Water Pump Bay

Topic: Water Pump Bay (Read 1317 times) previous topic - next topic

Water Pump Bay

June 09, 2015, 09:08:21 pm

Our old "quiet" loop on the AquaJet water pump was getting tired with age, just like any of the other plastic/rubber parts in and around the coach. We ordered two new quiet loops as it was recommended that a "loop" be on both the inlet and outlet side of the pump. RV Water Filter Store: Standard Filter Canisters for Whole RV

On our coach only the outlet had the loop, The inlet was hard plumbed to the piping. Also to note, those are not AquaJet OEM parts at the link, but at $10 vs $24 for the "Pump Pulsation Dampener" OEM ones, it's (2) for the price of one.

Wanting to install the loops on both the outlet and on the inlet, it became apparent that a slight reconfigure of the bay plumbing was in order. In doing this I wanted to accomplish a few things:

- One was to not have any piping overlap other piping, no criss crossing, at least not that could be avoided.
- Two was to orient the pump so I could see the inlet strainer, the way things were it was hidden from view. This would also allow me to easily hookup the wonderful pink antifreeze to the inlet when its time for winter hibernation.
- Three was to add the quiet loop on the inlet and not have it "hard" plumbed to the piping.

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Looking at things a bit I felt I could move the current "empty tank" valves to be straight off the tanks and not turn 90 degrees and run in front of the pump. Shortening them would allow me to rotate the pump 180 degrees and shift it forward. I was unable to get the fresh tank empty to be a straight shot without getting into the level sensor etc so it still has a turn, although much shorter now.

I plugged the old holes with a mixture of epoxy and micro balloons (makes the epoxy lighter and more sandable). I did leave one hole "open" and simply sleeved it with a section of pex piping epoxied in place. This will act as a drain in that bay, oddly on our coach the water bay had no drain, so now it does. It's filled with some brass wool to keep the bugs out but water will flow right out.

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So cut, measure, dry fit, check, crimp the pex fittings, repeat to you are done. Yes I missed one crimp the first time around

That's why you test your connections for leaks...

Once done attaching the new soft loop to the strainer was going to take a few adapters; our original strainer had a pipe thread and the new quiet loop has a quick connect. As I looked around for a set of adapters or connectors, I double checked the strainer basket, and voila, the new ones come with the quick connect. So out with the old and in with the new, only $10 at Remco 25-181 Aquajet Pump Protector Inlet Strainer that was less cost than the fittings I would have had to add and lot easier to do.

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So that's my story, can't say for sure things are any more quiet until we get on the road, but the accessibility is much better, and judging on how much the inlet hose moves, it's certainly decoupled the pump from the plumbing. I used cable loops to "hang" the loops from the shelf above so they would not touch anything. Just a few new labels to make for the drains.

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #1 – June 09, 2015, 09:29:20 pm

Another great project, Steve. Nothing like wanting to hit the road to motivate getting projects complete. I want to redo this as well and add bypass fittings for winterizing. Having the inlet strainer easier to get at is nice. I will be interested to hear if it isolates/reduces pump noise.

I have a horizontal shelf above my pump as well and there was a wall. Behind the wall was quite a bit of space and an aquahot heat exchanger. So I took out the wall and made a door out of it. Now it is easy to just look in at the fresh water tank for a visual check on level. And there is enough room to store all sorts of water related stuff behind the closed door.

Roger

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #2 – June 10, 2015, 07:25:45 am

Quote from: Home2fromHastings – June 09, 2015, 09:29:20 pm

I have a horizontal shelf above my pump as well and there was a wall.

Yeah - our shelf supports the vacuum generator for the toilet The selected media item is not currently available.

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #3 – June 10, 2015, 07:30:23 am

That must be like Carol and Jeff's TT3000 plumbing. Another level of complication. Roger

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #4 – June 10, 2015, 01:37:36 pm

Very nice job @Steve, it looks great.

You have so much room to work in there, where is your AquaHot heat exchanger? Did you already relocate that?

I spent a couple of hours hunched over in that same compartment yesterday and mine doesn't look like that.

So, I have two questions for you (or anyone else):

1. There are two ports in my freshwater tank, currently the pump and fill solenoid are both on the same port. Any reason I couldn't move the fill solenoid to the other port (currently only a drain)? This would help me get it out of the way, and prevent some of the crisscross of pipes. See attached diagram.

2. Did you use Telfon tape on the Pex Swivel connections (SharkBite 1/2 in. Brass PEX Barb x 1/2 in. Female Swivel 90-Degree Elbow-UC53...) where they meet brass or plastic? Or is the little rubber grommet inside supposed to seal them? I don't think the ones I took off (original from Foretravel) had anything on the threads, but the new ones seem to like to leak. (I've never really worked with pex before)

Thanks!

P.S. I'm only a couple of hours from you if you get bored.

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #5 – June 10, 2015, 04:03:21 pm

Will it work? Perhaps.

Fill should go in top of tank ideally. Check to see if yours does. Drain will always be at bottom (obviously).

Keith

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #6 – June 10, 2015, 06:19:45 pm

Hi Douglas,

Where does your fill line come in? There is another ball valve in there some where on ours. It is at Cummins right now so I can't go look. Do you have an accumulator tank?

My water tank has two fittings at the bottom. I have added two more at the top, one for the hot water recirculation and the other for a direct fill. This lets me fill faster since you are putting water in at the top rather than pushing water in against all that is already in the tank. I can also add water through that connection from a jug if needed.

Those PEX fittings do not need teflon tape. They are hand tighten (plus a bit). The rubber gasket does the sealing. These can be hard to get tight enough. As tight as you can plus 1/4 turn. Should be enough.

PEX is fairly rigid and in these lengths it is going to be pretty much like pipe. The isolation loops are probably a much less rigid tube.

This, like every plumbing project is at least three trips to the hardware store.

Roger

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #7 – June 10, 2015, 07:11:45 pm

Here is how my bay plumbing is routed, I did not show the valves in the schematic, if you need those I'll add them in, just forgot to.

We also have two taps on the tank. One is set up to only empty the tank, that one also has the tank pressure (level) sensor on it.

The second has both the pump and fill valve attached to is, so its a push-me pull-me setup. When the pump runs it pulls from the tank. When the fill is open, the "city" water pressure is can't drive the pump, and even if it could it can't go anywhere with the faucets closed, so instead its forced in the bottom of the tank. I know that has to be the bottom since its the same line the pump pulls from. So based on that I think your proposal would work fine.

Those pex swivel fittings should not require teflon, they seal on the rubber gaskets. AFAIK they are NPSM thread (National Pipe Straight Mechanical), not a tapered thread, so it seals on the face / gasket not in the threads. Some of them get a bit crusty with time and once opened may leak a bit. You may be able to use a gasket from a new pex fitting, or you may find a gasket that works at the hardware store. If not you will have to replace it.

Our aqua hot vent / heater for that bay is behind the wall on the left side of the vacuum flush, so on the left side in the picture Michelle posted. Its always been there, so I did not have to move that in doing this re-arrangement. I will say critters have found that location most excellent to make nests in, right on top of the AQ radiator.

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This, like every plumbing project is at least three trips to the hardware store.

I think you mean any RV project

But yes you can't have enough crimp rings, fittings (straight, RT, T, etc), or short chunks of pipe.

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #8 – June 10, 2015, 10:14:59 pm

Mine looks like Steve's. The difference in your proposed plan is that you are filling through the tank drain. In practice, maybe ok. That line is normally not pressurized other than by gravity.. The level sensor pressure range may not go as high as city water pressure. Unintended consequences...

Maybe figure out how to add isolation loops w/o fill change?

Roger

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #9 – June 10, 2015, 11:17:09 pm

Thanks, everyone,

Steve inspired me, all plumbing in that area is going to be "re-engineered".

I think I can get rid of most, if not all, of my pipes crossing over other pipes, and generally end up with a cleaner, neater compartment. With all new, non-leaking connections.

I'm going to add a couple of new ball valves. One will shut off water from the tank to the pump in case I need to pull the pump with a full tank.
The second one will isolate everything to do with the tank, pump, and fill solenoid. This should allow me to shut off everything to do with that area, and still have running water via city water. With it closed, I can work on everything and still take a shower and flush the toilet if I don't finish that day. I think those two small improvements will pay off sometime down the road. They would have been handy last night and today.

I'm also going to replace all three drain ball valves. They are starting to have a little play in them. If I don't just do it now they will start to leak as soon as I finish up. So I'm just going to do that now. I don't think I'm going to move them, but I might re-order them.

Finally, I'm going to explore other locations and orientations for the AQ. It might go right back where it is, but I'm going see if there are other places it could go.

As far as the fill/drain. I have three holes in my tank. One at the top is the overflow. The two at at bottom seem to be exactly the same. So, I'm going make one fill and one supply for the pump and the drain.

Luckily I don't have one of those level sensor thingies on mine, I have the foiled wires, so that's not a problem. If I had a sensor, I probably wouldn't do what I'm going to try to do.

Thanks again everyone for all the tips, and thanks Steve for setting the bar high.

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #10 – June 11, 2015, 07:19:40 am

Douglas, I remember a few people put the fill in a new hole up top. I always thought the next time I have to go in there to do that too.

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #11 – June 11, 2015, 07:34:04 am

Sounds like a fun project, keep us up to date with how it goes

It may not be obvious in the photos, but I was able to use right angle drain valves to replace the in-line ones that FT used. That allowed me to place them right over the openings and save 2 crimps and a 90 degree fitting per drain. Also keep track of where the side "rail" is, use a magnet, but you will want to keep your drain openings behind that.

Other than that its just a small puzzle of parts to fit in place. I could have oriented the pump in any direction when I was done, there was that much room. Previous to that it was wedged in place between the pumping pipes in an "almost fits" setup.

I also re-made the U bracket that the fill valve mounts to. We had to replace that valve several years ago and the new one did not sit on the old bracket, it needed several spacers to be supported. So Its the same just a bit taller, but I did turn the valve about 20 degrees or so on axis so I can easily get to the manual turn knob on it.

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #12 – June 11, 2015, 03:19:20 pm

Quote from: Steve – June 11, 2015, 07:34:04 am

Sounds like a fun project, keep us up to date with how it goes

It may not be obvious in the photos, but I was able to use right angle drain valves to replace the in-line ones that FT used. That allowed me to place them right over the openings and save 2 crimps and a 90 degree fitting per drain.

I did not notice that. I did noticed all your valves are of a slightly different design than the ones on my coach. Yours are more of a block shape, mine are more elongated (Eastman 1/2 in. x 1/2 in. Brass PEX Ball Valve-20093LF - The Home Depot). Is one type better than another?

Where did you find the 90 degree valves? Google is not able to find those for me.

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #13 – June 11, 2015, 05:07:32 pm

They also look to be stainless steel. Nice Steve!

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Reply #14 – June 11, 2015, 05:51:05 pm

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Where did you find the 90 degree valves? Google is not able to find those for me.

I got most or all of my fittings, crimp rings, etc from Pex Universe ( PEX Supplies for Plumbing and Heating - PexUniverse.com ). Those 90 degree valves (sorry not SS, but are Lead-Free chrome plated brass) are here: 1/2" PEX x PEX Angle Stop Valve, 1/4-Turn, Lead-Free - PexUniverse

I don't think there is much difference in the brands of fittings, but since its your water supply, do look for ones that state they are lead-free.

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #15 – June 12, 2015, 12:43:08 pm

Thanks Steve, I have 5 angle valves on the way.

The bad news is, I think I realized the flaw in my redesign. I think, if the water pump button was on, and someone also turned on the water fill button, the pump would begin to run, and would run until it burned out. If my thinking is correct, opening the fill valve would cause a pressure drop which would activate the water pump. It would pull water from the tank and push it back into the tank through the fill solenoid. Since pressure would never build up, the pump would never stop. That would be very bad. That would be a huge flaw.

Am I right, on this? I could hook it all up and test it, but figured it would be much simpler to ask.

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #16 – June 12, 2015, 01:01:43 pm

Yes, in either the "before" or "after" if the fill valve is open, the pump would basically recirculate/not shut off.

Common to most all motorhome plumbing systems.

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #17 – June 12, 2015, 04:09:18 pm

This is basically the way ours coach was set up from the factory. The only difference, is as far as I can tell from your diagram, that we have a manual fill valve under the bathroom sink where as yours is a remote controlled solenoid. What that means is that we have the fill valve always closed unless actually filling the tank. However, the fill valve on ours doesn't keep the city water supply from bypassing the pump and tank assembly. It seems to me that If that is also true on yours, you could just make sure that the fill valve is always closed unless you are filling the tank.
Don

Quote from: ScubaGuy – June 12, 2015, 12:43:08 pm

The bad news is, I think I realized the flaw in my redesign. I thnk, if the water pump button was on, and someone also turned on the water fill button, the pump would begin to run, and would run until it burned out. If my thinking is correct, opening the fill valve would cause a pressure drop which would activate the water pump. It would pull water from the tank and push it back into the tank through the fill solenoid. Since pressure would never build up, the pump would never stop. That would be very bad. That would be a huge flaw.

Am I right, on this? I could hook it all up and test it, but figured it would be much simpler to ask.

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #18 – June 12, 2015, 07:06:26 pm

That is what happens when we fill. Pump needs to be off while filling. If the fill valve is off but city water pressure is on then the pump will not run.

I have a flow stop hose in line with my fillters all prior to the tank fill hose. If flow rate exceeds 3.5 gal/min it shuts off (washing maching hose). I rarely leave city water on other than to fill the tank. The risk of a major leak may be small but the damage it can do is huge. If the pump is on and no city water pressure means that unexpected pump noise is an alert that needs attention.

Roger

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Water Pump Bay

June 09, 2015, 09:08:21 pm

Re: Water Pump Bay

Reply #1 – June 09, 2015, 09:29:20 pm

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Reply #2 – June 10, 2015, 07:25:45 am

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Reply #3 – June 10, 2015, 07:30:23 am

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Reply #4 – June 10, 2015, 01:37:36 pm

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Reply #5 – June 10, 2015, 04:03:21 pm

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Reply #6 – June 10, 2015, 06:19:45 pm

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Reply #7 – June 10, 2015, 07:11:45 pm

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Reply #8 – June 10, 2015, 10:14:59 pm

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Reply #9 – June 10, 2015, 11:17:09 pm

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Reply #10 – June 11, 2015, 07:19:40 am

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Reply #11 – June 11, 2015, 07:34:04 am

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Reply #12 – June 11, 2015, 03:19:20 pm

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Reply #13 – June 11, 2015, 05:07:32 pm

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Reply #14 – June 11, 2015, 05:51:05 pm

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Reply #15 – June 12, 2015, 12:43:08 pm

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Reply #16 – June 12, 2015, 01:01:43 pm

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Reply #17 – June 12, 2015, 04:09:18 pm

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Reply #18 – June 12, 2015, 07:06:26 pm

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