Starting Problems

Topic: Starting Problems (Read 1071 times) previous topic - next topic

Starting Problems

July 30, 2015, 09:44:14 am

Recently I've had a few occasions where I turn the key the engine does not start. I hear the click at the dash and dash lights light up. When it does start it immediately fires right up without hesitation so I'm reluctant to believe the starter is bad. Diesel mechanics at work are telling me that there should be a four prong relay which might be bad. I suspect it is something like this or a solenoid. Wondering what to check first. Going to have a 2nd person listen at the engine for any clicking sounds but haven't done that yet.

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #1 – July 30, 2015, 10:08:25 am

When that happen with mine, it was the positive chassis battery cable with the post that the starter is connected to that was the problem. Ordered new cable but in the mean time put a cotter pin between the top post and retightened. Some have even changed to a military type connection.

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #2 – July 30, 2015, 10:34:58 am

Quote from: Dwayne – July 30, 2015, 09:44:14 am

Wondering what to check first. Going to have a 2nd person listen at the engine for any clicking sounds but haven't done that yet.

If you can get to the engine batteries easily, buy a battery terminal cleaner at an auto part store. Remove and clean both the battery post and with the other end of the cleaner, clean the inside of the terminal/cable. Good time to pull the cables off and clean the mating surfaces. I replaced the nuts/bolts with stainless steel for about $15.

Second suspect will be the big silver solenoid under the dash top. They do go bad occasionally. At the present time, the Cole-Hersee latest solenoid is part number 24213. This is the OEM equivalent. About $45 good price at a parts store. Use only this number as other numbers may not be continuous duty. A solid state version is also available for about $150. 24213: Solenoids & Relays | Steel & Phenolic Body Solenoids24213 | Cole Hersee -...

The small terminals are for the 12V from the key and ground. Does not make any difference which is ground or 12V. The old solenoid may only have one small terminal for the key voltage. The solenoid is then bolted down to a ground. A ground wire is needed to the second small terminal.

If not up to DIY electrical, have someone else do it. Best with engine battery disconnected!

Pierce

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #3 – July 30, 2015, 11:33:35 am

Pierce,
Do you have a part number for the solid state version of the 24213? A quick search didn't bring it up for me.
Thanks, Don
Edit: I should say that I found Solenoids & Relays | Electronic Solenoid/Relays48785 | Cole Hersee - Littelfuse
Which is 85 amp continuous/ 120 amp intermittent, but I suppose that might be more than adequate for this application. It doesn't seem that they make a higher rated one...
Don

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – July 30, 2015, 10:34:58 am

Second suspect will be the big silver solenoid under the dash top. They do go bad occasionally. At the present time, the Cole-Hersee latest solenoid is part number 24213. This is the OEM equivalent. About $45 good price at a parts store. Use only this number as other numbers may not be continuous duty. A solid state version is also available for about $150. 24213: Solenoids & Relays | Steel & Phenolic Body Solenoids24213 | Cole Hersee -...

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #4 – July 30, 2015, 11:51:27 am

I would check your ground terminal. Take it off clean the area and use a flat washer not the star washer.

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #5 – July 30, 2015, 12:16:19 pm

Quote from: Don & Tys (AKA acousticart) – July 30, 2015, 11:33:35 am

Pierce,
Edit: I should say that I found Solenoids & Relays | Electronic Solenoid/Relays48785 | Cole Hersee - Littelfuse
Which is 85 amp continuous/ 120 amp intermittent, but I suppose that might be more than adequate for this application. It doesn't seem that they make a higher rated one...
Don

Don,

The 48785 will do the trick for the front engine solenoid but would not meet specs for the boost solenoid. The garden variety 24213 is cheap and works in all locations but as some have found, may be subject to failure, especially in the boost solenoid position where some leave it on most all the time. For a DIYer, the mechanical solenoid may be taken apart and repaired with not too much work.

A more trouble free solid state solenoid that will fit all requirements and work in all Foretravel solenoid locations may be found at Bluesea: L Solenoid - 12/24V DC 250A - Blue Sea Systems

Since we almost never use the boost solenoid, it didn't seem economical to buy the Blueseas to us but if you add up a couple of solenoid changes plus the troubleshooting, it might be less expensive in the long run. Less hair pulling too.

Pierce

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #6 – July 30, 2015, 12:49:11 pm

Dwayne,

As suggested above, check the simple stuff first. If you do decide to replace the under-dash solenoid, these are good prices on the 9012.

Previous version: Blue Sea Systems 12 24 Volt L Series Solenoid Switch 9012 | eBay

Current version: Amazon.com : Blue Sea Systems 9012 Solenoid Switch L-Series 12-24V : Boating...

Photos of the Blue Sea 9012 installed in our coach - your set-up should be similar.

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #7 – July 30, 2015, 01:35:34 pm

Would I be hearing the loud click under the dash and have all my dash lights if this was the culprit?

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #8 – July 30, 2015, 01:47:30 pm

Clicking may indicate the solenoid is working. Connect a test light grounding the clip and using the probe on the passenger's side big lug. It should light the tester when you go to the start position.

If you have not lifted the dash top before, it may take a bit of effort and good to have another person to help with the first inch or so.

Pierce

the heat (109 yesterday in Auburn) and smoke from the fire are keeping us inside and close to the keyboard

Will try and not blather too much.

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #9 – July 30, 2015, 03:29:49 pm

Quote

As suggested above, check the simple stuff first. If you do decide to replace the under-dash solenoid, these are good prices on the 9012.

Or you can go with the TE Electronics Kilovac Czonka III High Voltage Relay EV200AAANA . He's asking $70 but I bid $60 and got one. Haven't installed it yet though. Looks just like the Blue-Sea.

see ya
ken

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #10 – July 30, 2015, 06:27:46 pm

Quote from: kenhat – July 30, 2015, 03:29:49 pm

Or you can go with the TE Electronics Kilovac Czonka III High Voltage Relay EV200AAANA . He's asking $70 but I bid $60 and got one. Haven't installed it yet though. Looks just like the Blue-Sea.

see ya
ken

This one is asking $55, shipped:

CN Electronics Kilovac Czonka III High Voltage Relay P N EV200AAANA NWB | eBay

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #11 – July 30, 2015, 07:25:25 pm

Great price. Will make offer tomorrow. Should replace any Foretravel engine or boost solenoid.

P

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #12 – July 30, 2015, 08:07:42 pm

There could be yet-another solenoid back in the engine area on the isolator board. Then there is the final one on the starter itself. On my U225 this is how it works:

1. Ensure transmission is truly in neutral.
2. Turn ignition key on and to start - solenoid under the dash engages with an audible "click".
3. This energizes the solenoid on the isolator board (which I can jumper across to manually start the engine CAUTION this bypasses the safety limits on the transmission and the engine could start in gear and run over you!).
4. Engine start solenoid engages and the starter starts the engine.

YMMV.

Craig

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #13 – July 31, 2015, 12:11:53 am

While this unit seems like it is more than adequate for the job, given the appropriate wire size, it still uses contacts and therefore isn't what I would call solid state... but what do I know. If it would work reliably and last long enough that I forget how much it cost or when I replaced it, it could be liquid state for all I care.

That Blue Sea alternative looks like a great buy. Mouser has them listed for over $200, but they do have a more detailed spec sheet.http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/418/NG_CS_EV200_R_TBD_KILOVAC_EV200_Ser_Contactors_080-727518.pdf
They show up to 500amps continuous, but that is with 400 MCM wire, or almost double the cross section of 4-0! I think I may just spring for a few of them... How many solenoids do we have that these units would replace? 3? 4? Hmm...
Don

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – July 30, 2015, 12:16:19 pm

A more trouble free solid state solenoid that will fit all requirements and work in all Foretravel solenoid locations may be found at Bluesea: L Solenoid - 12/24V DC 250A - Blue Sea Systems
Pierce

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #14 – July 31, 2015, 08:46:08 am

Craig: I have a couple of solenoids by the isolator. Does the one on the starter look the same? Is it easy to get to? I imagine our rigs are quite similar.

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #15 – July 31, 2015, 09:29:10 am

I had this exact symptom and the post on the starter solenoid running from the positive battery lead was loose. I took it off, cleaned it and tightened it and it starts every time now. Still need boost though so I have to get in there and check out the ground situation.

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #16 – July 31, 2015, 09:47:04 am

Visual aids for current discussion: photo of my isolator panel (typical GV style), and photo of a generic starter motor.

On the isolator panel, the solenoid (on the right) with the heavy red battery cables attached to both big posts is the BOOST solenoid.
The other solenoid on the isolator panel (buried under mess of wiring) is the AUX START solenoid.

In the photo of the starter the small round silver cylinder, sitting on top of the big round motor, is the "starter solenoid".

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #17 – July 31, 2015, 09:56:59 am

I did a quick read of this and may have missed something, but have you tried turning the key on and then trying to start from the start button in the engine bay?

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #18 – July 31, 2015, 10:24:37 am

I have no aux start from engine bay.

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #19 – July 31, 2015, 11:01:15 am

Quote from: Don & Tys (AKA acousticart) – July 31, 2015, 12:11:53 am

How many solenoids do we have that these units would replace? 3? 4? Hmm...
Don

Good question. Probably differers model to model. In our case, one under the dash top, two on the isolator panel (boost and remote start). Naturally, there is no replacement for the big starter solenoid on any coach. Supplied? coach schematic will show locations without having to actually look.

Not to be confused with the latching relays for the domestic 12V water pump.

Pierce

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #20 – July 31, 2015, 02:29:23 pm

On our U225 the "boost" solenoid is on a panel next to the battery box in the basement storage just forward of the curb side rear wheels and not on the isolator board. There is a second solenoid on our isolator board but it's for the dash air conditioner (I'm pretty sure).

I am replacing all of them with a Blue Sea as it becomes necessary.

Making sure all DC connections are tight and clean is paramount (and cheap).

Good luck.
Craig

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #21 – July 31, 2015, 03:22:04 pm

Quote from: wa_desert_rat – July 31, 2015, 02:29:23 pm

There is a second solenoid on our isolator board but it's for the dash air conditioner (I'm pretty sure).

Craig,

Are you talking about a "solenoid" or a "relay". I can't think of any reason to have a heavy duty solenoid involved in the A/C operation. We do have a A/C relay on our isolator panel. In my photo above, it is mounted on the bottom left corner of the panel, and covered up by the wiring looms. There is another relay visible on the bottom right corner - it is part of the wiring for our exhaust brake.

Not questioning what you are saying - just curious. I find the "differences" between similar model Foretravel coaches quite fascinating!

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #22 – July 31, 2015, 04:56:20 pm

I have been in and under the dash area quite a bit, but have yet to spot an ignition solenoid (nothing there that looks like the typical cole heresy units that are on the isolator panel). There does look to be two them just under the drivers area near the brake treadle valve. I was on a mission to fix something else when I noticed them and so didn't take a close look. Could be that the ignition solenoid is under there on our coach... I will check it out next chance I get. I think I remember reading that Foretravel went to two solenoid so to split the load sometime around 99' because of more frequent failures due to all of the loads added to the ignition solenoid. Maybe someone here knows for sure?
Don

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – July 31, 2015, 11:01:15 am

Good question. Probably differers model to model. In our case, one under the dash top, two on the isolator panel (boost and remote start). Naturally, there is no replacement for the big starter solenoid on any coach. Supplied? coach schematic will show locations without having to actually look.

Not to be confused with the latching relays for the domestic 12V water pump.

Pierce

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #23 – July 31, 2015, 09:31:32 pm

Don,

You might check your "automotive" wiring diagram. On our U280-U300 diagram B-2126, the components mounted on the "Isolator Board", including the 2 solenoids, are shown grouped together within a dashed line. It also identifies the IGNITION SOLENOID in a box at the top left corner of the diagram, and says (IN DASH) right below it. That at least gives a clue to where it is located. Perhaps your wiring diagram will contain a similar "hint" as to number of solenoids and location?

Re: Starting Problems

Reply #24 – August 01, 2015, 06:06:47 pm

I have seen the under dash solenoid and the boost solenoid as well just where Craig says by the batteries. And likewise I have two solenoids by the isolator so I guess one of these is the start solenoid (again...just as Craig says). I have no diagrams. I also have a bosch style relay on that board too so I guess that Chuck may be right too. Perhaps the dash A/C needs a solenoid and a relay. Once I get a helper I'll test the dash solenoid with the key in start position and the solenoid by the isolator. Once verifying they are good I'll be left with the big one atop the starter. Anyone ever taken one of these off?

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