Replacing Coach Batteries

Topic: Replacing Coach Batteries (Read 1948 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #25 – September 11, 2014, 12:26:07 pm

I may have said this before but I'm going to replace the 2 8Ds with wet-cells; the start batteries are new red-tops. We have at least 2 years and perhaps 4 before we will be able to snowbird and by then the technology may have changed significantly. I have chargers that take significantly better care of wet-cells than the devices that came on my coach and that should help. We'll be watching how this all shakes out.

Craig

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #26 – September 11, 2014, 12:30:39 pm

Quote from: John Haygarth – September 11, 2014, 12:16:45 pm

Bob, if it (was) a financial issue that would make me wonder even more about the quailty build of our coach's. Surely another couple hundred bucks on top of the original cost of them would NOT have been an issue. I think it was other thoughts, or lack of them!
JohnH

I agree. It was not a financial decision. Our coach came with three Optima Yellow Top starting batteries. Optima Yellow Tops are not budget batteries.

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #27 – September 11, 2014, 12:40:32 pm

Perhaps when they built these coaches, GELS were considered to be better for deep cycling. They have certainly stood the test of time with many reporting more than 10 years of service. Also, the house batteries are charged by the alternator through the isolater do they not? The voltage drop of .5-.7 volts or so would seem to make them work together well as configured from the factory.
Form an East Penn document regarding their AGM & GEL batteries;

Quote

For 80 to 90 degrees F:
AGM: Charge optimum=14.10 Charge Maximum=14.40 Float Optimum=13.20 Float Maximum=13.50
GEL: Charge optimum=13.50 Charge Maximum=13.80 Float Optimum=13.20 Float Maximum=13.50

Also, IIRC, Gels used to be more expensive than AGM's and better for slow discharge scenarios. As always, could be wrong... I for one, do not think Foretravel skimped on the batteries but supplied the best available for the purpose at the time. The kind of thinking that includes all wheel Air Disc brakes and a transmission retarder across the product line does not try to save a few bucks on consumables like batteries, IMHO.
Don

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #28 – September 11, 2014, 01:20:49 pm

Hi

I run across these 6V AGM Batteries. I for one am unable to lift the 8D batteries and adding the O'Riley guy to our entourage may create some challenges.

So what do you guys think?

http://www.atbatt.com/amstron-gc2-6v-agm-deep-cycle-battery.asp

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #29 – September 11, 2014, 02:13:41 pm

Quote from: acousticart – September 11, 2014, 12:40:32 pm

Also, the house batteries are charged by the alternator through the isolater do they not? The voltage drop of .5-.7 volts or so would seem to make them work together well as configured from the factory.

My understanding is that both the house batteries and the starting batteries are charged by the alternator through the isolator, which means that both sets are charged through diodes and therefore see the same voltage drop. This--if nothing else--means that it makes sense to use AGM batteries for the house batteries, since AGMs require the same charging voltage as do the starting batteries.

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #30 – September 11, 2014, 02:21:24 pm

I am guessing they went with the best available at the time, Optima for the engine and Gel for the house.

I am also guessing they went with three Optimas instead of an 8D for the engine to make it possible to isolate a battery and possible to get them easily and quickly swapped out in the field.

I really cannot complain, as the original batteries lasted over 10 years, including some accidental over discharging with the shore power knocked out.

When I did replace the batteries last year, I went with LifeLine AGM 8D for the house at a Prevost rally price and got the Optima set for a steal on the web. If I were to do it over today, i would go with another LifeLine 8D in place of the Optimas, although the Optimas are doing very well.

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #31 – September 11, 2014, 02:24:26 pm

My only issue over the years was when I had to get a new regulator put into my alternator somewhere around 2006-7. Off the shelf, it was set to around 15 volts. I took the alternator back off and had them lower it to 14.0 in deference to the GELs once I realized what was happening.

So my system is basically set to the GEL needs, which are, granted, a little low to get a maximum charge into the AGM start batteries. The 3 AGM Yelowtop batteries have had a Trik-L-Start attached to them for about 8-9 years of their 12 year lifespan, and every year I am amazed that they continue to start the coach without the boost switch. Once I am satisfied that they can do that, however, I use the boost switch to be kind to them for the rest of the trip. They can die at any time and I'll feel that FT made a good choice sticking Yellowtops in where all documentation tells me they should have skimped and just put the less expensive Redtops in there. I was going to replace them with Redtops last year, but the longer they last, the more I think I'll buy Yellowtops. About a $25 per battery difference, the last time I looked.

It is interesting how temperature effects how much voltage the batteries should receive. I was in Abiline (on the way to FOT) and got stuck in sub freezing temps for several days. I saw the Pro-sine pumping 14.2 or 14.3 into the Gels and got worried. I called Xantrex and they guided me to the temp/voltage table and I was reassured it was all ok.

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #32 – September 11, 2014, 02:39:49 pm

Quote from: John Haygarth – September 11, 2014, 12:16:45 pm

Bob, if it (was) a financial issue that would make me wonder even more about the quailty build of our coach's. Surely another couple hundred bucks on top of the original cost of them would NOT have been an issue. I think it was other thoughts, or lack of them!
JohnH

Without causing dissent here my internal current and then sources mentioned QC and construction issues. No money

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #33 – September 11, 2014, 03:04:33 pm

Yes. I should have checked into the manufacturing date to see if AGMs were available then, maybe not. I too dropped the charge rate of alternator down a touch even for the Lifeline AGMs we have as it too was pumping out a bit high for them (Wyatt's tip at the time).
I would never think of putting wet cell's in that bay as I have seen enough mess made by them in other units that I do not want in mine, plus the upkeep. Having solar and researching all the well known companies supplying those systems also highly recommend AGM over others, so that too was a help in my decision.
JohnH

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #34 – September 11, 2014, 03:15:02 pm

Sorry guys but this thread has what I believe to be incorrect information like:

Incorrect Quote #1: AGM batteries will cycle twice as many times as Gel batteries.
Wyatt's answer: All the research and experience that I have has convinced me that a properly maintained Gel battery will provide about 20% more (yes more) cycles than a properly maintained AGM battery. However, the Gel battery is more easily damaged by high charge voltage and destroyed by equalizing. If you do not want to adjust your charging systems, dont buy Gel.

Incorrect Quote #2: replace the old GELs at 3 years.
Wyatt's answer: This comes from someone who has a Gel battery which was badly abused by being charged at the normal 14.6 volts, or equalized. When I bought my coach in April 2010, the Freedom inverter/charger, which many of you have, was set to start in "Equalize Mode". It was pushing 100amps into fully charged Gel batteries. MOT load tested the batteries and indicated that they were good for service. Wyatt's test revealed that the batteries had only a quarter of new amphour capacity. I gave them away and they were used in a house for another four years before they failed completely. I was not willing to carry around 165 pound batteries which had a capacity of 60 amphours each.

I currently have two 4 year old Lifeline AGM batteries and one 12 year old Gel battery. When fully charged, the Gel provides 50% more amps to the inverter than either AGM. When 20% discharged, the Gel and AGM batteries provide the same number of amps to the inverter. This is due to the different technology between Gel and AGM and that the internal resistance of the Gel is lower which means less heat when charging and higher voltage when under heavy load.

Wyatt's opinion: the Gel is king but is fragile and requires special care, such that for most Folks, the AGM is the most practical choice.

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #35 – September 11, 2014, 03:33:08 pm

Regarding the mixing of AGM start and Gel coach batteries being a mistake by Foretravel.
With a coach configured like my 1996 U320, where the start batteries are behind the passenger rear tires with short battery cables, while the coach batteries are just behind the front tire on the driver side with 30 foot long battery cables, AGM start with Gel coach batteries works very well due to the voltage drop on the 30 foot cables.

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #36 – September 11, 2014, 03:52:14 pm

I love your posts Wyatt.

Thanks!

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #37 – September 11, 2014, 04:34:49 pm

Quote from: Tim Fiedler – September 11, 2014, 03:52:14 pm

I love your posts Wyatt.

Thanks!

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #38 – September 11, 2014, 05:33:12 pm

Here is mk's battery chartS on the DEKA 8'd's

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #39 – September 11, 2014, 06:10:16 pm

Quote from: P. Wyatt Sabourin – September 11, 2014, 03:33:08 pm

Regarding the mixing of AGM start and Gel coach batteries being a mistake by Foretravel.
With a coach configured like my 1996 U320, where the start batteries are behind the passenger rear tires with short battery cables, while the coach batteries are just behind the front tire on the driver side with 30 foot long battery cables, AGM start with Gel coach batteries works very well due to the voltage drop on the 30 foot cables.

What is the measured voltage drop in the 30-foot cables when the batteries are nearly fully charged?

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #40 – September 11, 2014, 06:18:36 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – September 11, 2014, 05:33:12 pm

Here is mk's battery chartS on the DEKA 8'd's
I

Are those charts real or marketing hype?

Whatever. I got a great deal on Lifeline agm 8ds last year. We will see how long they last.

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #41 – September 11, 2014, 06:55:24 pm

I agree that the Lifeline agms are good otherwise I would not have bought them, but I also read and trust Wyatt's comments as he is one person who does his work testing and explains it in simple short language that us none Engineers can read.
Plus he is Canadian

JohnH

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #42 – September 11, 2014, 07:00:00 pm

Yes the charts are accurate. I use FAA Advisory Circular 43.13-1b and it has charts and formulas.

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #43 – September 11, 2014, 07:09:43 pm

Quote from: Tom Lang – September 11, 2014, 06:18:36 pm

Are those charts real or marketing hype?

The charts appear to be real. However, they tell only part of the story. While Gel batteries are recommended as being superior when repeated deep discharges are required (and they are charged at the proper voltages), they don't perform as well as AGM batteries when high current is required, they don't perform as well as AGM batteries in colder weather, and they require a lower charging voltage than do wet-cell batteries and AGM batteries. Therefore, while they are superior under certain conditions, AGM batteries are superior for typical motorhome applications.

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #44 – September 11, 2014, 08:01:00 pm

Quote from: D.J. Osborn – September 11, 2014, 07:09:43 pm

The charts appear to be real. However, they tell only part of the story. While Gel batteries are recommended as being superior when repeated deep discharges are required (and they are charged at the proper voltages), they don't perform as well as AGM batteries when high current is required, they don't perform as well as AGM batteries in colder weather, and they require a lower charging voltage than do wet-cell batteries and AGM batteries. Therefore, while they are superior under certain conditions, AGM batteries are superior for typical motorhome applications.

And the good news for me is that I rarely draw the house batteries below 80%, so a long life is to be expected. Before I added the solar panels, this would not have been the case.

By the way, when one of my original gel batteries developed a problem after 10 years of faithful service, I shopped around for replacements. I was determined to replace them with another set of GEL, not AGM. My plans changed when I was led to the seller offering discounts on Lifeline batteries on the Prevost Community, at that time he was offering an additional discount because he was at a Prevost rally. As I was placing my order, I discovered Lifeline only made AGM, no GEL could be had at this price.

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #45 – September 11, 2014, 09:24:12 pm

Deka gels are rated to minus thirty degrees F.

Borrowed two nine year old 8g8d's my guru was replacing in a prevost as two showed bad on two different testers.

The other two I borrowed both tested ok. I used them for six months.

If I did not want the 675 amp hour max capacity for three I would have kept these as they still had almost 200 amp hour capacity.

My buddy normally rotated them in the bus to equalize the wear as the cabling was not exactly lenght but with a back injury and no help he stopped the rotation at about five years old.

The alternator at 160 amp and the heart freedom 25 130 amp charge rate match the three 8G8d's very well.

No massive current draws in this use.

Guru buddy made up a three? 8g8d MK battery system to power the ducted a/c's on a fifth wheel for late afternoon and up to midnight use with no generator. But the batteries in plastic boxes with tops and bottoms. Entertainment/party trailer used in a specific gen hour dry camp area.

One night use. Recharged upon return.

He said the customer liked it a lot.

Left chart is the gels temp chart. Right is Agm

Ended up in 1988 at -32 degrees overnight at breckenridge on Christmas skiing.

Two New flooded cells 8'ds Volts measured 12.5? Zero amps. Every thing in the coach dead.

Major fun to light the 3208 and gen.

I am super cautious since.

Almost thought about battery plate heaters for the optima gels for the engine start and the house. Not planning on that again.

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #46 – September 11, 2014, 09:44:55 pm

Quote from: cajk – September 11, 2014, 08:19:49 am

X2 for O'Reilly's. (2) Super Start AGM 8D's at $450 each, installed for free by the store manager and his burly helper.

X3 for O'Reilly's. I never would have considered them until y'all started talking about them. Went by there this afternoon, and they agreed to sell me three of them at $400 each. They will also remove the existing Lifelines and install the Super Start AGM 8D's tomorrow. My bottom line is much less than I had expected.

Time will tell whether these will perform as well or not. The specs are about the same as the Lifelines.

Thanks to everyone who provided input and advice.

Now, back to the alternator problem; then the A/C fan belt; then ....

Trent

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #47 – September 12, 2014, 06:48:05 am

Quote from: Tom Lang – September 11, 2014, 08:01:00 pm

I discovered Lifeline only made AGM, no GEL could be had at this price.

Concorde, who makes Lifeline and Sun Xtender batteries, as well as other battery brands (such as for aviation), manufactured Gel batteries for many years but now believes that AGM technology is superior and no longer manufactures Gel batteries.

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #48 – September 12, 2014, 08:48:59 am

After leaving the trickle charger on over a two day period the bank of three batteries started the engine right up as ususal. The charger still saids to ck batteries. If they start everytime I will wait for service to have cked by a professional. If one of the batteries ck bad then I will replace all three myself. Appears Sams has the best price on the optima battery which is #34 RedTop. About $149 and amazon has about same with free delivery, but with Sams I can see the date of mfg before buying. DAN

Re: Replacing Coach Batteries

Reply #49 – September 12, 2014, 11:42:38 am

When my original Optima batteries were five years old, one of the three developed a shorted cell. It would start without using boost, but only for a few hours after being charged. The bad battery was draining the good ones. I discovered the cause by disconnecting them and measuring individual voltages...one came up 2 volts short. With the bad battery taken out, I ran very well for a time before installing a blue top I happened to have on hand. I went another five years before needing to replace the whole set.

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