Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

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Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

October 11, 2014, 10:58:47 am

Following several troubleshooting attempts failed to clear Fault 194 from my Prosine Invertor/charger. Contact with Xantrax/Prosine no longer offers this unit; instead it is their recommendation to replace under their "customer exchange program discount" to a Freedom SW 3000. Price including the remote panel and shipping is $1,724.76.

I'm concerned that the new AC and DC and remote panel connections are on the right side of the unit vs at the bottom on my current one. Also, rerouting required as the battery temp probe and remote connections are Ethernet wires vs regular phone line on my current unit. Has anyone had the "pleasure" of self replacing one of these? I would look forward to comment/opinion on the level of pain involved.

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #1 – October 11, 2014, 01:55:52 pm

Well, if it were me, I would ignore the "customer replacement discount" (especially at nearly $2k) and find an inverter at a more reasonable price that will do what I want.

You should be able to find something well suited to your applications for between $800 and $1200. Some of them are bound to have regular wires to the temp probe (and probably be cheaper as a consequence). You might also discover that you don't reall need 3,000 watts of power if you analyze what you use your inverter for.

I have extended cables by installing a busbar, connecting the battery cables to that and then the inverter (and other devices) to the busbar. These are $20 or so.

A 3,000 watt inverter should also have a terminal output so you can wire it to a circuit breaker box (not just plugs). AC wiring can be extended with simple twist-on connectors (or crimp on - I prefer the types that you can heat shrink to seal the connection).

Here is an example of what's available:

Amazon.com : 3000 Watt Pure Sine Wave FCC Approved GFCI Outlet Inverter :

This may not fit your requirements but it's a start and since the OEM guys don't offer a plug-in replacement and you'll have to do some redesign anyway, you might as well look for a product that will do the job at less money.

Look for the ability to wire full output into the system (not just a plug), and low idle current (no load current draw). 1-amp or less is good. 3-amps or more is not.

Craig

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #2 – October 11, 2014, 02:34:21 pm

For my money the Xantrex or an equivalent is worth it. I'd much rather have the charger and inverter integrated, automatic changeover, etc. I've messed with the other solutions for years before and I've really come to appreciate my Prosine 2.5 even though it's a bit thirsty at low power draw. I would most likely pay the money to fix mine unless the newer model was much more efficient at low power draw. That's really my issue, we like to run a fan at night and don't feel like stringing cords all over the place for a small inverter.

Just my 0.02 and I don't think the amazon solution is a bad one to save a bundle of cash. If you go that route, troll ebay as I found a brand new Progressive Dynamics 45amp 3 stage charger for $40 shipped. Similar to this Inteli-Power 9245 Converter/Charger 45 Amp 9200 w/ Charge Wizard ..

A truly ideal boondocking solution would be several small inverters throughout able to be switched on and off at will. Probably wouldn't be that hard to implement but I'm too lazy

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #3 – October 11, 2014, 02:50:24 pm

Quote from: Fiddler – October 11, 2014, 10:58:47 am

Following several troubleshooting attempts failed to clear Fault 194 from my Prosine Invertor/charger. Contact with Xantrax/Prosine no longer offers this unit; instead it is their recommendation to replace under their "customer exchange program discount" to a Freedom SW 3000.

I took a look through the forum for past discussions regarding replacing failed Prosine units (since as you were told, they aren't repairable Prosine 2.0 Inverter Repair ). Looks like a number of members have gone with one of Magnum's MagnaSine offerings. One of our commercial members offers the forum a discount on Magnum Chargers, inverters, and refrigerators

I'm personally looking forward to actual installation/use feedback from those who opt for the new load-support/hybrid MSH3012M.

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #4 – October 11, 2014, 06:04:31 pm

Somebody might beat me to it... unless I have an inverter crisis before we get back to San Diego in Mid December

(I have the new load-support/hybrid MSH3012M with us just in case!), but I will be providing as much detail on my experience when I get to the install and afterwards as I can find the time for... It is part of a larger project which includes relocating the inverter, adding a Magnum Mini-Panel with Inverter bypass, Solar install (Midnite Solar Classic 150, UniSolar, and Global Solar flexible panels), and more... Just a teaser on what's to come

Don

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #5 – October 11, 2014, 08:09:36 pm

Quote from: acousticart – October 11, 2014, 06:04:31 pm

... It is part of a larger project which includes relocating the inverter, adding a Magnum Mini-Panel with Inverter bypass, Solar install (Midnite Solar Classic 150, UniSolar, and Global Solar flexible panels), and more... Just a teaser on what's to come

Oooooh... I'll have to buy a lot more popcorn.

Craig

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #6 – October 11, 2014, 08:41:46 pm

We replaced our Prosine 2.0 with: http://www.imarineusa.com/magnumenergyms28122800watt12v100atruesinewaveinvertercharger-1-2.aspx
We also opted for the ARC 50 remote. A fellow forum member suggested this unit - $1400 + the remote $142.00.

We installed it ourselves. Did not know anything about inverters/converters before this experience. I did contact Magnum b/4 I flipped the switch to make sure I did it correctly. Magnum was and has been very helpful with the install and setup. I also contact a very knowledgeable forum member numerous times during this process. His input and help was invaluable.

We did not look at the Hybrid - wasn't available then.

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #7 – October 11, 2014, 09:38:14 pm

Quote from: Fiddler – October 11, 2014, 10:58:47 am

Following several troubleshooting attempts failed to clear Fault 194 from my Prosine Invertor/charger. Contact with Xantrax/Prosine no longer offers this unit; instead it is their recommendation to replace under their "customer exchange program discount" to a Freedom SW 3000. Price including the remote panel and shipping is $1,724.76.

I'm concerned that the new AC and DC and remote panel connections are on the right side of the unit vs at the bottom on my current one. Also, rerouting required as the battery temp probe and remote connections are Ethernet wires vs regular phone line on my current unit. Has anyone had the "pleasure" of self replacing one of these? I would look forward to comment/opinion on the level of pain involved.

I replaced my Heart 2500 unit with a SW2012. There are a few others who have gone with the SW3012 here.

I didn't find installation too bad but there are some changes that need to be made to accommodate the new inverter. Reworking the wood panel where the display was to fit the new one. Routing the new comm cable and running the temperature sensor. Most difficult was mounting the new inverter since the original location on the floor did not meet the installation requirements of the SW2012 regarding clearances for ventilation. Had to move the inverter location up on the side wall, opposite the battery bay, to meet the requirements.

I'm very pleased with all of the additional information that is available with the new control panel compared to the old unit.

Check ebay and you should be able to get a SW3012 for a bit less than $1500 but you will have to buy an additional control panel for it. Also be aware that a SW3012 will probably require larger cables between your batteries and the inverter than you currently have (though I don't think anyone on this site has actually installed the larger cables when they've done the installation, from what I've read).

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #8 – October 11, 2014, 10:05:23 pm

I first read about the rumored hybrid inverter more than a year before it came out. I was finally going to get a Victron (which is also a hybrid, though they don't use that term). When I was just getting ready to buy, I saw that it had finally been released. I called Alan from Bay Marine supply (it wasn't on his web site yet), and he got me a price. By the time I had finished a couple of other projects, it was available on his site at a more than competitive price... call him, or add it to the cart to view the price. The Magnum manuals are much better done than most anything else in recent memory. Very detailed with good diagrams. And they are made in the USA, which is refreshing in a feature rich, cost competitive technology product such as this. I am looking forward to the installation as there have been many times on our latest trip (nearly three months so far with almost two to go) where the power sharing feature would have been really nice to have, not to mention the battery monitor (a separate device which uses a shunt and goes on the Magnum bus to integrate with the ARC50 remote).
Don

Quote from: Carol & Scott – October 11, 2014, 08:41:46 pm

We replaced our Prosine 2.0 with: http://www.imarineusa.com/magnumenergyms28122800watt12v100atruesinewaveinvertercharger-1-2.aspx
We also opted for the ARC 50 remote. A fellow forum member suggested this unit - $1400 + the remote $142.00.

We installed it ourselves. Did not know anything about inverters/converters before this experience. I did contact Magnum b/4 I flipped the switch to make sure I did it correctly. Magnum was and has been very helpful with the install and setup. I also contact a very knowledgeable forum member numerous times during this process. His input and help was invaluable.

We did not look at the Hybrid - wasn't available then.

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #9 – October 12, 2014, 01:32:20 am

Some of you may be wondering what the big deal is over a hybrid inverter. The "Hybrid" inverter is supposed to have the ability to augment shore power with battery/inverter power if more power is needed than shore power can provide. This could be significant when hooked up to shore power that is only 30-amp and you need to run the microwave while an AC unit is running. You would not have to shut off the air conditioning while the microwave was running.

When boondocking this probably would not be much of an issue unless you have a separate source of power. Some RVs have a trailer for cars and other toys and have installed solar panels on that trailer along with a separate inverter. So they plug into that trailer as if it were shore power. A hybrid inverter would be able to detect how much power your coach is demanding and augment the power from the trailer's solar/batteries/inverter.

In our case, since we seldom hook up to shore power, it would probably not be much of a necessity and we would opt for the lowest idle-current inverter that would do whatever specific job we need done.

But it is a very clever idea from an engineering standpoint.

Craig

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #10 – October 12, 2014, 05:05:12 pm

Fiddler,

I have a friend who had a system redesign completed in their late model Country Coach Affinity. Part of that project was the replacement of two Prosine 3.0 with Magnums inverter chargers. Both of the prosines are fully functional. They are offering the units for sale at $500 each. Please let me know if you are interested and I will put you in touch with these folks. Otherwise, good luck in solving your problem.

George in Birmingham
'03 Magna 42'

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #11 – October 12, 2014, 05:23:09 pm

Hi Fiddler,

I would be interested in the Prosines.

308-440-5154

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #12 – October 12, 2014, 06:20:48 pm

FOT replaced our Prosine 2.0 with the new model Xantrex SW3012. I inquired about needing larger battery cables and the FOT employees assured me that the original cables were fine. The inverter/charger was changed out as part of the motorhome purchase because the old Prosine 2.0 failed the week we were to take possession. FOT placed the new remote in the cabinet next to the cabinet where the old remote was located because the new remote panel was larger.

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #13 – October 12, 2014, 06:57:45 pm

The manual for the Magnum specifies using 4/0 cable with a 12 volt system... from the manual;

Quote

Battery cables should be no less than #4/0 AWG (107.2 mm2) for 12-volt and #2/0 AWG (67.4 mm2) for 24-volt systems. Crimped and sealed copper ring terminal lugs with a 5/16 hole should be used to connect to the DC terminals on the inverter.

Of course, it is not immediately going to melt down the 2/0 cable that came on our coaches (at least our two battery U270), but to get the most out of it and to protect the investment, I plan on using the larger cable on my installation... unless of course, I have to do it before we get back to our home base in San Diego. Since I will be moving the inverter, I plan on optimizing the the cable length (equal and as short as can be and still allow the batteries to slide out without disconnecting). Fortunately, I can get the 2/0 cable in the marine style (tinned throughout) at a good price from Bay Marine Supply. I figure that I will need about 8' of each and probably 6 to 8 crimped ends.
Alan sent me a link to a good read on making battery cables;
Making Your Own Battery Cables Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at
Don

Quote from: rsihnhold – October 11, 2014, 09:38:14 pm

Also be aware that a SW3012 will probably require larger cables between your batteries and the inverter than you currently have (though I don't think anyone on this site has actually installed the larger cables when they've done the installation, from what I've read).

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #14 – October 12, 2014, 07:16:57 pm

Correct cable/lug connections include proper crimp, soldering (rosin) then correct heat shrink, we do many cables.
If you can correctly measure the voltage drop on the cable, Cummins spec .2 volt drop under load, if more drop you need better cabling.
Do many larger engines with 4 Grp 8D or more with two 50MT Delco starters, up to 32 volt and large 8 volt Surette batteries.

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #15 – October 12, 2014, 07:31:42 pm

A 3000 watt inverter draws approximately 275 amps. At 20 ft round trip battery cables, and a 2.25 Percent voltage drop, 4/0 cables would be required. At 12 ft round trip battery cables, and the 2.25 Percent voltage drop, 2/0 cables would be required. 2/0 cables, outside of engine spaces, are rated for 330 amps. 2/0 cables, inside engine spaces, are rated for 280 amps. If you are running the 3000 watt inverter at maximum output and have long cable runs, 4/0 cable would be required. Inverter manufacturers have to consider that the inverter would be used at maximum output with long cable runs.

The above computations and specs are based on using AWG wire with Type 3 tinned copper stranding and 105 C dry vinyl insulation that meets UL 1426 and ABYC standards.

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #16 – October 12, 2014, 08:19:19 pm

Quote from: LTG – October 12, 2014, 07:31:42 pm

A 3000 watt inverter draws approximately 275 amps. At 20 ft round trip battery cables, and a 2.25 Percent voltage drop, 4/0 cables would be required. At 12 ft round trip battery cables, and the 2.25 Percent voltage drop, 2/0 cables would be required. 2/0 cables, outside of engine spaces, are rated for 330 amps. 2/0 cables, inside engine spaces, are rated for 280 amps. If you are running the 3000 watt inverter at maximum output and have long cable runs, 4/0 cable would be required. Inverter manufacturers have to consider that the inverter would be used at maximum output with long cable runs.

As an electrician, I'd be interested in where you got those ampacities and which insulation type you are using.

Here is a link to the Xantex SW3012 manual, on page 16 you will see Xantrex's MINIMUM cable size requirements.

http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Inverter-Chargers/Freedom-SW-24V/97-0020-01-01_Rev-D(artwork)FSWInstallationGuide.pdf

Those MINIMUM requirements for a SW3012 are 400kcmil for greater than 10' and 4/0 for greater than 5'. Also, MINIMUM fuse requirements are 350 amps for the SW3012.

I highly recommend that everyone reads the installation and owners manuals prior to yourself or someone else just throw a larger inverter into your old installation. I'd also ignore anything FOT said when it is contradicted by Xantrex.

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #17 – October 12, 2014, 11:38:56 pm

Quote from: rsihnhold – October 12, 2014, 08:19:19 pm

As an electrician, I'd be interested in where you got those ampacities and which insulation type you are using.

Rsihnhold,

The amps useage was calculated as follows: 3000 watts divided by 12 volts = 250 amps x 1.1 for efficiency converting from DC to AC = 275 amps.

The voltage drop can be calculated from any voltage drop calculator available on the internet. With voltage drop, length of wire run, and amps used, the recommended wire size can be determined.

The wire size and CM area are from any wire gauge chart for AWG copper wire. Xantrex inverters are used a lot on boats and that is why I used the AWG wire sizes.

Please take the Xantrex manual, put their wire requirements, wire length run, and compare the voltage drops to what I posted. You will find where my figures came from.

Research the ForeForums for Xantrex SW3012 and you will find prior threads where this has been discussed. You will also find my postings and my discussions with Xantrex technical service about this issue.

FOT built my coach. They have also installed this inverter/charger in new Foretravels in the past. I have no problems with what they say.

This information is also available in a very widely read electrical book, Nigel Calders Mechanical and Electrical Manual.

Also, at Ancor.com look under "resources" and you will find some of the tables and info I talked about.

PS, I almost forgot to mention that the Xantrex SW3012 manual cites AWG wire when talking about wire size requirements.

Thanks,
Larry

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #18 – October 13, 2014, 08:16:01 pm

Sorry, it was sort of rhetorical question as those numbers are a bit optimistic. There is far more involved in finding the ampacity of a cable than those basic calculations. If you get ahold of a copy of the NEC (National Electrical Code), you will see that any wires size will have a large range of different ampacities depending on many factors (including insulation type, ambient temperatures, installation method, etc.) and I'm not going to get into it here.

I highly doubt that Foretravel ignores Xantrex's installation specifications on any new build as that would leave them liable for replacement costs if one should fail since Xantrex isn't going to replace a unit that has been installed incorrectly. It would also fall back on them if a coach were to burn down or someone were killed due to them not following the equipment manufacturer's installation requirements.

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #19 – October 13, 2014, 09:46:45 pm

Robert,
Correct, why I carry the little yellow Wiggleys or Quiggleys book, give you all the info to keep inspectors happy IF you come across one that is awake.

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #20 – October 13, 2014, 10:01:22 pm

May not be of any help to you, but I will tell my little story. When we were still at FT having traded in our older coach for a used U270, I found that the inverter/charger was intermittent. Salesman Dave said, "We'll be glad to sell you a new one." (Was he joking?) Having been the son of a junkman, I learned early that many things "failed" for silly reasons. I de-energized; pulled the face off the box, and one at time pulled the circuit boards, cleaned the contacts with a pencil eraser, re-installed each board using a safety-tie to secure it. No more problems from this (then) six-year old coach's inverter. We have had it for 13 years. I have driven in and out of Chaco Canyon with it, and on many other terrible roads during that time. No problems with the inv/chcg unit. andy

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #21 – October 14, 2014, 12:22:04 am

Quote from: rsihnhold – October 13, 2014, 08:16:01 pm

Sorry, it was sort of rhetorical question as those numbers are a bit optimistic. There is far more involved in finding the ampacity of a cable than those basic calculations. If you get ahold of a copy of the NEC (National Electrical Code), you will see that any wires size will have a large range of different ampacities depending on many factors (including insulation type, ambient temperatures, installation method, etc.) and I'm not going to get into it here.

Robert,

I reviewed the NEC code and realize where I screwed up. I should have specified the specific type wire. My post and computations were based on AWG wire with Type 3 tinned copper stranding with 105 C dry vinyl insulation.

I also read the Xantrex manual and saw that in the footnotes that they were referencing AWG wire with a 75 C rating.

I came from a boating environment and have always used the marine AWG wire with the above specs and now realize that others (including RV builders) may not use that grade of wire.

Thanks,
Larry

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #22 – October 26, 2014, 09:15:48 pm

George,

I would be interested in the Prosines.

Jim

308-440-5154

Re: Failed Prosine 2.5 needs replacement

Reply #23 – October 26, 2014, 10:07:27 pm

Jim,

Give Tammy or Rick Toalson a call regarding their Prosines for sale. Tammy's number is 850-866-5758 and Rick's is 850-866-0909.

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