Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Topic: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow (Read 1667 times) previous topic - next topic

Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

November 01, 2014, 11:39:11 am

We were leaving the Expo Center at Shawnee to go to Claremore, I was hooked up and driving out to get fuel when the coach died coming up to the light at 177. I tried starting it, it cranked, but no fire. Tried and tried, starting the generator and had to boost switch on and still cranking but no fire. Policeman was directing traffic around me and asked if I needed a wrecker. I will call one if needed- then I let generator run while I unhooked and moved the toad. Went back and got it started. Friends from the motorcade came over to help and gave great suggestions.

After fueling I still was running sluggish so I went back to Expo center to maybe change filters. Shut it down and again help came over. A few minutes later I started it, fired right up , no problems on the drive, full power, etc. VMS said it was fuel pressure issue. It seems to be running good now, I will continue to monitor and check things- must have been a crazy hic up???

Foretravel people are the best- coming to aid others in distress.

Travel safe and see some of you in Nac for Ladies Driving School

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #1 – November 01, 2014, 11:41:28 am

Check filters and fuel lines as you are at that age. Also look at the lift pump but that is usually starting issues not a stalling issue.

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #2 – November 01, 2014, 11:45:30 am

Thanks John

I just had changed filter about 500 miles before that hic up.

Also had a fuel line replaced and new lift pump put in at Cummins Bridgeway in Cincinnati this May.
Could have been a piece of gunk or air that worked it's way through??

Or maybe it just didn't want to run that day, kinda like I do sometimes...........lol

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #3 – November 01, 2014, 11:46:10 am

Which engine do you have? If it has a fuel solenoid, check that it is opening and staying open. Many have had to tie it in the up position until they could get a new solenoid or its relay.

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #4 – November 01, 2014, 11:53:36 am

Brett is right and you should have that checked too since you had the other stuff done already.

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #5 – November 01, 2014, 12:00:48 pm

I have the 8.3 ISC engine. Don't know where the fuel solenoid is.

I have heard about the fuel return valve, is that the same thing?

The more I learn the more I find I know nothing................

Thanks for the help.

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #6 – November 01, 2014, 12:04:37 pm

Quote from: Ted & Karen – November 01, 2014, 11:39:11 am

We were leaving the Expo Center at Shawnee to go to Claremore, I was hooked up and driving out to get fuel when the coach died coming up to the light at 177.

-snip-

A few minutes later I started it, fired right up , no problems on the drive, full power, etc. VMS said it was fuel pressure issue. It seems to be running good now, I will continue to monitor and check things- must have been a crazy hic up???

Out of curiosity, how low on fuel were you, and did you go happen to turn just before it died?

Reason I ask is that the tank has a fairly large footprint and pick-up not at the very bottom. If the fuel sloshes a bit, the pick-up point might be exposed to air and pull some in.

Early in the ownership of our coach (10 years ago) we had a couple of instances with exactly those symptoms, but fortunately each time of the 2 times it died were when we were pulling in for fuel and Steve was able to re-prime it from the rear of the coach using the air purge. After much discussion with FT, we no longer let the tank go below 1/4 and have never had a problem again. I suspect you could have just "sucked air" for a moment there and lost prime.

Michelle

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #7 – November 01, 2014, 01:17:45 pm

Makes no difference when the last time was that you changed fuel filters. Running sluggishly is a frequent sign of fuel starvation due to partially clogged filter or low fuel. Stopping the engine, even for a short time allows some of the contaminants to fall to the bottom of the filter filter. Michelle makes a good point. How low were you on fuel? Even after filling, it can take a while for all the air to get out of the system. Usually, a 1000 RPM in neutral will get rig of the air in a minute or two. Climbing, descending or idling the engine with the coach tilted to one side with low fuel can introduce air into the fuel system.

Fuel solenoid could be temperature sensitive with cooling down allowing it to function correctly. Intermittent faults are the hardest to figure out.

If it was a problem with contamination, it will show up again pretty soon, especially while climbing grades. Changing filters because of a clogging condition means changing the generator filter also.

Pierce

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #8 – November 01, 2014, 01:39:37 pm

Along the same lines as Michelle & Pierce here is another thought. You said "Also had a fuel line replaced " Did they just replace the feed line or did they replace both feed & return? When they replaced the line did they have to unhook more than just that line if so, when they were replacing the line or lines did they hook them back to the proper tap in the tank? There is at least one case where the engine was hooked up to the generator feed line tap causing the engine to run out of fuel first. In this case they had all the lines off to do the job.

Pamela & Mike

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #9 – November 01, 2014, 02:33:26 pm

Quote from: Ted & Karen – November 01, 2014, 11:39:11 am

Tried and tried, starting the generator and had to boost switch on and still cranking but no fire.
. . .
then I let generator run while I unhooked and moved the toad.

Hey gang, Ted said he ran the generator. By my understanding, that requires at least 1/4 tank of fuel.

Trent

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #10 – November 02, 2014, 07:53:03 am

Quote from: Ted & Karen – November 01, 2014, 12:00:48 pm

I have the 8.3 ISC engine. Don't know where the fuel solenoid is.

The fuel shutoff solenoid is only on the mechanical engines.
If I'm not mistaken, the ISC is electronic.

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #11 – November 02, 2014, 08:49:23 am

Another occasional issue involves the tank itself.

Insure there is no trash laying/floating at the bottom of the tank.
This trash will block the fuel inlet and drive's you nutz in trying to find this issue.

Typically this trash is a piece of rag or paper that is too large to be sucked into the fuel system which floats over the fuel inlet and stay's there until the engine re-start procedure is run.

I've found everything from shop towels and pieces of whatever,
floating in/at the bottom of a fuel tank(s) over the years.. pc

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #12 – November 02, 2014, 04:45:33 pm

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I had 1/2 tank fuel and did not turn hard before it kicked out. Also it had been running the whole time I was teaching Karen how to hook up the toad ( going to Ladies Driving School next week).

I read that sometimes a hard start can be due to low voltage from batteries. When I first started up I was hooked up to shore power and had boost switch on, so plenty of charging. However, after it died, I noticed volts on my VMS were showing 10.5 approximately. Could the ECM put it into starve mode in low voltage? I put my battery charger on my 4.5 year old Redtops (2 of them). We will see how they react when we leave. Being a full timer, I cycle my start batteries many more times than those occasional travelers.

If still having trouble, I will get them load tested and replace if needed.

Being full time, would I be better off looking at Group 31 batteries instead of 34? Advantages and disadvantages??

Thanks again all

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #13 – November 02, 2014, 05:32:52 pm

Ted,

If you have that low of voltage shortly after you were plugged in you may have a bad battery that is pulling the system down. Separate the batteries charge and load test them. Make sure all the battery cable ends are clean along with the post. You may also have a charging problem in that the alternator wasn't charging. It is also possible that your inverter/converter isn't charging. With the voltage that low it could be effecting the ECM as it don't like to preform up to snuff with low voltage.

Pamela & Mike

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #14 – November 02, 2014, 05:48:26 pm

P&M have good advice. Nice to have a plug in digital voltmeter for one or each of the lighter sockets. ECM does not like low voltage. If you use the boost switch to start, it's hard to tell start battery condition. Isolate and load test as posted above.

Group 31 is a commercial size and usually has a shorter warranty than a 34 series. They are a bit bigger, much heavier and always a good choice in my opinion.

Pierce

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #15 – November 02, 2014, 06:16:14 pm

Thanks P & M and Pierce.

That is what I am thinking- perhaps a bad battery.

Inverter/charger is keeping house batteries charged up fine, its the starter batteries I am concerned about. Also, after the coach has been run for a while and I stop, like I did on the way here, it starts fine with the boost switch on. So I am assuming the alternator is charging the batteries but they don't hold the charge while sitting in a campground.

If I do need to replace them, should I stick with Redtops or change to group 31? I see they are heavier, and I might have to modify my wires to do it, so would I get that much more benefit? Trying to learn from the experts.

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #16 – November 02, 2014, 06:35:45 pm

I have only used the boost switch once in Yellowstone with temps in the teens and no block heat. Always a good question for owners to ask themselves, "If I use the boost switch every time I start, how can I possibly tell how good the start batteries, terminal connections and cables are?"

I like Duralast batteries (31 series about $130 @ Autozone) as they are made by Johnson Controls and get good reviews on most battery forums. Ours came with 3 engine/start batteries and I replaced them before we started home from the east coast when we picked up our coach. They were out of 31s so I bought 34s instead. Still working well. Group 31s are about 10-15% bigger looking but when you pick one up, you really notice the difference. With batteries, weight is lead and translates to more cranking capacity. Plus, they usually have more distance between the plates and the bottom of the battery. Autozone carries them across the U.S. and Mexico. Costco/Sam's Club/Walmart have some HD batteries and also have stores across the U.S. and Mexico. Check O'Reilly's too. John will know about Canada.

I have twin digital voltmeters (one engine, one house) on the dash where the old Audit display was. I constantly scan the voltages for any sign of an abnormal reading. I use one of the old Audit switches to turn them on with another switch for the rear monitor.

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #17 – November 02, 2014, 06:39:56 pm

Ted,

It sounds like you are getting most of your starting energy from your coach batteries by way of the boost solenoid. For sure you need to check your start batteries & replace if needed. Just like Pierce said he just types faster and hit the post first.

Pamela & Mike

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #18 – November 02, 2014, 06:49:41 pm

Some years ago, one of my three red top batteries had a shorted cell. That one bad battery worked to discharge the good ones whenever it sat. I could start without the boost switch for a while after shutting down, ny time later i needed the boost switch. I separated the three batteries, and found one sitting at 10 volts. I kept that one disconncted and reconnected the two good batteries, and ran that way for a few weeks until replacing the bad one.

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #19 – November 02, 2014, 07:13:41 pm

Start with cables. Clean and tighten. Simple Cheap stuff first

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #20 – November 02, 2014, 08:36:23 pm

Dude---
If you got to 10.5 volts, your electronic control systems will shut down due to low voltage!
It does this to protect it's self from failure.
I have had this happen to my boat electronics many times while making long night passages. 10.5 volts is the "No Go" zone. Look for the reason it got this low.
Ockham's Razor. All things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually correct.

However, don't pay too much attention to me, I'm in south Texas deer hunting, and there might be Whiskey involved!

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #21 – November 03, 2014, 08:23:23 am

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – November 02, 2014, 06:35:45 pm

I have only used the boost switch once in Yellowstone with temps in the teens and no block heat. Always a good question for owners to ask themselves, "If I use the boost switch every time I start, how can I possibly tell how good the start batteries, terminal connections and cables are?"

I couldn't agree with Pierce more. Using the boost switch on a regular basis should be a NO NO! If you need the boost switch something is wrong with your system. If you have problems starting with the boost switch on then you are really in trouble.

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #22 – November 03, 2014, 09:31:29 am

FWIW, at GV in TN two years ago Hames Triana said he would recomend using boost in for every diesel (coach) start, just make sure to have boost on before cranking (vs. throwing boost on during cranking)

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #23 – November 03, 2014, 09:38:32 am

Like others, doubled the 2/0 cables between the engine starting batteries, both + & - cables, now zero starting difference between with or without boost switch.
Single 2/0 cables are light for good starting. Key is to measure (If you can) the voltage drop across each cable while starter is engaged. Cummins spec. is max .2 VDC drop.
Yes, we get along with a much poorer setup and never know the difference until we need a new starter, then wonder WHY.

Re: Coach had hic up on Ok Pow Wow

Reply #24 – November 03, 2014, 10:36:49 am

Anyone remember when Chevy Corvettes used aluminum cables from the battery to the starter? I think manufactures may recommend using a boost switch to start because they are very aware of shortcomings either in the number of batteries or in the cables they have installed. Like Dave says, if you can tell the difference starting on a cold morning no boost vs boost, you have a deficiency in the number or size of batteries, cables, etc. You can't sweep a burned out starter under the carpet.

Turbo direct injection diesels usually have a lower compression ratio than non-turbo engines. The starter will spin them slightly faster but they don't generate as much heat on the compression stroke as their non-turbo cousins. Full juice to the starter will make a big difference especially in winter.

Years ago, I changed a VW pickup from 6V to 12V by moving components over from a wreck I bought. I had a 12V doghouse with alternator but didn't want to change the flywheel to match the teeth on the starter so left the 6V starter installed. Amazing how fast an engine will start when turned over rapidly. Starter lasted for years until I sold it.

Pierce

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