Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

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Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

January 31, 2015, 10:20:53 am

Hello all,

I am new to this forum. I did checked a Foretravel for sale in Cleveland TX yesterday and here is what I find and would love to hear opinions and comments on those issues.

Here is link to this Grand Villa for sale:
1993 Used Foretravel Grand Villa 3600 at RV Station Online, OK, IID 13047325

The floorplan, storage etc of this GV 3600 is perfectly fine for my full time RV'ing needs.
However here are the issues I found:
1. Discoloration and bit bugling along the "seams" inside the top part of big closet which is sign
of leaks.
2. Discoloration (sign of leaks) along the bottom part of both side windows in the bedroom.
3. The insulation in engine bay is flake/powder-like, have to replace the entire insulation in engine bay as well front of that RV (where radiator is at).
4. Some fresh leaks at the bottom of Allison transmission.
5. Left fender is partially damaged so are the power steps (no steps, bent support frame for steps)
6. On the roof I found hairline cracks (like 4 or 5 hairline cracks within 5" x 5" area) in rearmost part of roof and other hairline cracks (bit bigger gap) and some bulge/bump at the front part of roof above driver's seat.

When I showed those issues to salesman and he kept saying "As is" and then he offered me $15,000 for that one. I don't think that RV has been garage kept like their ads said. What concern me the most is leaks along the seams (discolorations) and some bumps inside the closet as well along the bottom sides of window in bedroom and the hairline cracks and a bump on roof. Dried out (becomes powder when I touch it) insulation is odd to me.

What would the approx repair cost for those above? Should I redo the seal along the seams on the roof and not worry about something inside the wall (i.e. wood frame rotting etc...) What about repair on the roof?

Thanks in advance for any comments/opinions.

Jamie

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #1 – January 31, 2015, 11:23:49 am

Roof leaks with hidden damage are darned near impossible to estimate without a professional assessing the coach. You don't know how long it was leaking, is there mold, is there rust, is there delamination?

Besides the obvious, how are the mechanicals? Was the driveline maintained (probably not since there are transmission leaks)? What is the condition of the bulkheads?

Most folks say budget $10K for your first year repairs/minor updates on an "average" coach. This one could potentially be multiples of that.

Or you could find a newer, extremely well-maintained U280 in Oklahoma being sold by a well-known member here, for $39,500 and not worry about the unknown. FOR SALE, 1996 FORETRAVEL U280 & 2001 JEEP GRAND CHEROKEE 4X4

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #2 – January 31, 2015, 12:06:24 pm

Mostly agree with Michelle. Stored outside is never the best and roof cracks usually start with leaks. The leaks soften the area between the glass and the wood bonded to it. The wood gives it strength and stability. The total thickness is about .400 inches. To me, any corrosion or several leaks is a no go. Unless you are up to doing the repairs yourself, it can be very costly. Examination by an experienced owner/inspector can reduce the risks.

There is no such thing as a coach with nothing to worry about. You can minimize your risks but as members have discovered, transmission intercoolers can suddenly fail or a engine valve may break destroying the engine as had happened earlier to another member at Quartzsite last year. If it rolls down the road or just sits, it's going to cause trouble sooner or later. Just depends on how much trouble. As experienced by the Quartzsite attendees this year, even late, very well maintained coaches do break down. Sometimes only a mile apart! Whether it's the I-10 jinx or rolling snake eyes, we all take our chances and keep our fingers crossed.

Pierce

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #3 – January 31, 2015, 12:31:36 pm

Amazing, This is the first GV I have seen that has the same, identical layout as our 1989 GV!
Different is engine and changes around the sides of the bed, along with the louvered compartment doors by the engine. Also, our gen door is louvered.
The ceiling is not the vinyl with buttons and center strip. The refrig seems more like residential. The shower in the bathroom? I can't determine if there is adequate headroom (ours doesn't have enough unless one keeps the head in the skylight) and the dump compartment has the discharge opening for the tanks VERY close to the exterior wall--only a problem if adding a third valve.
Re the wall discoloration under the windows--possibly due to windows accidently left open while raining or condensation from coach being used during extremely cold weather.
Didn't see any indication of Jake brake or retarder.

Looks like the narrow coach like our '89. I would recommend if going full time that PO look for the wider models from same time period span.

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #4 – January 31, 2015, 12:50:16 pm

The discoloration under the windows might just be from condensation; between the propane stove and the propane furnace and people breathing in-and-out there can be a fair bit of condensation in the morning. Especially if the night is cold.

The closet issue might be water from the refrigerator vent getting into the area. On our 1993 U225 that vent is right next to that closet.

The forward TV is an upgrade which does show some attention to the coach by a previous owner. I much prefer to see upgrades. Check to see what the converter/charger is; if it's a big square box (usually mounted on the back side of the bulkhead behind the entry stairs and accessible from the driver's side storage bin) then it's a stock battery-burner.

Interesting coach. Not one of the standards with a six-speed Allison transmission and the Cummins 8.3 it would be more like a U280 but it has older style (1980s) basement bin doors. Also the bedroom does not have side tables (which we feel is a "must have" for us and are seldom found on anything other than FTs).

Craig

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #5 – January 31, 2015, 12:58:48 pm

This is an ORED. That is Oshkosh Rear Engine Diesel. So, very limited basement storage.

Oshkosh sold out to Freightliner.

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #6 – January 31, 2015, 01:34:14 pm

Brett, didn't Oshkosh sell the chassis design to Freightliner? Not the entire company? Oshkosh Truck is about 14 miles from where I grew up, but that was in the age before electric lights, so things might have changed without my being aware.

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #7 – January 31, 2015, 02:07:25 pm

I would suggest to get on the roof and take a look. It should be smooth fiberglass. Walk round and check for soft or springing areas as well as cracks. Hairline cracks will not leak but will eventually develop into larger ones that will. Anywhere there is a screw penetration for anything is a potential leak path if the PO didn't keep up on it.
Saw a similar coach on the board before with an 8.3. It had a 6 speed 3000 series transmission.

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #8 – January 31, 2015, 02:50:50 pm

Discoloration on the walls under windows coupled to cracks and bulges on the roof are a clear indication of a roof leak and probably some delamination. The roof can be repaired, however if you have it done at Foretravel you should expect about $5-6K per 10 foot section of roof. They will do a fantastic job, you want be able to tell they did it, but it is pricy. They basically replace the roof except for the aluminum box beam framework.

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #9 – February 01, 2015, 09:21:23 am

Since the coach is so close to Nac it would be easy to get evaluations and estimates of repair before making an offer.

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #10 – February 01, 2015, 11:48:49 am

spring coach. hydraulic disk brakes. fast driver in the rockies may not appreciate the brakes.

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #11 – February 01, 2015, 12:28:49 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – January 31, 2015, 12:58:48 pm

This is an ORED. That is Oshkosh Rear Engine Diesel. So, very limited basement storage.

Oshkosh sold out to Freightliner.

I'm confused about the big hump up front between the seats. It looks as if it's an engine hump. What's under it?

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #12 – February 01, 2015, 12:30:41 pm

I believe its the fresh water tank.

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #13 – February 01, 2015, 12:51:15 pm

Correct. Same as on other Foretravels of that vintage-- a big help in balancing front to rear weight distribution.

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #14 – February 02, 2015, 06:47:25 pm

Hi all,

Great replies here. Yeah they do make sense.
Nice user community here just like Lazy Daze's.

I have 2004 24' "Baby" Lazy Daze FD which I use for local outing (mainly disc golf as it is my #1 favorite "hobby"

and I do CrossFit too. (I do bring Concept 2 D rower with me in RV as well barbells, kettlebells).

I do have 2003 30' LD Island Bed on deposit but the challenge for me is only 1,000 pounds available for cargo when fuel, propane and water tanks are full and including me and my wife. So I would have to carry very light which is challenge since I still have to bring my rower, limited set of barbells (up to 85 pounds), 44 lbs kettlebbells and the like.

True that the weakest link in coaches are seals. I have checked one LD IB in (1999) in GA and it is rotten to the core (very black compost soil literally coming out of walls) and I have checked two Foretravel (1991 U225 Uni and that 1994 GV 3600) and both are not in good shape and have leaks as well issues I have mentioned.

I am curious how often does FT's seals need to be replaced/reapplied?

Yes Jimmy's 1996 U280 do looks very nice for sure. In fact I have emailed him. I think that coach is good fit for my needs being a full timer.

Yes the cost to maintain and operate is quite much higher in Class A than Class C for sure, but I quite handy so I think I can do routine maintenance by myself. I guess unexpected engine failures is verry small percentage but they do happen. I believe C8.3 engine should last long time.

One thing I will have to have towing included in insurance policy cause I did had 1999 Fleetwood Expedition which broke down in middle of nowhere in NY (upstate NY) and had to be towed and paid $900 for it only to have ECU chip replaced under warranty!

Agreed about discoloration at the bottom of side windows in bedroom are due to windows being open during rain, that is most likely.

Yeah wide body is preferable (I believe wide body is 102" right?) so I can put Concept 2 D rower in "living room" and row while watching TV.

That 1994 GV 3600 has residential fridge that onlly runs on 120v.

Kemahjohn said that roof repairs at FT would cost $5-$6 per 10 feet section of roof. If there is a leak/cracks in one area, then have to remove the whole roof (36 feet long)?

Thanks

Jamie

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #15 – February 02, 2015, 06:59:10 pm

might have been garage kept... FOR A WHILE
asking price of 15-16K is consistent with what I have been seeing for a number of similar GV's around the country.
HOWEVER, this one has a Cummins 8.3L whereas many I have seen for sale had a less desirable 5.9L or a CAT 3208. I'd be surprised if a 1993 had a six speed, from looking at the specs Barry has kindly posted at BeamAlarm.
As previously stated, expect to spend (not "invest") another $10K soon, one way or the other.

There is little similarity between a LD Class C and a FT diesel pusher, other than they are each highly regarded in their niche.
You should prepare a chart of what you want and don't want, then check the boxes and compare scores. Maybe neither is the right RV for you. How is the minimal basement storage of an ORED ideal for full-timing?

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #16 – February 02, 2015, 07:23:03 pm

The entire roof does not have to be removed to repair sections with leaks-- Foretravel cuts out sections that are bad and replace using the aluminum cross members as seam support. Usually there is foam damage as well as plywood barrier. They replace it all.

Do not fear the Cat 3208T engine, it is just as good as the 8.3 Cummins-- very reliable with very few problems. It is an all mechanical engine, no engine computer, mechanical injection pump and is trouble free-- I own two of them.

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #17 – February 02, 2015, 07:59:05 pm

Quote from: jclark93 – February 02, 2015, 06:47:25 pm

Kemahjohn said that roof repairs at FT would cost $5-$6 per 10 feet section of roof.

Just a note in case you misread - that post said $5-6 Thousand per 10 foot section, not $5-6 dollars

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #18 – February 02, 2015, 09:20:19 pm

FOT did a half roof on my coach a couple of years ago. $3500 for the fiberglass work. Can't remember how much for paint. Less than a $1000 IIRC. Sorry no pictures of the finished product but looks new and couldn't tell where the old roof finished and the new one started. The coach and roof was painted the year before.

see ya
ken

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #19 – February 03, 2015, 10:14:43 am

We are the proud owners of our second 1993 Foretravel. The first was a pristine 93, U225. We now have a fully factory restored 93, U300 and have loved them both so I will share my perspective.

Signs of water leaks in a coach 23 years old are common. Over the years, caulking failures at the seams, of the front and rear caps, seals around the air conditioner openings, the sky light and the windows often occurs. The key is how quickly the leaks were repaired to prevent damage to any of the wood substructure. If there is softness in any of the wood you will probably have to have those areas replaced but keep in mind unlike many lesser quality motorhomes, the structural integrity of a Foretravel is steel framing, high density foam and fiberglass. Unless there was a huge amount of rust in the frame, leaks don't weaken the integrity of a Foretravel and wood can always be replaced if needed.

Cracks in the roof of a 23 year old coach is not unusual or unexpected. If they are surface cracks, no problem. They can be caulked to insure that allow water entry or better yet repaired by a competent fiberglass repair shop. However if water has entered the cracks and caused roof delmaination it can be a bigger problem. An easy was to check for delmination is to take a chain, like a dog chain, and drag it over the surface of the roof. If there is delamination the sound will change when the chain hits a delamination and it will sound hollow. Small areas of delam can be repaired with epoxy injection by a competent fiberglass repair shop without roof removal if the substrate is sound. If there is delam over a couple of square feet or more then removal and reglassing will probably be needed.

The blisters above the drivers area is common and not a concern unless there are attendant cracks related to the blisters. The front cap is of different construction than the rest of the roof.

I would venture to say that most if not all 23 year old coaches will have water staining in the head liner and some damage to the wood paneling somewhere in the coach. Even if it is garage kept, the caulk still ages out and is ignored until a leak occurs. I would be more concerned about the chassis. If at all possible I would prefer a Unihome rather than an ORED. I believe there are fewer problems to deal with the custom Foretravel chassis than with a truck chassis like the ORED. However I have never had an ORED or even driven one so my opinion may not be all that accurate.

I hope this helps put things in perspective. I would evaluate the coach more on how it meets your need and budget and not worry too much about water staining. Join the Fun of Foretravel ownership.

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #20 – February 03, 2015, 11:19:29 am

WOW! What a paint job looks great I'm also the new proud owner of my 92 U300 Anniversary Edition .I bid & won this U300 on eBay for 12.800 with less then 26,000 miles . With all the bells and whistles

luckily i have only notice lite water damage and i mean lite under the driver & passenger windows & it seems like something to do with the ashtrays . On a rainy day i went out and looked all over in interior and could find no leaks

However i am in need of a 8535-2 furnace control board for my front heater . I have found a Dinosaur board @ amazon for 98.00 free shipping . PS I'm in love i had a 83 FC Blue Bird what junk!!! I'm not looking forward to painting my U300 but for the life of me i have no idea how this coach turd out to be this color

it does not match the black & silver striped awnings 6 in all ?

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #21 – February 03, 2015, 12:13:18 pm

Wow what a great deal on that 92 U300 via eBay!

For me it is 2003 30' LD Island Bed OR Jimmy's 1996 U280. U280 cost $12k more than LD.

I figure the weights and after putting in mimimal barbell set (for CrossFit), kettle bells, Concept 2 D rower with fuel, propane and fresh water tanks full and including me and my wife, it will leave me only 800# of available cargo/supplies on that LD. So I would be quite close to or at GVWR limit after putting in supplies et al. We are full timers.

Not a problem with U280, plus smoother ride, more room, lots of basement storage. Of course Class A cost more to operate and higher cost to maintain.

About seals/caulking, it pays to be proactive than reactive.

I wonder how much time and effort to relace all seals/caulking with new ones? Can I do it myself or better let RV shop do it or do it at Foretravel shop?
How much would it cost if done at Foretravel shop?

For those who are well versed in economics (from very good sources, not from the sold out mainstream financial news (i.e. good ones are: Mish Shedlock, Karl Denninger, Zero Hedge, Generational Dynamics et al) we are in a major deflationary cycle/trend (too much debt that will eventually default thus contraction in money supply), so the used coach prices will come down a quite lot in coming years (withn 3-5 years from now) so we will see far much better deals in the near future.

Problem is I need a coach now

LD now and would have to carry really light or go for 1996 U280 for $12k more.... Hmm... I am more likely to go for the latter...

Thanks

Jamie

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #22 – February 03, 2015, 12:42:11 pm

I am going to use my 2015 Jeep Wrangler as TOAD and that thing weights about 3,800# (curb weight) plus I might add some things on the Jeep itself so might bring up to like 4,000# or so. Lazy Daze towing is limited to 4,000# and I guess it would be around 5,000# to 6,000# on U280. GVWR of LD is 14,500 and GCWR is 20,000, so it will be 18,500 with Jeep.

1996 U280 GVWR is 30,000 and GCWR is 36,000 so not a problem with Jeep. I am about to order SMI Stay-in-Play DUO for my Jeep as I want to be able to use Jeep as TOAD between my current 2004 24' LD FD and future coach (2003 30' LD or 1996 U280).

Thanks

Jamie

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #23 – February 03, 2015, 12:59:59 pm

Does 1996 FT or later models have ODB port? I have OBDLink MX with DashCommander iPhone app and it would be cool if I can use it on FT.

Re: Issues on 1993 Grand Villa 3600

Reply #24 – February 03, 2015, 02:51:13 pm

@lovetogo While not impossible 26,000 miles on a 92' seems unlikely. The speedometers are known to fail and be replaced. One way to check is if the current speedometer is digital or analog. The original is analog. Also you can multiply engine hours by 50 for a very rough approximation of milage.

Yeah paying for the paint hurts but I only had to cry once. I do smile every time someone compliments me on it.

Welcome to the Foretravel club! Glad to have you on board. Especially another 92'.

see ya
ken

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