New Driver Seat?

Topic: New Driver Seat? (Read 1914 times) previous topic - next topic

New Driver Seat?

January 20, 2015, 07:49:02 pm

At the Tampa Supershow I couldn't help but to notice the direction the driver seats have headed versus my 99 U320. Instead of a plushy Cadillac like leather villa seat like I have the seats are very much more like a racing seat or typical bus or even automotive seat. Bolsters, massage, heating, cooling and air ride in the seat. For whatever reason I find myself sitting slightly cockeyed in my villa seat. Maybe it's my portly stature, or maybe it's just the location of the accelerator pedal but who knows. Has anyone bought one of the Knoedler seats used in the newer models? Pricing looks to be about $1K each. They felt firm but from my experience driving BMW's the somewhat firm seats tend to be the most comfortable for long hauls. Just curious what people have done if anything with the front seats.

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #1 – January 20, 2015, 08:05:26 pm

Knoedler's run $5-6K. Some like them, some not so much. Sit in one first before you buy. We were at FOT checking out seats today. No choices made yet.

Roger

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #2 – January 20, 2015, 09:31:58 pm

I purchased a VW Jetta a few years back, the seats VERY firm, didn't think I would like them, but you could ride all day and never tire. I am sold on the firm feel.

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #3 – January 20, 2015, 11:31:55 pm

The Knoedler's seats can be had from $900 up to $2500 online.

Truck Seat Knoedler Chief

see ya
ken

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #4 – January 20, 2015, 11:48:41 pm

You are right ... but add in the air compressor, heat and cool, shipping and upholstery to match and you quickly get to the $5K that FT is quoting.

That is a bunch no matter what. But almost every one that has one says they are great. I am waiting for a report from Jeff S.

Roger

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #5 – January 21, 2015, 10:36:19 am

Quote from: Home2fromHastings – January 20, 2015, 11:48:41 pm

That is a bunch no matter what. But almost every one that has one says they are great. I am waiting for a report from Jeff S.

Also get Carol's viewpoint, if she's driven the coach since they got their Knoedler. We went with the regular Villas similar to what was being installed in the Nimbus in 2011 and discovered they sit higher and further away from the steering wheel. I have to use a back pillow to reach the pedals. We're now considering swapping out for a Knoedler as well, if we knew it would help me find a more satisfactory driving position.

There are also a couple of different models of Knoedler. Need to figure out which one works best for our coaches/backsides...

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #6 – January 21, 2015, 11:37:46 am

We sat in a number of seats prior to putting in ours. We looked at the Nimbus and the Air seat and found the one we liked and said, we want that one. So they had the numbers on the material and they ordered the insert and the seat made up and had the Phenix passenger seat put in too. I love the Air Seat. It has lots of adjustments and I can move it around a bit and Linda has no problem reaching either when she drives. though that is usually not very far by her choice. Oh she did go to ladies driving school too and she says who is the smart one, I can sit and sleep and relax and knit and surf and email and you have to drive......

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #7 – January 21, 2015, 02:50:54 pm

Do you end up with just a lap belt or is the shoulder belt still there? Looking at the pictures I did not see where the shoulder belt would route, just curious.

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #8 – January 21, 2015, 09:52:12 pm

There was a question from Jim McNeece about four weeks ago about Air Ride Driver's Seats:
Air ride driver's seat (split from On two topics ... )

The question came about the time that I was going in for back surgery. With post surgery complications, I haven't done much more than browse the Forum. So here's my input:

After driving some Liberty and Marathon Prevost conversions and Newells with air seats, I became an enthusiast. I have studied air ride seat options for years. I liked them immediately, but, for a whole host of reasons, I'm not sure that they are for everybody.

Our 1998 U270 started out with the Flexsteel faux leather standard issue pilot and co-pilot seats. I always found those to be a bit soft, cold in the cold, hot in the hot and eternally "damp" seats. In about 50K miles, the seating material started to break down, becoming stiff and brittle where exposed to skin oils. We had close friends with a 2000 U320 that had some "like new" Villa Ultra leather seats that they were disposing of. Once I looked at the difference in the quality of the base and operating mechanisms, I wanted to make them work in the worst way, even though they were too big and made the coach feel much smaller. Long story short, they were easily incorporated and I liked them throughout the remainder of our ownership of that coach. Brenda not so much as the co-pilot seat was at least 3" too high and she was never enamored with the power foot rest. She always preferred riding in the Ekornes or on the sofa, rather than up front, regardless. But the ultra leather fabric wears like iron and never felt hot or cold to us.

Our current 2002 coach is much like John S's. The PO upgraded to the FT/Villa/Knoedler air seat and the newer style co-pilot Phenix seat in matching ultra leather (Villa w/massager). Barry Beam and Phil upgraded at the same time and there is a thread that addresses that.

Now to the goods and bads (from my perspective). Not everyone is going to see things the same way, so just take my comments as input that may or not have any applicability to you.
· As compared to ISRI (Isringhausen), RECARO, USSC, Bostrom and various other manufacturers that I have tried, I MUCH prefer the Knoedler Power Chief (the ultimate motorhome air seat version that Foretravel/Villa has typically used). The ISRI is the more popular OEM air seat in Prevost conversions, Newells. RECARO is great in a Porsche. Not so in the bus/trucking industry designs. I like Barry Beams and Phil Bostrom's decision to go with Knoedler.
New, ISRI's are impressive but I have driven used coaches that show early deterioration in ISRI seat quality:
o seating surface cushions losing their resiliency/quality,
o broken switches and sloppy actuation, rattles, etc.
o The worst part is that in most Prevosts, the seats are fixed (don't swivel) to be used as seating group furniture.
o Newell adds their own base that (many times) is a nightmare to jockey from the driving to seating group configuration. So much work that I understand why many never do it more than once or twice. Some Newells work . Others are a nightmare to work.
· The Knoedler/Villa Power Chief conversion seems to utilize only the very best in terms of material quality, ease of conversion from drive to seating group configuration (ours converts in seconds from one to the other with no back and forth jockeying), decent looks as living group furniture (ISRI's always look starkly commercial to me).
· The Knoedler "Grand Chief" sounds more grand but does not have the power seat back tilt function and a few options are not available in the Grand Chief. The Knoedler Power Chief is the top of the Knoedler line.
· The Knoedler "power swivel" is not a FT concern. That is a Knoedler option that allows ease of truck cab egress/ingress by partial swivel. The swivel function in the Foretravel/Knoedler/Villa build is a Villa added function with the requisite Villa quality, over safe design in the Villa supplied base. The swivel function sequence on our seat is;
o simply lift and hold up the rear skirt
o manually release the driving position lock on the street side of the seat
o manually rotate the seat,
o release the skirt
o Move "fore and aft" to position to seating group liking
· For those concerned about lap vs. shoulder belts, the Knoedler is strictly a lap belt. The seat belt structure stays fixed during rotation (that's why one has to lift the rear skirt). I detest shoulder belts so the lap belt is a plus for me, but I understand if not for you.
· The seat belt does move with the air seat upper structure, so that as the air seat suspension compresses and rebounds (6 inch travel), the seat belt does not change (tighten or loosen).
· I think that all of the FT seats are 23". It could probably be ordered in 21", but having used several 21" ISRI's in SOB's, I highly recommend against that. The 21" seats are extremely tight for men near or over 200 lbs. Many women find the seat arms to be unusable on the 21" seats.
· The eight electrical power functions are in addition to (and add additional range to the Knoedler air height position). The physically moveable bottom seat cushion length (fore and aft by about 2", to accommodate longer legs), and the eight air pressure lumbar and side bolster firmness/support functions, heating element and cooling element (an ambient air blower that exhausts air through the perforated seat bottom and back surfaces) add tremendous adjustability and customization. If you fit the seat, it is hard to imagine how it could be made to be more "tunable".
· Unfortunately, if you are tall and lanky and your partner is short and/or "sturdy", only one is going to derive the full benefits of an air seat.
o It is, after all, an air piston that you are riding on, so it must have enough air pressure to "float" relative to the occupant's weight.
o There is an external regulator, that taps into the coach air system, to set and regulate the seat's air supply. The external regulator sets max allowable incoming pressure. The seat up/down air button preloads the piston to get the occupant to ride height.
o Too much pressure in the piston and you "top out" when you go over a rise that "un-weights" you.
o Too little pressure and you bottom out when you reach the bottom of a dip that "bottoms" you. So you need to be floating near the middle of the six inch air piston range.
o That means that in order to realize the seat benefits, any driver must be riding on three inches of air and that MAY place shorter drivers too high to comfortably reach the throttle and brake and floor. The seat up/down electrical controls simply don't provide enough range to get them low enough to be able to ride on three inches of air and reach the floor.
o That is the case for Brenda. She has to run the air cylinder at the very low end, whereby she only gets an inch or two of air piston benefit and then she is often just sitting on a fancy lumbar/bolster seat, as it bottoms out.
o One quirk (maybe) of our seat is that the seat will not raise us on air pressure alone. Before one enters the seat, one has to fully inflate the air piston, so that the piston is fully extended high, again, before one sits on the seat. Then let out enough pressure so that, for your body weight, you are at the middle of the piston range. I haven't figured out how to overcome that or if it can be overcome. It was the same with several ISRI's that I have used before, so I think it's part of the "beast". FOT had no guidance for me when I asked.
o Another quirk of the system is that the piston loses some of that precharge as you go down the road, Thus, after a couple hours driving, the seat will be riding lower until your next stop when you can get out of the seat and recharge the preload to get back to the middle of the piston range. FOT said that was normal. Once again, maybe I have a slight leak that I can correct and change that.
o A third quirk is that once you are parked and in group seating mode, as the pressure in the coach air system decays, the seat is going to lose lumbar, bolster and ride height air and it will sort of just "wilt in place". So the seat is not going to be as comfortable, at rest, as it is in motion, unless you start the "aux. air" and pump things up before company arrives. Everyone always wants to try the air seat, so put it on your pre-company arrival check list. Once again, I don't know if this is standard or if I may have chair or check valve leaks that once corrected will reduce the issues.
Bottom line?:
If you are a technology type and love to have the ability to make things perfect (DW is an On/Off and then don't bother me), and you enjoy being able to fine tune that perfection at all times, then you would really enjoy this, and even more than the ISRI, RECARO options, I am sure. Just make sure that the installation ($5K to $6K including matching custom Ultra Leather) will place the primary driver in the correct range of motion. Our chair is installed as low as possible, in terms of the mounting pedestal height, and it isn't quite low enough for the DW (5'2"). Another 2" lower and it could be perfect for us both. But there is nothing more that can be taken off of the chair to further lower it. Range of motion, fore and aft, is good for both of us. For me, at 5'11" and 190 lbs., I am well placed within the air piston vertical range and have lots of electrical range to play with in addition.
I love the ability to fine tune all of the functions especially the lumbar/ bolster and the perforation air flows. We do not have the optional built in massage units in our Knoedler. Our Co-Pilot's FOT/Villa/Phenix chair, in matching Ultra Leather, has that. I use that chair but Brenda, like with the previous monster 2000 Villa co-pilot's chair, has no interest in it. That chair is another whole comparison that I won't bore you with here.
So attached are a few pictures of ours.
Half of us love it. Actually, before I retired, Brenda used to drive at least 50% of the time. Now she would rather not drive except wide open spaces, so she loves this air chair too. More reason not to drive!
Hope this helps with any questions you may have and ask away if I've overlooked something that I can help with.
Neal

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #9 – January 22, 2015, 01:34:09 pm

Your research and analysisi is great, cleared up many questions.

Two questions about the 21" seat. One of our major complaints with the Villa seats is the size, they're just too big. I'm 6' and 190, Molly is 5' 7" and perfect weight. The only Knoedler seat over 21" seems to be the Power Chief (option on the Grand Chief). Haven't noticed a lot of smaller truck drivers so it's not clear why 21" is too small. You also mentioned women have trouble with the arm rests on the 21" seats. Why is this?

Again, your post on these seats is by far the most comprehensive. Many thanks.

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #10 – January 22, 2015, 09:11:29 pm

Quote from: morninghill – January 22, 2015, 01:34:09 pm

..................Two questions about the 21" seat. One of our major complaints with the Villa seats is the size, they're just too big. I'm 6' and 190, Molly is 5' 7" and perfect weight. The only Knoedler seat over 21" seems to be the Power Chief (option on the Grand Chief). Haven't noticed a lot of smaller truck drivers so it's not clear why 21" is too small. You also mentioned women have trouble with the arm rests on the 21" seats. Why is this?
Again, your post on these seats is by far the most comprehensive. Many thanks........................

Mike,
Dang!
I lost another draft, so I need to start over again!
I've got to figure out what I'm doing wrong!

Why the 23" seat vs. the 21"? And is 21" too cramped for some ladies?

First, I don't have the original paperwork on my Knoedler, so I am somewhat assuming, based on my own measurements and what I've had for experience with 21" ISRI seats, that ours is a 23" (See the attached photos). By using the attached pictures and then measuring some of your own familiar desk, coach and living room chairs, I think that you can sort out your preferences, but of course, trying actual air chairs for size is better.

If my 23" assumption is correct, I find that "our 23" Knoedler" is the perfect size for me and is about as tight as Brenda can use. The 18" between our Knoedler arms is perfect for me and good for both of us. An inch less would be tight for Brenda. I think that a 21" Knoedler would have only 16" between the arms.

As far as why truck driver's might want 21" -- not sure. I would wonder if perhaps short haul drivers don't use the armrests. I thought that the Knoedlers were all available in both 21" and 23" designs.

In terms of seat benefit, the air piston and the variable bolster pressure probably do my back as much or even more good than the adjustable lumbar supports do. The air piston takes away what little shock makes it through our already superb suspensions and the bolsters mold the hips into a proper "U-shape". The adjustable bolster firmness makes for good long distance back posture and endurance.

As far as our ladies go -- the ladies are blessed with the miracle of life-giving and, as such, are blessed with more generous pelvic regions/hips than us guys, so the distance limitations between the seat arms and the seat bolsters may be different for them.

The Knoedler 23" chair appears (and is) physically much smaller than the standard Villa Driver's chair options. But the proportions are such that the Knoedler remains aesthetically appealing whereas (in my estimation) the ISRI always appears very industrial and starkly smaller (as far as being an appealing seating group chair).

I should mention that the Knoedler and ISRI designs both use much better arm designs than the Villa overstuffed furniture designs. First the arms are much narrower but they are very nicely padded and they are more ruggedly mounted to a sturdier seat back frame. They are designed to each repeatedly withstand 200 lbs. of simultaneous down-force. Second, they have knurled adjustment knobs that provide for infinite rake adjustment. Third they all but aesthetically disappear when they are folded up. Simple, elegant design.

So, hope this answers your questions. Let me know if you have others.
Neal

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #11 – January 23, 2015, 06:45:19 pm

Steve, there is only a lap belt. I hated the shoulder belt on my villa as it would always jam up inside it.

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #12 – January 23, 2015, 09:16:41 pm

Quote from: Michelle – January 21, 2015, 10:36:19 am

Also get Carol's viewpoint, if she's driven the coach since they got their Knoedler. We went with the regular Villas similar to what was being installed in the Nimbus in 2011 and discovered they sit higher and further away from the steering wheel. I have to use a back pillow to reach the pedals. We're now considering swapping out for a Knoedler as well, if we knew it would help me find a more satisfactory driving position.

There are also a couple of different models of Knoedler. Need to figure out which one works best for our coaches/backsides...

Why did you guys replace original seats and what improvement did you notice on the 2011 models ?

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #13 – January 23, 2015, 09:30:15 pm

Quote from: Jimmyjnr – January 23, 2015, 09:16:41 pm

Why did you guys replace original seats and what improvement did you notice on the 2011 models ?

The passenger seat had developed a wobble that couldn't be tightened out and the leather had worn quite a bit (the original owner apparently had a cat that still had its claws, too). We both found the excessively-wide "buddy" passenger seat uncomfortable as well - left, right, or middle, nothing worked. The newer seats have Ultraleather Brisa covering, so they are cooler and more durable and easier to clean. Our OEM seats were a smooth, kind of putty beige-colored leather Villa model that really did nothing for the interior. I think they are in a deer stand in East Texas now.

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #14 – January 23, 2015, 09:49:41 pm

Do the newer seats have passenger power foot rest, DW uses it for back issues

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #15 – January 23, 2015, 09:54:03 pm

The passenger one does, but as David Flanagan will remind you, it's a foot REST not a leg LIFT. Raise the footrest before resting your legs or you can strip the plastic gears.

Here is the thread with our new seats Our driver/passenger chair and carpet upgrade

If our OEM seats had been in better shape we might have just had them recovered (with the Ultraleather Brisa), but since the passenger seat had multiple issues, we opted to just replace them.

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #16 – January 23, 2015, 10:08:36 pm

Having too much sperience with real good truck seating where you can drive all day comfy and not tiring, makes me wonder about the Bostrom truck seating available today that might work in the coach.
Understand many will choke on the thought of a nice comfy truck seat with many features needed including the 23" models, most are the 21" but dreaded by most, but the most fancy will be in the $1,300 area, of course there are many options.
Not pushing, just a thought if your into long days of driving and comfy is more important than style.
Take a snoop at their info.

BOSTROMSEATING.COM

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #17 – January 24, 2015, 05:16:36 am

I have a air ride side from a city bus that I'm going to install to replace the horrible flexsteel that hurts my back. Eventually I'll budget a nice new seat with bells and whistles.

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #18 – January 24, 2015, 07:37:06 am

I shall be replacing my drivers seat in the near future.

Then brown spots encountered from last week's attemped triip will not come out ! !

( the yellow stains in the passenger seat have been removed OK )

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #19 – January 24, 2015, 09:18:26 am

Quote from: Dave M – January 23, 2015, 10:08:36 pm

Having too much sperience with real good truck seating where you can drive all day comfy and not tiring, makes me wonder about the Bostrom truck seating available today that might work in the coach.
....
BOSTROMSEATING.COM

I've been looking at lots of the truck options, be nice to see all/some of them in person and see how they feel etc and get some real size measurements. We have only test sat the Knoedler power chief so its great to get real usage information on them.

Our current seats are a lot more comfy than the what came with the coach but they are a bit taller and deeper front to back. This makes it a bit more snug getting in/out of the drivers spot but its fine while you are on the road. It also means if you are below say 5'6" or so you will not be able to adjust them to a comfortable driving position. It also takes some gyrations to turn the seat around for when you are camped but it can be done.

Would like to find a drivers seat that fit a bit better in that space but driving comfort, and ability for both of us to be able to drive is whats most important to us.

Quote from: Bill Chaplin – January 24, 2015, 07:37:06 am

I shall be replacing my drivers seat in the near future.

Then brown spots encountered from last week's attemped triip will not come out ! !

( the yellow stains in the passenger seat have been removed OK )

Well at least you know what color fabric to get now !

Re: New Driver Seat?

Reply #20 – January 24, 2015, 09:56:21 am

Quote from: Steve – January 24, 2015, 09:18:26 am

I've been looking at lots of the truck options, be nice to see all/some of them in person and see how they feel etc and get some real size measurements

Steve,

Have you thought about going by the Peterbilt show room in Denton? In the past they have had a large selection of seats and things to choose from for a custom built truck. Another place that have seats in the show room was MHC Kenworth .

Pamela & Mike

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