Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

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Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

September 09, 2014, 04:35:54 pm

I just scheduled service at FOT. In addition to having my calipers expunged of the chassis grease I decided to have the pins cleaned and the helper springs installed. Josh Davis said that Wayne would try and talk me out of using them. Don't know why.

Any ideas/thoughts?

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #1 – September 09, 2014, 04:46:23 pm

Quote from: Harvey Nelson – September 09, 2014, 04:35:54 pm

I just scheduled service at FOT. In addition to having my calipers expunged of the chassis grease I decided to have the pins cleaned and the helper springs installed. Josh Davis said that Wayne would try and talk me out of using them. Don't know why.

Any ideas/thoughts?

We had our helper springs installed this spring. They did try to talk us out of them, but we insisted.

When Josh tried to talk us out of them, he said "yeah, they're supposed to stop the rattle, but we found it doesn't really help and it's not worth the labor". The comment confused me at the time, but after a member here posted about the "anti-rattle" springs being broken off his brake pads, it got me wondering. Perhaps there's confusion at FOT as to what these helper springs Meritor has made available do/are for. They're associated with the calipers and slide pins to prevent dragging, not the anti-rattle springs which are a completely different part..

In any case, there was little-to-no additional cost to install IF you are already having the slide pins cleaned/inspected. We provided our own springs, purchased from FindItParts.

Michelle

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #2 – September 09, 2014, 04:57:58 pm

Michelle is correct. Helper springs are to return the brake pads to "not in contact with rotor" when you release the brakes.

I (and Meritor for that matter) like them.

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #3 – September 09, 2014, 05:03:18 pm

We had an appt. with Wayne last March for alignment and the helper spring install. He told me that all they (springs) were for was to reduce caliper rattle and it would cost me $1200. to install them. So I had him simply do a brake inspection and low and behold the right rear brake pad was almost down to metal.
I told him my understanding was that was what the springs were for, to help eliminate brake drag. His response was "nope, you must have had some road debris get stuck in there" and " I have removed more of those springs than installed."
He really had no interest in installing them.

I still have them and have intentions of installing them myself when the next slide pin inspection is due.

Dean

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #4 – September 09, 2014, 05:08:15 pm

I had them installed when overhauling our brakes recently. They weren't expensive or difficult to install, and our shop just did it without objections. I certainly don't understand the $1200 quote.

On edit: our spring kits cost $35 (2@ $17/ea). I was charged 4 total hours labor for "R/R rotors, pads, helper springs and wheel seals and replace right rear outside bearing and race." My rear rotors had severe heat cracks, so I insisted on the springs because, as I understand things, the pads not releasing is what caused the cracks and I don't want to ever have this happen again (to me, or any subsequent owner).

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #5 – September 09, 2014, 05:17:29 pm

Quote from: Dean & Dee – September 09, 2014, 05:03:18 pm

We had an appt. with Wayne last March for alignment and the helper spring install. He told me that all they (springs) were for was to reduce caliper rattle and it would cost me $1200. to install them. So I had him simply do a brake inspection and low and behold the right rear brake pad was almost down to metal.
I told him my understanding was that was what the springs were for, to help eliminate brake drag. His response was "nope, you must have had some road debris get stuck in there" and " I have removed more of those springs than installed."

Dean,

That confirms that there's a misunderstanding on which springs we are talking about and their purpose. Hopefully FOT updates their info. Frustrating to think there's at least one party who wanted the springs and were talked out of them based on incorrect information.

And not $1200. Labor on ours was $165 on top of the slide pin cleaning (tag axle coach). Parts were $18.xx/per caliper from FindItParts.

Michelle

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #6 – September 09, 2014, 05:30:16 pm

How hard it to check to see if my newest coach already has the springs installed? Picture?

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #7 – September 09, 2014, 05:55:33 pm

Quote from: Michelle – September 09, 2014, 04:46:23 pm

We had our helper springs installed this spring. They did try to talk us out of them, but we insisted.

Michelle,
Who did the work?
I'm not that excited about having Wayne do the work if he is against them.
Thanks

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #8 – September 09, 2014, 06:12:05 pm

Harvey,

Bernd installed my new slide pins and helper springs.

Haden Haskins does my alignment. He trained Wayne and Wayne remembered most of his training.

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #9 – September 09, 2014, 06:25:59 pm

For what it is worth.
I don't know if there are more than one Wayne at FOT but I had an encounter with one Wayne their that left me dollars poorer and shall I say frustrated. I will not let him work on my coach again and management knows why.

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #10 – September 09, 2014, 06:32:53 pm

Quote from: Harvey Nelson – September 09, 2014, 05:55:33 pm

Michelle,
Who did the work?
I'm not that excited about having Wayne do the work if he is against them.

Harvey,

Whoever's team at FOT Terry was on in April; we had it done during the standard brake inspection and slide pin cleaning. I don't see a tech's code on our receipt. Main FOT shop, not Wayne's World (we do like his work on alignments, etc., I think he just got some wrong information about the springs' purpose).

However, if you aren't comfortable with FOT after this, MOT (especially someone like Mike Weaver or Keith Risch) should know about the springs as well. And clearly Bernd Ramspeck is familiar as well (heck, if you're near the point of needing a valve adjustment on the Cummins, maybe schedule all that with Bernd for the same time).

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #11 – September 09, 2014, 07:25:51 pm

Quote from: Michelle – September 09, 2014, 05:17:29 pm

Dean,

That confirms that there's a misunderstanding on the purpose of these springs. Hopefully FOT updates their info. Frustrating to think there's at least one party who wanted the springs and were talked out of them based on incorrect information.

Michelle

I knew at the time that he just plain didn't want to do the job so I didn't push it. A good alternative is any shop that does regular work on fire apparatus. They typically have Meritor brake experience and we have one a few miles from home that said they would install them for about 2 to 3 hours shop time @ $90.00 per hr.

Not knocking Wayne or FOT, like you said Michelle he does a great alignment job and knows the bottom side of these Foretravels as well as anyone could. He just hate's those little springs for some reason.

Dean

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #12 – September 09, 2014, 08:37:35 pm

Well, I do see how the springs can actually reduce rattle because they keep tension on parts that normally would float around.

Lets think about this mechanically. The springs aren't that strong, either. If the caliper is really stuck, who knows if the "helper springs" would actually move it away.

With that said, I hard to replace a rear rotor because the inside pad wore away. Helper springs were not installed. I put helper springs on that wheel and when I get to inspect/clean the other wheels/pins, I will install helper springs (already have them).

I also ordered the cheaper Prevost pins with the o-ring groves in them. I will see if they fit.

Related,but off topic: I think part of the reason for my caliper hanging up was that the chrome on the pins bubbled and didn't let it slide freely. I couldn't get new pins when I replaced the rotor (I was doing it in my friends driveway), so I just ground the bubble/pits away with a grinder and knocked off any loose spots.

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #13 – September 10, 2014, 01:08:07 am

Wayne has very strong opinions on many things. Helper springs are a free install when slide pins are removed and cleaned as there is no extra labor or time. Other nearby shops welcome and want to do the job they have done many times and everyone in their shop is on the same page. Many are not surprised at your findings.

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #14 – September 10, 2014, 01:20:03 am

RE: I don't know if there are more than one Wayne at FOT but I had an encounter with one Wayne there that left me dollars poorer and shall I say frustrated. I will not let him work on my coach again and management knows why.

There is only one Wayne, and your got that right.

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #15 – September 10, 2014, 11:43:53 am

Steve,
I am attaching a pic of the spring installed.
IMHO there should be no charge for installation if pins are being serviced. It adds no time to the process.
While I would not expect these springs to return pads with a stuck caliper it is stronger than you might expect and would add a certain amount of "help" to the return.
I would not pull it down without adding the springs.
Jerry

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #16 – September 10, 2014, 11:51:18 am

Thanks for the pic. When I get a release from the knee doctor, I will check mine.

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #17 – September 10, 2014, 09:15:46 pm

Quote from: Barry & Cindy – September 10, 2014, 01:08:07 am

Wayne has very strong opinions on many things. Helper springs are a free install when slide pins are removed and cleaned as there is no extra labor or time. Other nearby shops welcome and want to do the job they have done many times and everyone in their shop is on the same page. Many are not surprised at your findings.

Barry, we repair brakes on a regular basis and never charge extra (which includes replacing the springs unless otherwise requested.)
Meritor does not include the springs with the repair kit, which is the only added expense.
Surface cracks on rotors are rarely an issue unless they are other than surface deep (rare btw.)
Most of the time though owners will replace the rotors.
I've found that cryo processed rotors don't get the typical cracks FWIW. pc

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #18 – September 10, 2014, 09:29:20 pm

What is the part number for the spring kit?

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #19 – September 10, 2014, 11:06:54 pm

KIT15018 by MERITOR - KIT

I think this link will get you there. I purchased from these folks - seemed to be the best price around per set.

When we had our brakes serviced a while back the Tech did not know that one pad per rotor is thinner than the other. Me too. He suggested we have the pads replaced soon. We purchased the pads for replacement and when received we made an appointment the have both rear set replaced. When the Tech, at a different shop, 500 miles up the road, got the wheels off and inspected the pads. He called me into the shop and showed me the "old pads" and the "new pads". I could not detect any difference in thickness. I do not recall if the inside or the outside pad is thinner. We returned the pads to Find it Parts and the Tech installed the Helper Springs. All has been good.

When I asked Meritor about the helper springs they recommended that they be installed. They would not say that they produced these helper springs due to safety issues or malfunction, but they have produced them and recommend them. I put them on.

Re: Meritor Helper Springs - Wayne at FOT Doesn't Like

Reply #20 – September 14, 2014, 01:54:20 pm

When we had the rear brakes done at Sacramento Truck Center, we had the helper springs installed. There was no extra labor charge. The kit was about $17 ea. That was at about 137000 mi. Brake drag can be enough to get brake rotors very hot, cause some cracks, and cause the MH to pull to one side. Also be sure the slack adjusters are set and operating correctly.

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