Replacing Air Conditioners

Topic: Replacing Air Conditioners (Read 3222 times) previous topic - next topic

Replacing Air Conditioners

June 13, 2015, 03:20:16 am

We need to replace our A/C/heat pumps. We had planned to use the Atwood Air Commands, but were concerned about the report that the motor is running 24/7. Also frustrating was the need to have new thermostats for both units.

I started looking for a unit that might be compatible with our old DuoTherms (15 K in the front and 13.5 K in the rear) and even use our Comfort Control Center (5-button). The one I have at the top of my list now is the Dometic Brisk II, which is an upgrade from their Brisk Air units. talked to a couple of dealers today, but they said they would have to talk to Dometic about compatibility with the CCC, or if I would have to upgrade to the CCC2. They also did not know about the ability to use my existing wiring.

I know that some of you have upgraded to the Brisk Air or Brisk II units. I would like to find out some things from this brain trust:

1. Did you have to add any new wiring or was your existing wiring compatible?

2. Were you able to use the 5-button CCC to control the new units?

3. Did you have to make any changes to your existing roof hole, or was it essentially remove old and mount new unit?

4. Are the Brisk 2's noticeably quieter than the old DuoTherms?

5. If you needed to replace your existing air conditioner this month, what model(s) would be at the top of your list?

6. Did you, or would you, (try to) make the change yourself?

7. When we were planning on the Air Commands, we planned to use two 15 K units, since their 13.5 K units did not have heat pumps. Is there any benefit to replacing our 13.5 K unit with a 15 K unit?

8. Is there any reason to install heat pump units? Using the CCC, you either select Cool, Heat Pump, or Furnace/Heat. If it gets too cold to run the A/C, you are going to have to change the Mode on the CCC to either Heat Pump or Furnace, depending on the forcasted temperatures. Does the heat pump provide enough benefit to offset the increased complexity (assume cost difference is not much of a factor).

Answers to these questions will help in our decision process. Remember, for the most part, I am asking for your opinions and impressions. I hold all of you harmless and welcome any suggestions you might have.

We are getting ready for our first extended RV travel experience and Jean is insisting on having two working air conditioners. She would really like for them to be significantly quieter than our old ones.

Thank you,

Trent

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #1 – June 13, 2015, 08:03:23 am

Quote from: TulsaTrent – June 13, 2015, 03:20:16 am

She would really like for them to be significantly quieter than our old ones.

This, I believe, is a universal desire among RV dwellers. I will follow your search with interest - although ours still work well (knock on wood).

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #2 – June 13, 2015, 08:41:07 am

Trent,

Sitting under my much quieter Atwood 15k btu heat pump right now. The inside motor runs 24/7 as does all air handlers in every building I have been in to the best of my knowledge. I prefer the inside motor to always run to keep the air circulating and keeping the temp uniform through out the space.

On my EMS, I see 1 amp for the inside fan motor and 11 amps when the outside motor and compressor are on also. I put a 15k btu heat pump in bedroom and it works equally great there too. Both A/Cs are on 24/7 giving us a really comfortable quiet coach.

I like the remote control with which I can sit in my easy chair and control all functions of the A/C. I like the really cold air they create when the compressor is running that I can hardly hear. I like the Auto mode that chooses heat or cool as needed to meet set point. I like the Dry mode that runs the compressor for a brief period periodically to dehumidify the air when outside and inside temps are nearly the same but it is humid outside. I like the top compressor mount to constrain compressor movement going down the road. I like the built-in ducting that turns the air stream from down to horizontal rather than letting it slam into the ceiling unit and then head out horizontally. As I am a non-ducted unit, I like the retracting lanyard that keeps the thermostat control cable out of the way and the lanyard that suspends the ceiling unit so my hands are free to connect or disconnect the control cable as needed. And the ability to remove the filters for cleaning without having to remove the ceiling unit.

Did I say how much quieter the A/C is and that everyone visiting my coach comments on how much quieter they are than their A/Cs.

My air conditioners went into the same holes in 30 minutes each since I had a fork lift to get the new one up and the old one down. They are $1338 total cost from the 12Volt Store, Model 150026 with ceiling unit and new roof gasket.

I am the third Foretravel I know of that have these A/Cs. One is a GranVilla owned by a retired RV fixit friend that has install countless Dometic and Colemen A/Cs in his career. The other two owners like myself, removed operating A/Cs to enjoy the quiet operation of the Atwoods. I have a friend that has listened to mine and is ordering 3 for his Prevost.

Lastly, the most important reason to use these A/Cs is -- my wife no longer complains about how loud the blasted A/Cs are. Do what makes you happy -- I certainly did.

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #3 – June 13, 2015, 09:18:48 am

Trent, why are you replacing both units. I was told by the dealer that the newer A/C's and heat pumps last only about 7 years. My old ones were 19 and 20 years old before they went out. Also, Berndt in NAC can repair the old ones in most cases for considerably less than a replacement. Your pretty close to NAC,

We replaced our back A/C in 2012 and the front in 2013 with a Dometic heat pump before we learned about Berndt. We chose the Penguin to keep a lower profile. I had to purchase a new CCC for each. The CCC used in 2013 was a five button and not compatible with the one in 2014. I had to add a 12V source for each CCC since my coach is a 93 and the old thermostats we not powered. If you have a 5 button, yours is already wired with 12V.

If you are in good physical health, can handle the weight of the unit and you are comfortable with wiring you should have no problem installing the units yourself. The biggest problem is getting the new ones on the roof and the old ones back to earth. If you have ducted air, I can't help much with installation other than to say that the hole is the same. My biggest issue was this the air distribution box. I was told I had to buy a new one for each new unit so there was and additional $150 for each air box for each unit and $125 for each additional new CCC. Both new units were noisier than the original A/C units. This has been discussed many times on the forum. It seems that the new refrigerant requires a higher level of air flow to equal the old R12 Freon. I was able to modify the units to use my original air distribution boxes. The old ones were quieter than the new ones. NOTE: I found out that there is a silencer kit available from Dometic for around $20. I ordered two of them but haven't installed them yet. They contain additional bushings and grommets so all they do is reduce vibration.

Be sure to order a good quality foam seal for the roof. Get it from Dometic or Foretravel. The cheaper ones like the one I got from eBay don't have the same density and can tear easier during installation. The also will collapse over time.

We are very glad we ordered the heat pump for the front replacement because we stay many places monthly and pay for our electricity. But the heat pump doesn't work once the outside temps get close to freezing. I recommend keeping the rear A/C with a heat strip for those colder nights when you don't want to use the furnace or a ceramic heater.

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #4 – June 13, 2015, 10:18:50 am

Quote from: Rudy – June 13, 2015, 08:41:07 am

Lastly, the most important reason to use these A/Cs is -- my wife no longer complains about how loud the blasted A/Cs are. Do what makes you happy -- I certainly did.

Rudy,

Your bottom line is what is most important. I have learned that if I can keep my DW happy, then we will all be happy!

Thank you for all the details concerning the operation of your Atwoods. Now I am back in the Atwood camp. I was not aware of the Auto feature that selects between the cool and heat pump as the climate dictates. The information you provided is priceless. It is so hard to get real unbiased feedback from other owners.

I do have a couple of questions concerning wiring. I expect that all the wiring I need for the front unit already exists between the A/C and the 5-button Comfort Control Center. Did you have to add anything else for that unit? I know that I will have to route some control wiring from the rear unit (next to the shower) to the bedroom wall; that should be pretty straight forward. Is the 12-volt wiring that goes to the rear unit already sufficient, or will I have to add that also?

Thanks for being an "early adopter" and sharing your experience. One of the great things about Foreforms is the ability to learn from others. This is especially important for those of us that are embarking in our first RV ownership, with so much to learn.

Trent AND Jean

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #5 – June 13, 2015, 10:40:42 am

Quote from: Kent Speers – June 13, 2015, 09:18:48 am

Trent, why are you replacing both units?

Kent,

The back unit has not worked since we bought our Foretravel last August. The front unit works, but is extremely noisy. If it were my man-cave, it would not need to be replaced (yet). We have been planning to replace them with the new Atwoods since they were first mentioned on Foreforms.

The recent report about (one of) the motors running 24/7 caused us to reconsider that path. After Rudy's detailed (happy) owner review, we are back on that bandwagon.

I talked to the Service man at Camperland. They are willing to install the Atwoods as if they came through their dock instead of our RV basement. Their Parts manager says that we can purchase them (with freight) from PPL, cheaper than they can buy them from their distributor. They will give us a 90-day warranty on the installation and honor the Atwood warranty after that. At the moment, their schedule is about two weeks out.

Based on early responses from my message, that is our intent.

Thank you for your detailed response. I am sure that your mention of Dometic's silencer kit will be of interest to many members.

Trent

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #6 – June 13, 2015, 10:54:29 am

Check "my12voltstore". They have the 15K unit with ceiling unit included for $639.00 . This is where both Rudy and I ordered ours. Mine came in two days later by Fedx--$79 shipping cost. My 12volt store is very easy to work with.
Like Rudy, I am extremely satisfied with my units. They work great and are extremely quiet. Another nice feature is that the ceiling unit is the same size as the old dometic ceiling unit so it covers the "shadow".

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #7 – June 13, 2015, 11:00:10 am

Trent,

The thermostat for Non-Ducted units is in the ceiling unit. So, no external control thermostat is needed or used. The remote control allows control from my easy chair.

A quick call to Atwood on Monday would find out how Ducted units are controlled as I did not ask that question when I researched my install and the other two Foretravels I saw are NonDucted also so no info on Ducted was shown to myself.

The only wires I needed were the existing 120 vac romex that powered the old A/Cs. No 12 vdc power is needed. So remove wire nuts from 120 vac wires, R&R A/Cs, connect wires with wire nuts and turn on was all I did. My Dometic wall mounted thermostats have been abandoned in place long ago.

Carolyn has a decorative plate she wanted to mount on a wall. We removed the Dometic front thermostat and placed the plate there.

The $1338 total cost was everything, tax (none), shipping and install (my labor). Like Kemah John, mine arrived in two days. Kemah John got me going and was kind to show his to me. Thanks again John for helping me get DW happy.

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #8 – June 13, 2015, 12:46:55 pm

For those of us with older analog thermostats which include no ducts ('96 and earlier), I see the Atwood as the best option today. Remote control with no real additional work, quiet and cold.

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #9 – June 13, 2015, 01:24:22 pm

I just discovered that the Coleman Mach 8 is also a two-motor design. It is made just up the road from me, in Wichita, KS.

I think that Foretravel is now putting Colemans in their new units, but do not know which model. (Anyone here know?)

Any Fofumers have any knowledge/experience about Coleman Mach 8 (low profile, 8" tall) Air Conditioning/heat pump units?

Thanks,

Trent
(My wagon must be tipping again)

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #10 – June 13, 2015, 01:33:54 pm

Trent,

I like Coleman vs Dometic. I have had them (not the one you mentioned) on my coach for 4 years. Replaced motors every 18 months and had just done so when I switched to Atwood. Replaced start capacitors in each one once in 4 years. Worked fine just much louder than Atwood. If no Atwood available, I would still have them.

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #11 – June 13, 2015, 08:54:40 pm

Howdy Rudy,
I too, am interested in the Atwood. I've been following/bookmarking your posts on the great features of these units. As you know, I have a '00 U320 with Aqua-Hot (which you keep serviced). The Comfort Control also handles the zone heating. Any thoughts/advice/opinions on how to control the zone heating after installing the Atwoods? I actually like the idea, that the A/Cs are "stand-alone" units and not tied to the CC.
Thanks for your help, Dave A

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #12 – June 13, 2015, 08:55:15 pm

Trent
I still have the original Dometics on my 2001 U 270- running fine right now. I had the motor replaced in the rear unit about 5 years ago. Use them when I need to as my dash air does not work at all. I did a good cleaning of coils, replaced filters, etc this past winter.

If you can fix them rather than replace them- it is money well spent in my opinion. Check with Bernd to see if he can fix them at a reasonable cost and that you can expect to get good service out of them.

Best of luck.
Ted

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #13 – June 13, 2015, 09:10:32 pm

Quote from: TulsaTrent – June 13, 2015, 10:40:42 am

Kent,

The back unit has not worked since we bought our Foretravel last August. The front unit works, but is extremely noisy.

Before you buy a new front A/C, remove the air distribution box on the ceiling by taking off the two grills. I think there are six screws in total to remove the air box, then look for three 7/16" bolts. These three bolts keep the roof unit tight to the roof. These bolts need to be tight to keep the roof unit from vibrating. It is also likely that the foam seal between the roof unit and the coach's roof has collapsed. You might get by with nothing more than a $30 seal kit.

By the way the Penguin II heat pump can also be set for automatic where the heat pump or the A/C comes on as needed but the air handling motor only stays on when it needed.

430

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #14 – June 13, 2015, 09:59:47 pm

Do your roof a/c work? Often the motor could use a little oil, and the evaporator coil can be VERY dirty preventing air movement. Your original roof air's will probably run 20 years or more if cleaned out. There is some details on cleaning, which entails removing roof plastic cover, removing the large angled metal cover over the evap coil and cleaning off the stuff stuck to the intake side. This side of the coil may be seen from looking up above the ceiling filter.
Even though our roof air's work fine, we replaced the two tall capacitors and a small resistor in each roof unit as a preventative. Maintenance may keep things running.

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #15 – June 13, 2015, 10:08:43 pm

Dave,

Your existing controls would command the Aqua Hot even if it were no longer used to command A/Cs. I do not know how Atwood commands Ducted units so I have no specific info. I am sure there is a way or Atwood would not be offering Ducted units.

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #16 – June 13, 2015, 11:28:16 pm

Quote from: Ted & Karen – June 13, 2015, 08:55:15 pm

If you can fix them rather than replace them- it is money well spent in my opinion. Check with Bernd to see if he can fix them at a reasonable cost and that you can expect to get good service out of them.

Ted,

Thanks for the suggestion. We may have already taken too long to close that barn door. Jean really looks forward to the new and quieter A/C's. We are going to the FMCA rally in Madison. I noticed that Atwood was going to be one of the exhibitors. Unfortunately, she wants the new A/C's *before* the trip. We will visit HWH and relatives in Minneapolis on the way.

BTW, I have seen many recommendations for Bernd and several sad (really, really sad) stories about FOT experiences. I have always got quick responses from James, but I have never yet had service performed there. I need some, but their scheduling seems too booked.

Trent

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #17 – June 13, 2015, 11:47:18 pm

Quote from: Kent Speers – June 13, 2015, 09:10:32 pm

Before you buy a new front A/C, remove the air distribution box on the ceiling by taking off the two grills. I think there are six screws in total to remove the air box, then look for three 7/16" bolts. These three bolts keep the roof unit tight to the roof. These bolts need to be tight to keep the roof unit from vibrating. It is also likely that the foam seal between the roof unit and the coach's roof has collapsed. You might get by with nothing more than a $30 seal kit.

Kent,

I like the way you think.

Thank you very much for the detailed instructions and tips. Being our first RV, I had not thought of things like tightening attachment bolts or replacing the foam seal. Is there anything on the bottom of the unit to hold onto to raise it high enough to replace the gasket? I have a couple of those long blue jacks that are sold as cargo stops for trucks. 80 pounds would be a little heavy for one, but maybe not for both. especially if I can stand on a platform and push up, too.

I wouldn't try to do that for installation, but it might work for raising the unit in place far enough to replace the gasket. Hope springs eternal.

None of this would be as important if the dash air worked. I am pretty sure it worked when we first bought our RV, but quit before we got home. Later I discovered the belt was missing along with small rubbery black gunk spread around the ceiling. I have a new Gates Green Stripe to replace it. Guess it is better to find out the compressor is frozen (it does not appear to be) at home than out on the road. It is on the ever-lengthening list of things I want/need to do before we head out.

Are we having fun, or what?

Trent

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #18 – June 14, 2015, 07:22:19 am

Check your condenser fan too. They have a habit of shorting out from road grime then the compressor heats up and the limit switch kills it.

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #19 – June 14, 2015, 07:31:05 am

Quote from: TulsaTrent – June 13, 2015, 11:47:18 pm

I had not thought of things like tightening attachment bolts

Do check the specs on those bolts before tightening, if they're the ones I'm thinking of. I don't have our Penguin II instructions here and I can't recall what the maximum torque spec'd is. I do recall that there is a warning on the installation instructions that if you overtighten you can deform the A/C base and cause a leak. It's probably a good idea to watch the gasket as you tighten to make sure it stays an even thickness all around.

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #20 – June 14, 2015, 09:02:45 am

The A/C gasket is foam rubber. They are normally compressed to 1/2 their original height. Overtightening almost invariably leads to leaks, as does being over-loose.

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #21 – June 14, 2015, 09:05:15 am

Since this thread is all over the place, and the resident A/C "experts" are watching, I would like to ask about a "dripping water" problem. Our coach has the 2 original Penguin units, which are still cooling great. We have had zero problems with them up to our current trip. It's been very hot/humid and we are running both units almost continually. The front unit is functioning perfectly. The rear unit suddenly started draining/dripping water inside the coach. If I remove the inside filters, I can see the water running down various bolts and parts, depending on the attitude of the coach. Tilting the coach side to side or front to back doesn't stop the water flow, but changes from what point it drips. I went topside, took the shroud off, and removed the metal cover over the evaporator. The evaporator coils are clean, and the drain holes in the little styrofoam "pan" under the evaporator are open. The water isn't coming from the evaporator - as the unit runs it is accumulating in the pan under the compressor area, then finding it's way inside the coach (somehow).

I didn't (yet) have time to pull the covers off the front unit to compare operation. Anybody have any brilliant ideas why this one unit has suddenly decided to "take a leak" on our bed?

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #22 – June 14, 2015, 09:21:04 am

Chuck,

Sounds like a clogged condensate drain.

There are two completely different sources of "water in the coach" from the A/C's. One is the seal to the roof. If it leaks when it rains, A/C not running, that is the source. The other source is condensation from the evaporator not being able to work its way to the roof (earlier models) or condensate drain late models.

Best advice is to buy some A/C evaporator (not condenser) cleaner. From the roof, access the evaporator-- lots of little screws if the OE A/C. Use an old beach towel or something like that to block the hole to the coach interior/ have someone hold an empty Rubbermade tub under the A/C inside the coach. Clean the evaporator and drain passages. You will probably be shocked at how dirty the evaporator is!

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #23 – June 14, 2015, 09:48:49 am

Thanx Brett.
What puzzles me is that the water doesn't seem to be coming from the evaporator- it and the tray under it are dry. The condensate water is accumulating in the metal pan under the compressor area, but I can't see exactly where it is coming from. I will certainly try the evaporator cleaner (when we get home), but I suspect there is another problem - just don't know what.

Re: Replacing Air Conditioners

Reply #24 – June 14, 2015, 10:03:01 am

Quote from: TulsaTrent – June 13, 2015, 11:47:18 pm

Kent,

I like the way you think.

Thank you very much for the detailed instructions and tips. Being our first RV, I had not thought of things like tightening attachment bolts or replacing the foam seal. Is there anything on the bottom of the unit to hold onto to raise it high enough to replace the gasket? I have a couple of those long blue jacks that are sold as cargo stops for trucks. 80 pounds would be a little heavy for one, but maybe not for both. especially if I can stand on a platform and push up, too.

I wouldn't try to do that for installation, but it might work for raising the unit in place far enough to replace the gasket. Hope springs eternal.

Trent

Remember, I don't have a ducted A/C unit so the inside part of yours may be different. To change the foam seal no need for jacks, simply remove the air box as described in my previous post and remove the three 8" bolts while having someone help hold up the metal ceiling plate. Unhook both wiring looms and carefully detach the accordion connector and set the entire ceiling unit aside. Replacement accordion ducts are no longer available so be careful how you handle the old one. You may not even have the duct on your newer unit but I mention this for others who may wish to follow this procedure.

Next get up on the roof and pick up the roof unit. It's somewhere around 100#. Lean the roof unit up on its sheet metal side so you can get to the old gasket. It will take some elbow grease, a plastic scraper, some denatured alcohol and time to remove and clean the surface for the application of the new seal. You can apply the seal, its self adhesive, either on the base of the A/C unit or on the roof. I've seen it done both ways. I suggest putting it on the roof. Once the seal is in place flip the roof unit back down and carefully try to get it centered over the hole then go back inside the coach and maneuver the roof unit until the attaching bolt holes will line up with the inside metal plate. This procedure isn't real easy. It takes time and is much easier if you are tall or get a little stool to stand on.

This is also a great time to thoroughly clean the roof unit.

My bet it just tightening the bolts will make a huge difference. Regarding how tight, as Brent said 1/2 the thickness on a new seal or just until you feel moderate resistance on the 1/8" ratchet.

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