Chelsea spline grease .

Topic: Chelsea spline grease . (Read 3724 times) previous topic - next topic

Chelsea spline grease .

April 18, 2015, 09:32:30 pm

The break down I had back in January while in Arizona is because the Chelsea pump that turns the big fan to cool the engine . failed at the point of the (PTO) shaft that connects the gear box to the pump . This shaft (PTO) was dry , rusty and was rounded off at the corners to the point that it no longer could turn the pump . Now the replacement unit has a Zerk grease fitting on it to take care of that very thing . Now , not just any grease will have the long lasting effect desired . The proper grease for this application is ----Chelsea Spline pump grease ----the part number for a tube of it is 379831 . This is unlike any grease I have ever seen . It is very black ,and sticks to everything, and stains clothing and hands very well . I ordered mine from Wesrern Branch Diesel , in Richmond Va . their phone is 804 550 2826 The cost is $20.23 a tube . Most places I tried to buy it looked at me and shook their heads . Hard to find as none of them ever heard of the stuff . So , if you have a ISX-600 or 650 , might better check out this whole deal before it lets you set on the side of the road . Call James T. with your build number and he will fill you in on what you have . DO it , Do it ------Do it . If you have a dry (PTO) you will have a failure , not if , but when . Brad Metzger

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #1 – April 18, 2015, 10:11:27 pm

Brad,

Tell me-- is this the issue: Radiator PTO Pump mounted on Allison 4000MH Transmission

Let me know if you have trouble accessing it-- it is on the Diesel RV Club Technical Website.

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #2 – April 18, 2015, 10:38:38 pm

Spline grease is very thick and super sticky--as you found it. It's common in industrial applications and even boats (inboard outboards).

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #3 – April 18, 2015, 10:42:21 pm

Shaft drive motorcycles have spline grease issues. We use very high moly grease.

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #4 – April 19, 2015, 07:26:54 am

Mr. B. a Wolfe , yes on the radiator pump that is bolted to the passenger side of the Allison 4000MH . That PTO shaft is "square" going into a square hole . The shaft is not smooth , not what I expected to see . The grease is not thick , also not what I expected. Do not think this is an example of good American engineering , more like something from China . But ---with this magic grease ---sure better work as advertised or I will have an attitude from hell . Brad Metzger

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #5 – April 19, 2015, 08:13:40 am

How often do you have to grease it?

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #6 – April 19, 2015, 08:54:05 am

Interesting, as the solution Country Coach and others took was to lube the spline area with circulated oil from the transmission instead of its own grease supply.

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #7 – April 19, 2015, 10:07:29 am

Because of the issue Brad ran into I dove deep into this subject. I talked to James T. a couple months ago about it and he told me the build numbers that are affected. Mine is one of them. There have been numerous failures and FOT decided to go the Zerk/Grease route versus the a wet bath because of clearance issues where the PTO is mounted.

The wet bath is the best solution in my option as it is a maintenance free solution. It baths the coupling area with transmission oil continuously. With the Zerk/grease option you have to grease once or twice a year and you will have to remove the packed grease in the coupling area at some point too. I talked to Chelsea a couple months back too and they say leaving the grease built up in the coupling will eventually wear the seals out. So about every five years you need to unbolt the PTO and pump and remove the grease and put fresh in there.

I went through the work to unbolt mine for fear of failure like Brad had. I travel short trips and this type of failure would be a big problem for me. When I got the pump and PTO removed, sure enough mine was dry and had already begun to strip. There were some metal particles in there as evidence. So I cleaned it up and greased it good with the Chelsea grease. It is referred to as anti-fretting grease.

Worse part of the job is that the large 3" hydraulic line has to be removed to allow separation of the pump and PTO. Which also means loosing about 31 quarts of hydraulic oil.

Oh well, at least I have a little more peace of mine. But this is a bad design for a critical component.

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #8 – April 19, 2015, 11:15:11 am

Exdellent article on Diesel club fprum. I will be sending this PDF to my friend in San Carlos as he has the Magna and Cat mentioned. Hope he has not got the problem as I know what will be the next job!! Question for Brad and Brrving, is access to the pump best fron under or above?
JohnH

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #9 – April 19, 2015, 02:23:16 pm

Only access to the PTO and Pump is from below. It is on the passenger side next to the transmission on mine.

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #10 – April 19, 2015, 03:51:42 pm

After The initial report of the damage done to Brads unit, I pulled mine and not only was it dry the splines were virtually gone. With less than 35,000 miles on mine I decided a complete replacement was in order. Was able to replace a rebuilt pump, splines on the female side were also shot. With removal of the batteries, necessary hoses and the PTO the job took 6 hours. Really tight in that area. As previously stated a ton of oil needed to be replaced. All in all not a terrible job and once the batteries were out I replaced them at that time. Costly but a necessary preventive measure if you don't want to break down. I once posted that we can't use the wet kit because of the tight space. CC and Monaco use this pump PTO combination for steering so a break down for them is even more catastrophic.

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #11 – April 19, 2015, 03:55:26 pm

I emailed my friend and sent him the info in PDF file and just got word back from him to say he had it replaced(kit) about 6 months after he bought the Magna, so I do not have to worry about that job, phew!!!
JohnH

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #12 – April 19, 2015, 05:44:25 pm

Why is it that Foretravel can not do the transmission oil route instead of being dry or the grease angle . I have read that there is not enough room / space to do that . How can that be ? How much extra space does it require ? Is there some part of the oil kit that sticks out that prevents it ? It is tight in that area because the cranking batteries are there , but is that the main reason , or the only reason ' ? Not real pleased about what I know so far . What is so different about the CC that they can do it but we can not ? -----Same engine , same transmission ----? Will chat with James T . and post results . I want this coach to run the million mile route . Would hate to have some very preventable stupid thing like this grind me to a halt . Brad Metzger

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #13 – April 19, 2015, 06:20:47 pm

I wonder why they did it that way. If I have to fault FT it is for this type of issue. They do not produce a lot of units so the engineering is not spread over a lot of units to make them better. I hope they come up with a fix other then grease it and then pull the grease out and then repeat.
What is the interval and is it based on engine hours?

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #14 – April 19, 2015, 06:32:03 pm

The starter batteries and their tray are on the back end of the PTO. I was told they interfere with the potential use of the wet kit. On the newer coaches with the start batteries in the same bay as the house batteries I assume it could be done although they now use the lubed shaft.

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #15 – April 19, 2015, 06:42:46 pm

This SNAFU sure makes it unlikely I will have any interest in the ISX but sure makes me happy to have the old fashion junk ISM that keeps on getting r done.

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #16 – April 19, 2015, 07:33:50 pm

Hi Bred,

What years of Foretravel coaches or engine sizes are affected by the dry or grease angle problem?

Jim

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #17 – April 19, 2015, 07:40:40 pm

Quote from: Jim Frerichs – April 19, 2015, 07:33:50 pm

What years of Foretravel coaches or engine sizes are affected by the dry or grease angle problem?

I'm not Brad, but here's a post with a quote from FT that says pretty much all the 2007-2010 with ISX have this problem

Break down on I-10 (fan pump failure)

Quote

According to our records there are 80 coaches that have the PTO for the hydraulic pump on certain Foretravel Motorcoaches involving Phenix and Nimbus model years 2007-2010.

When we were aware of the potential problem we established 4 levels of service policy for both pre- and post- warranty expiration for our owners with these non-greasable shafts.
· 80 coaches originally had the non-greasable shaft.
· 18 involved ISL engines that have not indicated a service life problem.
· 34 in that unit range have had greasable shafts installed post production.
· Some have had in excess of 70,000 miles without failure.
· 28 PTOs could still be suspect.
· Inspections are still recommended and shafts with fittings greased per our original service bulletin dated 8/18/2011.

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #18 – April 19, 2015, 07:46:56 pm

Thank you Michelle,

My old 2002 has some advantages
Jim

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #19 – April 19, 2015, 08:19:45 pm

I think if you drove a ISX 600 or 650 you would think differently as the power to weight is amazing on the phenix. If you were to buy a used one, just check if the grease fitting is there or if not, ask the seller to either reduce the price or have it fixed. Once fixed there is no worry. I have had two ISM Foretravel 320's and I can't express the change in drivability. My 40' has 1850 ft/lbs of torque and weight 41650 lbs. The newest ISX engines for the class 8 trucks have 2050 ft/lbs of torque and a feature to get an additional 200lbs on hill climbs. I don't know what the IH weighs but I would assume that it is 7 or 8 thousand pounds more than mine. With that weight they need all the power they can get. Brad's coach is two years newer than mine and a 45' unit but he can attest to the power of the ISX. This may not be great mileage to fuel used but in almost 8 years of use we have averaged just at 7 miles per gallon. This was in almost always steep mountain areas as we live in Ca and spend most of our time in the western US.

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #20 – April 19, 2015, 09:55:52 pm

Looking at the Chelsea manuals and dimensions I think the wet kit will fit. It is just a tee fitting and a small 1/4 line run to the coupling side of the PTO. The tee connects to the existing line from the trans. that wet lubes the PTO gears. Maybe it has something to do with the seal on the hydraulic pump FOT used? I was up into mine when I greased it and it is not that tight of an area.

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #21 – April 19, 2015, 10:07:29 pm

Quote from: esaulten – April 19, 2015, 03:51:42 pm

After The initial report of the damage done to Brads unit, I pulled mine and not only was it dry the splines were virtually gone. With less than 35,000 miles on mine I decided a complete replacement was in order. Was able to replace a rebuilt pump, splines on the female side were also shot. With removal of the batteries, necessary hoses and the PTO the job took 6 hours. Really tight in that area. As previously stated a ton of oil needed to be replaced. All in all not a terrible job and once the batteries were out I replaced them at that time. Costly but a necessary preventive measure if you don't want to break down. I once posted that we can't use the wet kit because of the tight space. CC and Monaco use this pump PTO combination for steering so a break down for them is even more catastrophic.

Very interesting that your spline was in that bad of shape at 35K miles. I pulled mine that has 62K on it and while there was definately wear of the spline it was just a small amount. And Brad's failed at about 70K miles.

Talking with the Chelsea rep, he thought extended engine idling time added to the wear of the spline.

Then again, Brad noted that his radiator fan was running on high speed for some time. Maybe the additional load of the higher fan speed adds to wear?

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #22 – April 19, 2015, 10:41:32 pm

Its possible that high speed fan could cause the wear as mine was on high speed for a year before Foretravel put in a new solenoid from the pump assembly. This stopped the high speed and actually it never goes on at high speed anymore. As I mentioned the splines on the PTO male assembly were worn to a level where they were Knife edged and almost completely gone. The female pump splines were worn flat by the male assembly and ready to stop turning. I think that with summer approaching we would have broken down in less than 3000 miles.

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #23 – April 20, 2015, 08:44:52 am

Then it sounds like one possibility contributing to early failure is the fan running on high speed at idle. Assume this puts additional stress on the spline and contributes to early wear since both "esaulten" and "Brad" had this exact issue. My fan, thankfully, runs normal and I did not see extreme wear on the spline.

I am disappointed in FOT on this issue. They know it is a failure point as was pointed out in James T. email. It is not "if" it is going to fail, but "when". FOT should note the build number and alert customers when they are in for service to have this checked or replaced. I have been to FOT numerous times for service and this issue was never mentioned. If it wasn't for this forum and Brad's post, I'd be driving down the road with a ticking failure waiting to costs me time and bucks or maybe worse. When this failure occurs your engine will overheat and shut down. A potential safety hazard if on a long climb.

Re: Chelsea spline grease .

Reply #24 – April 20, 2015, 08:48:05 am

You're lucky FT even mentioned or "admitted" to any design flaw.

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