likely new buyer (how to value a coach?)

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likely new buyer (how to value a coach?)

March 11, 2015, 01:26:42 pm

We (Bob and Pat), mostly me,Bob, have been looking at retiring and purchasing a used FT since our factory visit in 2000. This forum has been extremely valuable so far and contacts by members have been very prompt. As our planned visit in late May to FT via flying to Houston which will be including a visit to PPL draws near I have many questions related to the logistics of the visit with the intention of buying a coach(we will be also visiting MOT). We are likely financing through USAA and that process is still being investigated. Another concern is insurance and even though my Son is a Liberty Mutual agent I will likely enter into a plan with Caoch Net as I do not want to experience any unnecessary delay or incompetence that might go along with the towing services of LM.
At this time I have entered a number of the available coaches into NADA for their general value and have noticed that all dealers seem to have overpriced the nobslide models. Otherwise I am planning on finding a unit that seems well and currently maintained and then bargaining as I have when buying a car. This would include just walking away if prices are deemed too unmoveable.
Is it unreasonable to look at a coach and request a view of the underside via hoist or pit? I am aware of the big problems of frame separation and end cap separation so those questions will be asked early on.
We don't know how long our RV use will last and we do not plan to fulltime for the first couple of years. We still have aging parents here in the Badger state.
Thanks in advance for any and all comments and suggestions
Bob/Pat

(Edited topic title to be more descriptive - Michelle)

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #1 – March 11, 2015, 01:52:06 pm

Nada requires every additional piece of equipement to be added to the base values.

I and they know its standard. Add it anyway.

That's the way the lenders want to see it,

Versus they know what is and is not standard.

Very few places have a rack they can let you use to inspect the under carriage.

If you see lots of rusty surfaces in the wheel wheel areas you might support the coachs suspension in its raised postion and using a creeper slide underneath.

15 years of looking?

There are several components to determining a value of a used Rv.

Condition, condition, condition, equipement, miles, model year in that order.

I ran a Foretravel factory store as sales manager long ago btw.

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #2 – March 11, 2015, 02:03:32 pm

You might visit Motorhomes of Texas and save all of the other running around.
One stop, one visit, and one Foretravel ! I am focusing on that plan for myself...
And the reason, quite simply because I have had a Foretravel in past years and
know the units and from my extensive travel in the past 2 years looking at the
Foretravels all over the country ($12,000 in those expenses),
am convinced, based on MOT reputation, that now having the field narrowed
as to what unit I am most drawn to, that dealer will
be able to provide the best quality used coach available, with myself now not
having to do all of the legwork and research as I have been doing on my own.
I wish you both the best in your hunt.

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #3 – March 11, 2015, 02:30:23 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – March 11, 2015, 01:52:06 pm

Nada requires every additional piece of equipement to be added to the base values.

This is not an accurate statement and does not make sense. NADA's system is designed take into account standard equipment for the base price.

In all actuality, NADA is useless for valuing most RVs. It's based on automotive dealer data, and the amount of such especially for low-volume brands like FT render the results pretty much a crapshoot. However, it is used by some financial institutions to determine the amount they will loan against an RV (they have to point to something to determine asset value and NADA is basically all they've got).

This forum has gone round and round on the NADA topic many times before (lots of results if you do a search)

To price a coach, look at what similar coaches have sold for.

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #4 – March 11, 2015, 02:58:43 pm

I do not think anyone has a pit or hoist in Nac to look but you better block it up before going under.

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #5 – March 11, 2015, 03:08:37 pm

More useful than NADA, in my opinion, is a depreciation table which you can find somewhere on this forum. I can't remember who posted it and don't have time to look it up right now, but you can find it here. Also agree with Michelle on looking at past sales as a more accurate measure.

As for your method of walking away from a price you believe is too high: you can certainly do that, and I've done it before when buying vehicles. But just beware: you might be walking away from a great unit just because some guy at NADA had no way of valuing that coach.

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #6 – March 11, 2015, 03:13:06 pm

Garaged new condition was a large premium to me as a Foretravel sales manager long ago.

Hard to make the exterior new again.

Paid over book many times for a pristine coach with not one extra hole drilled in it.

Buyers were happy to pay for a nice coach always. More pride of ownership for them also

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #7 – March 11, 2015, 04:31:05 pm

Quote from: bogeygolfer – March 11, 2015, 03:08:37 pm

More useful than NADA, in my opinion, is a depreciation table which you can find somewhere on this forum. I can't remember who posted it and don't have time to look it up right now, but you can find it here. Also agree with Michelle on looking at past sales as a more accurate measure.

Link to Elliot's great pricing table: Coach financing chatter (split from 1996 Foretravel U270 For Sale)
Good Luck, Dave A

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #8 – March 11, 2015, 05:49:42 pm

When valuing a Foretravel many items must be taken into consideration. I doubt any of us is qualified to do that except for caflashbob on this forum. There may be a couple others who are qualified. But, at the end of the day, you'd better be in love with the coach you buy. And, it better have all the major features you need. Otherwise you may make a mistake and buy the lowest priced coach that will not satisfy you for long or overpay for the wrong coach with significant deferred maintenance.

I suggest you find a qualified person to inspect the coach you want to buy so you have a good starting point on needed repairs.

Or not. Then you can assume responsibility for all the rapairs needed.

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #9 – March 11, 2015, 06:16:17 pm

Bob and Pat, we will be back to Hastings, MN about May 1 if you want to come over and have a look-see at a 2001 36' U320 single slide.

We looked at several coaches in our search. Pride of ownership really shows in the condition of the coach. A meticulous owner will have all of the service records. After looking at and pricing many coaches equipped the way we wanted we had a pretty good idea of the actual selling prices. Asking prices were all over the map. Low miles, newer tires and batteries, inside storage, very clean and good service records are pluses.

If you have a good idea what you think is a fair and honest price make an offer and tell the buyer how you got to your price. Sellers usually respect a buyer who has done some homework. Worst case is they say no or they will begin a reasonable dialog.

From sold prices I am seeing, I think our coach is depreciating about 1% a year or less and this particular model doesn't seem to be on the market very long. We are happy campers.

Roger

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #10 – March 11, 2015, 09:36:33 pm

Bob, in the first place -- seems to me the topic is really "Likely pre-owned buyer" I was in that fraternity for a long time (as you have been). In as much as you have been looking long enough to be a post-grad, you know that NADA numbers are equivalent to SAT numbers. S O W H A T ?!? In the words of Shania Twain "That don't impress me much".
I flew one-way to San Diego, in 2011, hoping to get a one owner, garage kept, 300hp, lo mi Grand Villa at an auction. I was hoping to pay somewhere between the low and the average prices I had seen for an AVERAGE Grand Villa. Because I had not prepared to bid enough, I came home without it

don't know how much more it would have taken to get it. The winning bidder was not using his own money. His boss had told him "I want it. Get it". The bidder was pleased that he was going to be able to drive it back DOWN SOUTH

silly me for thinking an EXCEPTIONAL Foretravel (complete with linens and cookware and spare parts) could be had for low to average $$. I was a fool.

For a while, I had old Barth DP instead. I was a fool. It had more than 180k miles. It had some corrosions. It had some collision damage. Oh, but it had only one previous owner. Finally, last year, I was able to find a FT I could afford. I am the third owner. It has low miles. Partly because of the age of the coach, partly because of my ignorance, partly because of my stupidity.... there are a number of issues to address. Guess what? NEW ones often have a number of issues to address!

Considering where you reside, I doubt that you will be going to Nacogdoches routinely for service. Find a reputable, skilled motor coach OR AT LEAST diesel/heavy truck mechanic in your area. For the potential bulkhead problem with a FT Unihome, you don't need a pit or a hoist to find the problem. i infer that you have already read about it (here and/or BeamAlarm dot com). The problem need not be a deal breaker. When my coach goes into the shop at Xtreme (for STUPIDENT repairs), Mr. Stallings will check my bulkheads and my roof.

Insurance: My coach is currently insured with AAA Michigan. It is an auto policy, lacking the various supplemental coverages included with Progressive and other RV policies. Liberty Mutual's policy would probably be likewise. I am considering a switch to the plan marketed by Good Sam (underwritten by National General, formerly GMAC). You mention USAA. There is no finer auto and homeowners ins. carrier. However, I think they sub out RV's, probably to Progressive. When you compare premiums, keep in mind how much they will reduce the cost when the coach is not being used. With AAA, it is a minimum of 30 day off or 30 days on. The "off" or storage coverage is essentially nothing more than the comprehensive line item -- a nominal cost.

ps
My Barth was based primarily up there in Madison, although Dr. Yale's widow was in Phoenix or Messa, AZ when she sold it through a dealer in Messa.

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #11 – March 12, 2015, 11:40:46 am

Quote from: Mogan David – March 11, 2015, 09:36:33 pm

... silly me for thinking an EXCEPTIONAL Foretravel (complete with linens and cookware and spare parts) could be had for low to average $$.

This makes perfect sense to me. If you want to buy a good FT for NADA low then you're going to miss out on a lot of coaches. Every motor home out there - new and old - has issues. I had an idea of what a fair price was for a good FT and when I found the one I liked I paid him the money. I was lucky that I only had to drive 420 miles round-trip to inspect it.

Craig

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #12 – March 12, 2015, 11:50:41 am

My advice is when you come across one you like, buy it. If you get it cheap you can brag about it. If you pay too much you can repress the memory. When it breaks, someone here will help you fix it.
jor

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #13 – March 12, 2015, 11:58:04 am

USAA does sub out their insurance to Progressive, or at least they did in our case. I don't know if we got a good deal or a bad deal, but we just paid $875 for a year for our new to us 1998 U320 42' tag. 29 year history with USAA and no recent accidents or tickets, but I don't know what weight that pulls with Progressive on RV policy.

Susan

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #14 – March 12, 2015, 12:31:58 pm

Welcome Bob &Pat,

Just a couple of random thoughts...

If you are looking for a late 90's coach from a dealership, MOT is really your only option. If you are looking at 2001 and new you will find coaches at FOT also. I certainly wouldn't eliminate private owner sales.

If you have decided on a Foretravel, PPL maybe a waste of time. We lived 15 minutes from there, and would go look all the time. We only saw one Foretravel there, a nice GV. So unless you know they have something, it's along way from IAH airport to PPL. Now if you want to walk thru just about every other brand of SOB, it's the perfect place.

NADA is mess. If I remember correct, it valued our coach at about 60% what we paid, and we didn't over pay. I would try to get setup with a loan officer at USAA as soon as possible. Send him/her MOT or FOT listing, and ask them how they would work the financing. You should be able to get a good idea of how they are going to valve a similar coach, and how much they will be able to finance.

As far as insurance, I would start by doing a little research on "market valve" vs "agreed value". Big difference between the two. This might be more a fulltimers issue, but worth asking your son about.

Good luck, it's all worth it in the end.

Douglas

P.S. I second everything Home2FromHastings said above, and would try to take him up on his offer. You will get to see a very nice coach, with a knowledgeable owner. But be warned, it will set your bar very high.

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #15 – March 12, 2015, 01:21:20 pm

I used Miller Insurance in Oregon for years, they know there stuff about Motorhomes and are not confused when you ask about coverages. I had Progressive thru them for years. One claim was a total and one was windshields, both handled well, no complaints.
Miller Insurance Agency
Gary B

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #16 – March 12, 2015, 01:30:38 pm

WOW
This forum is awesome. I expected some responses but you have surpassed my expectations.
I am still reading and absorbing and I will either PM or comment publicly as I go along. I still work 5 days a month in local hospital as a Respiratory Therapist. I have a 3day stretch starting tomorrow so my study of the forum entries will be protracted.
I have thought of another concern and that is whether or not I should buy a FT with acquahot if we are not fulltiming?
I like the idea that one can depend more on one fuel source with AH. If one treats the diesel fuel with powerservice or stanadyne does this have any ill effects on the AH burner?

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #17 – March 12, 2015, 01:58:11 pm

And aqua hot is like power windows in a car once you have them you'll never go back Yes they are little bit more service and parts can cost you when they break but there's a wealth of information already here on the forum and some very knowledgeable people around the country to help you I for one hate the noise of the propane any inconvenience of having yet another fuel source to procure Dave M says do what makes you happy

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #18 – March 12, 2015, 02:05:04 pm

Bob & Pat,

As to Aquahot (AH), the answers will be many. AH is a top of the line system for high end coaches that serves multiple functions. AH will heat the engine coolant to pre-heat the engine in cold weather (some will chime in on the specifics through the model years as to the coolant); it will heat the water supply for consumption in the coach; and it will provide various zones of heating inside the coach ambient zones.

AH is very useful for extended stays especially in colder climates. I've owned Forrest (the 1997 U270) for 12 years now. It has one propane heater which I've used only twice and a Hot Water heater as opposed to AH. The hot water heater is propane, 120VAC and also heated with engine coolant when engine is operating so there is hot water immediately upon arrival to your destination as is the AH equipmed models. This has proven to be quite satisfactory for Beth & I.

Some will say that the additional investment in AH systems as well as their maintenance requirements (for those not handy enough to perform their own maintenence) needs serious consideration. Either way whether the coach has AH or not, either system is adequate for any application needs you may have.

Good luck reading our postings, welcome to the Foreforums, ask as many quations as you may have and good luck in your search for a motorhome.

Re: likely new buyer

Reply #19 – March 12, 2015, 02:09:19 pm

No experience with Aqua Hots but people seem to love them. Foretravels are a special breed as so many have been re-habbed over the years. Our coach is a case in point. Look at it's picture. Does it look like a '95?

I think you can ignore the NADA books and their like. NADA publishes two versions, one for the dealers and the one for the public that you buy at book stores. Different prices.

If a coach has been well taken care of, used regularly, has no defects, and it feels right to you then it's worth what you want to pay for it.

I would look at FOT and MOT first. Reputable people.

Keith

Re: likely new buyer (how to value a coach?)

Reply #20 – March 12, 2015, 06:46:51 pm

Quote from: gootie – March 12, 2015, 01:30:38 pm

If one treats the diesel fuel with powerservice or stanadyne does this have any ill effects on the AH burner?

Bob,
We have found just the opposite in real cold weather. (below 0) With the fuel cold due to the front of the fuel tank next to the outside wall on our coach (other models may have the tank in another location) the additive has helped to make the burner burn cleaner in the cold. Have been told that it helps keep the seals lubed in the fuel pump but we have no proof if this is true.

Pamela & Mike

Re: likely new buyer (how to value a coach?)

Reply #21 – March 16, 2015, 05:12:59 pm

Scubaguy
That GV at PPL has not received rave reviews by at least one forum contributor.
Since we are landing in that area we will look at if if still there. I am getting a very clear idea of what to look for in terms of coach condition and I will likely drive the sales person nuts with questions.

(Quote of entire previous post deleted - Michelle)

Re: likely new buyer (how to value a coach?)

Reply #22 – March 19, 2015, 08:30:03 pm

Just for clarification, the End Cap and Bulk Head problems have not been wide spread or a major concern. I know of only one Chassis Failure out of the thousands of Unihomes and Unicoaches sold. These problems are worth checking out but they are not the worst or most expensive problems one can encounter. They can be fixed. A damaged Aquahot or Slide can be much more expensive to rectify. IMHO

Re: likely new buyer (how to value a coach?)

Reply #23 – March 20, 2015, 11:26:48 am

Quote

the End Cap and Bulk Head problems have not been wide spread

I do feel the endcap issue was fairly widespread across the years that were affected. That said most that were ever going to have the issue, have had it and have since been repaired. Its good to know about and ask about but probably not a serious concern at this point.

FWIW our coach had the end cap separation repair done twice under warranty (once by the original owner, once by us) and then one side opened up again post warranty which we had repaired. Been fine for quite a number of years now. Maybe we were just unlucky but its something to be aware of when kicking the tires. If it has dark paint on those years I think its also more suspect to the issue, ours always seemed to open up beginning in the black stripe and then it spread up and down.

Don't want to derail the topic, just a FWIW from my personal experience.

Re: likely new buyer (how to value a coach?)

Reply #24 – March 20, 2015, 01:13:22 pm

Quote from: gootie – March 16, 2015, 05:12:59 pm

Scubaguy
That GV at PPL has not received rave reviews by at least one forum contributor.
Since we are landing in that area we will look at if if still there. I am getting a very clear idea of what to look for in terms of coach condition and I will likely drive the sales person nuts with questions.

Hi, Gootie! In regards to ScubaGuy mentioning a really nice GV we saw at PPL, this was 3 years ago. We have not seen or done any research on the current GV that is for sale there now.

Granted the drive from IAH to PPL isn't the shortest, I think it is a great idea if you want to tool around there for a day. You will learn so much looking through all the diesel pushers - things you like, things you don't like - and the best part is that you can do it with no sales person. They will give you a piece of paper with all the current inventory, grab a pencil on the way out, and walk through every coach they have. Take copious notes. It was the most fun living so close to PPL during our motorhome search, as we would do this several times a month. Seeing all these PPL coaches first will give you a good foundation on what the norm is, and then visiting MOT and FOT and seeing the Foretravels will really really really WOW you. Pay special attention to any 1995-2001 SOB coaches that PPL has. Spend time in them, smell them, feel them, turn them inside out....and then make the trek to Nacogdoches. You will be shocked.

What an exciting time for you. Thank you for asking questions and wanting input from fellow FoFummers. It is always exciting for us to relive the process of first discovering these magnificent coaches.

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