off the frame of the coach. I ran an airline to each of them so I can adjust individually. I basically use them as helpers for the suspension and after four years have not had to add any air and their has been no sinking in the suspension. I have sinced removed the decals and painted them back on with a full body paint. Still love the coach and plan to retire in a few years....may start full-timing and need a larger coach. Ron

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #15 – August 24, 2014, 12:33:58 pm

John,
I really need to take some pictures & post. The Sumo shocks, they just sit there, perhaps it is best described as they are dampening the ride when they are "reached". What Sumos do is that they take the compression but don't spring it back.
My friend spent quite of bit of time thinking about it before he decided to use the Sumo shocks; he had also driven it for 200+ miles. First based on the instructions he made sure the ride height was correct, by removing 1 or more shims. He had a carte-blanche to do complete new air ride system if he saw it necessary. I just did 4500 miles from TX to OR and back and I did drive on 84 next to the Colombia River ..... Perhaps it was not that windy when I went back and forth but i think there was enough wind to be noticed, flags were flying high ... On my way to Portland (August/2) Saturday evening there was fire across on the WA side. I had no issues ... all our planed and implemented updates had worked. Our U225 has all brand new tires, a steering dampener and the Sumo shocks.

Here are pictures for Sumo's installed; yellow for front & black in the back.

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #16 – August 24, 2014, 12:52:15 pm

Ron,

Would love to see some pictures of your air bags mounted on the sway bar 1" plate.

And Sumos are really SPRINGS, not shocks: http://www.supersprings.com/sumosprings_overview.asp

Shocks basically control bounce (up and down motion). To a much less degree, they also help with sway. But, were you to make a shock designed to control sway, it would be WAY, WAY too stiff over bumps.

Sway bars control sway. And, the further outboard the suspension, the more "build-in) sway control.

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #17 – August 24, 2014, 01:22:28 pm

Hi Brett, I have talked to you in the past on the phone and you were very helpful. Thanks again. I will get some pictures taken then try to post them. Just not that tech savvy. Ron

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #18 – August 24, 2014, 05:27:39 pm

Ron, that would be a great help. May be another way to look at it for sure.
Al, now that you say the ride height was ok and you added these springs I would guess the ride was fine. I was talking about when the ride height cannot be brought up to spec ( or even close to it) by removing shims is when you would need air bags.
The Sumo's would help but not be the total answer IMHO.
JohnH

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #19 – August 24, 2014, 06:35:53 pm

Part of the confusion about ride height (actually inability to achieve correct ride height) is that the U225 is quite a lot lighter on the rear axle than the U240-- The Caterpillar engine and Allison 6 speed are much heavier than the Cummins B and Allison 4 speed.

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #20 – August 24, 2014, 06:40:39 pm

That is an important comment Brett re the weight difference.
John H

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #21 – August 24, 2014, 08:15:11 pm

Hi again, here's some pics of the airbag helper system I came up with. It has been working fine for the last 10,000 miles, one down side is I think the airbags would have to be removed to repair/replace brake cams. The mounting plate is 1" thick and has not bent or been distorted at all. The top mount I could not get a good picture of but it could be installed many number of ways by a good fabricator. The airbags are about 8" in diameter and about 10" fully inflated. I was able to do the whole project for about $300.

Ron

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #22 – August 24, 2014, 08:21:39 pm

Ron, are there 2 bags and any chance of getting a photo from a bit further away so it shows more of the installation
JohnH

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #23 – August 24, 2014, 10:36:15 pm

Thanks, John.

What is the upper U channel (at least that is what it looks like) mounted to and how is it mounted?

Indeed, I would not be worried about using that 1" thick plate as the lower mount-- it is SOLID.

Re: Precision Metals (Quincy, WA) Airbag mod for U225 and U240 Torsionastic

Reply #24 – August 24, 2014, 11:00:53 pm

John you are right with Sumo shocks/springs we were not trying to fix or replace .... but just add some improvement & we were able to do that :-)

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