Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Topic: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure (Read 2250 times) previous topic - next topic

Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

March 22, 2015, 09:25:40 pm

I'm not sure how much our radiator is like others since it was custom built by Cummins some years back. Today I was going over the coach attempting to wash the oily residue off (with mixed success) and I found that one of our radiator brackets have cracked. The interesting thing is that the weld itself broke in half. The metal on both sides is perfect, the weld literally split in half. I have never seen something like that in my life.

My current idea for repair is to put a bottle jack under the radiator, drain the coolant, remove the steel bracket and have a mobile welder repair the aluminum bracket. Can anyone find any flaws with that? There is no real fuel or anything else and there is what I feel good enough clearance to not warrant removal of the radiator. A good tig weldier I would think would be quite small and able to work into the space.

I was going over in my head the potential expense here. $3500 for a new radiator, $3000 per fan motor (2), $1500+ for a new charge air cooler. Then all the custom bracketry. That's if all this fell out on the highway. I may have seriously dodged a bullet by looking things over!

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #1 – March 22, 2015, 09:51:26 pm

Bad weld.

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #2 – March 22, 2015, 10:02:21 pm

FOT stocks new radiator for my 2001, complete mounting assy, Bo @ Bernds resealed the two fan motors, all good also installed new CAC., new radiator and hydraulic hoses, nice job.

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #3 – March 22, 2015, 10:07:06 pm

Dave I'm not sure why I would replace the radiator when the rest of it is in good shape. And the broken weld doesn't affect the surface of the radiator either. I don't think my 1999 radiator is available otherwise why else would the previous owner have one custom made?

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #4 – March 22, 2015, 10:36:21 pm

I do not see a broken weld. the welds on the bracket are intentionally done in a stitch pattern. not continuous.

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #5 – March 22, 2015, 10:38:48 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – March 22, 2015, 10:36:21 pm

I do not see a broken weld. the welds on the bracket are intentionally done in a stitch pattern. not continuous.

Look in the first picture. See how the bracket is kind of tweaked? The bottom is pulled away and the top is wedged against the radiator. The second picture shows the gap. That bit of jagged weld hanging out is supposed to be attached to the radiator behind it. The weld broke in half with half of it attached to the aluminum plate and half attached to the radiator itself.

EDIT: I see what you're talking about. Look below that. Horizontal weld.

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #6 – March 23, 2015, 09:24:35 am

Looks like lack of penetration. Not enough heat the melt the parent metal on the radiator, understandable for a couple of reasons ..... Maybe the radiator was full of coolant, which may have been a good thing. Maybe the welder KNEW he didn't want enough heat to melt the parent metal on the radiator cause he KNEW he'd catch heck if he caused a leak. JMOO

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #7 – March 23, 2015, 10:27:42 am

Can you tell how much weight was intended to be held by that or is it just there to prevent side/side movement?

You should be able to get it welded, if its aluminum make sure the welder really knows how to work with that as well.

That just looks odd to me, but really hard to tell whats going on from a picture. Almost seems like you would want to have the bracket welded to the radiator and then some "soft" mount/interface between it and the frame, like rubber or corded belt etc. Something so you are not directly loading up the end-cap of the radiator. Just a thought since I'm only looking at one small area so I really have no idea.

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #8 – March 23, 2015, 11:53:00 am

Piku, on your costing of parts you mention the CAC and it will be around $3500 from FT and about $1300 from maker in Corpus Christi. They also made (if I am not mistaken) the Rads for FT. I cannot think right now of the name but have it in coach but Tim F or Dave H know it as one of them sent me that info. I repaired my own CAC but did talk to them before doing it. It was something like Atlas Radiators.
JohnH

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #9 – March 23, 2015, 12:58:12 pm

If you just pull the thing together and weld it you will be stressing another part. Make sure that everything lines up and is weldable without any stress. What made it pull apart in the first place? It may be that a plate to fill the gap is needed first.

Keith

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #10 – March 23, 2015, 01:01:13 pm

I'm having trouble selecting a welder now. I'm trying to find someone who does custom intake manifolds and stuff like that for hot rods because they will probably be excellent.

I could drain the radiator or not. Not sure which is preferable.

It is bad penetration on the radiator. There is still weld metal attached but not deeply. Frankly I wouldn't blame anyone for being ginger on the final stages (end brackets) on such a beast of a radiator.

As for the attachment, it is an aluminum plate with 4 bolt holes. From there the steel bracket is directly bolted. The steel bracket however is mounted to rubber vibration isolators, but there is no going around that this radiator itself holds a lot of weight. All the other stuff is bolted to the radiator.

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #11 – March 23, 2015, 01:02:03 pm

Quote from: Keith and Joyce – March 23, 2015, 12:58:12 pm

If you just pull the thing together and weld it you will be stressing another part. Make sure that everything lines up and is weldable without any stress. What made it pull apart in the first place? It may be that a plate to fill the gap is needed first.

Keith

There was no gap I don't think. The gap is there now because the steel bracket is crooked. If I jacked up the radiator from the bottom it would line right back up.

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #12 – March 23, 2015, 01:35:53 pm

If there is a gap there now I would suggest that there was something there before ie a rubber spacer/ dampner. Take a look at opposite side to see what that looks like and any rubber. I cannot see it cuasing a gap just because it broke off or the thru mounting bolt is loose and if so I really believe there should be a dampening piece be there and rotted or broke up.
JohnH

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #13 – March 23, 2015, 03:18:31 pm

Rube Goldberg here again. I see what looks like two bolt heads on the angle bracket that came loose. Are there two more on the opposite end of the radiator? Would it be possible to run two rods--all the way across the radiator, thru both brackets, and then thread nuts on the ends? If nothing else this would cradle the radiator. Maybe put a piece of cushioning rubber between the brackets and the radiator itself to prevent abrading a hole thru the radiator wall. That way compressing the rubber cushions would hold the radiator in place.
Welding/soldering on the very thin radiator wall can be very touchy, and probably wouldn't hold long anyway.

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #14 – March 23, 2015, 04:09:08 pm

There is a gap because the bracket is cock-eyed. I believe the top weld may still be connected. I think the bottom bracket is carrying all of the weight as well.

The threaded rod idea is pretty good but what would be better is strapping going around the bottom instead of/in addition to these two welded plates near the top. The threaded rod idea couldn't work because the fans are in the way on the other side.

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #15 – March 23, 2015, 05:26:59 pm

Bleh, Paul Yasbeck won't touch it. He says that the coolant changes the metal of the side tanks and it will be harder to weld to. Also says he's never seen anything like this before (with things welded to the side tanks). No solutions and said his welder wouldn't touch it either. Then he was saying he would weld around the side of the side tank on the back of the plate and that the CAC would need to come out to do that. He was saying that can't easily be dropped out the bottom and instead must have the side door opened which means messing up my full body paint.

The general gist is that too much weight was hanging off of those 4 welds between the radiator, coolant, fans, CAC, etc.

This all just seems too overcomplicated to me. The radiator is 5 years old. It'll probably be leaking and needing replaced on its own accord in another 5 years anyway. Part of me wonders if I couldn't just do some strapping around the bottom to repair it. I mean I could drill 2 holes up through the bottom tray, tie two steel or thick aluminum straps through the holes and up to the steel bracket and problem solved, more or less. There would still be some sideways forces that wouldn't be held.

Looks like the radiator was made by Sunshine Cooling Systems in Lakeland.

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #16 – March 23, 2015, 05:45:27 pm

Maybe end up pulling the radiator and having Sunshine Cooling weld a new tank up, with brackets on it. Alternatively, maybe call 3M and see if they have any high temp adhesive for aluminum....just a shot in the dark.

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #17 – March 23, 2015, 06:19:20 pm

My simple choice was to purchase a newradiator assy. From FOT parts complete including all new structure including the two fan mounts, after resealing the fan motors was simple & correct installing with new hydraulic & radiator hose.
Coach has 114,000 miles, felt if every 114,000 miles is required, so be it. Dependability is key with me, not the easy red neck Engineering cheap short cut that would leave me hung up along the road broke down.
Why I do the happy thing.

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #18 – March 23, 2015, 06:39:10 pm

My coach has full body paint and I took the side panel off to get CAC out- very easy to do and trim goes back and hardly see any change from original. This to me is the sensible thing to do then working on rad or taking it out is simple too. No one has ever said "oh my goodness you have taken panel off after paint job!!" Its only paint.
JohnH

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #19 – March 23, 2015, 06:51:53 pm

If I take the panel off I could do 3 out of 4 sides of the aluminum bracket welding. It'd be stronger than before and before got me this far... I would replace the radiator if it was in worse shape overall but it's not. It'd just be throwing money away for fun.

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #20 – March 23, 2015, 11:30:33 pm

So, what's stopping you doing that???
JohnH

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #21 – March 24, 2015, 12:22:05 am

Nothing really other than the first welder I talked to (Paul Yasbeck) saying "noooo way I am touching that" Aluminum is tough to weld competently from what I read. The radiator is expensive.

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #22 – March 24, 2015, 08:08:47 am

I know it is a pretty big job but why not pull the radiator and find you an oilfield radiator shop. This is an everyday thing in the oilfield not a big welding job for the right person.

Pamela & Mike

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #23 – March 24, 2015, 10:18:50 am

I would forget trying to reweld this, it's p-poor design anyway, hanging a radiator from a cold two inch weld on the tank. Sheesh. Support it from below, possibly clean between bracket and radiator and j-b weld it if it makes you feel good.. Maybe make a couple of ears that bolt thru bracket out of aluminum angle, that would capture the radiator and prevent rocking movement. Be glad the weld broke instead of taking a chunk out of your rad which is what I would have expected.

I'm 20 miles from Corpus if you want to replace, will be happy to swing by Atlas if you have info enough to spec rad. Let me know.

Re: Radiator Mount Bracket Failure

Reply #24 – March 24, 2015, 12:27:26 pm

Welding aluminum is not that hard IF the area is clean and prep work done, but, having said that I second Chucks idea of mechanical support. I would first remove the panel and CAC (simple job to do) so that you can do a proper figuring of what support is needed. I can tell you it would only be a days work to have it done start to finish (as long as the needed parts are close by). This is one of the easier repair jobs to do on our coach's. I repeat myself-take off that panel and life becomes easy!
JohnH

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