What are Differences in 320 vs 270

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What are Differences in 320 vs 270

October 02, 2015, 02:34:57 pm

Ok - I'm a newb - with something (close) to offer, and a question.

I see '97 U270 listed here: ALL Pre Owned motorhomes Inventory

for $39,500. Does it have to be a 320? Is there that much difference between U270 and U320?

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #1 – October 02, 2015, 03:22:13 pm

The differences are minor, on those years. mostly bells and whistles, stuff like electronic water fill valve vs manual valve, halogen puck lights vs flourescent, fabric vs leather couch, engine size and power, aqua hot heat vs propane furnace, etc... The u320 is higher end with more features, power, and over the top fluff that is expensive to fix compared to the u270.

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #2 – October 02, 2015, 03:28:25 pm

Welcome - Newbees are good. Take a look here by year and by model number. Also lots of other great stuff that is Foretravel.

Foretravel Specifications, Floor Plans, Photos & Brochures

Have fun.

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #3 – October 02, 2015, 03:29:27 pm

There really is not that much of a difference. With the U320 you get a bigger engine with more horsepower, and a different transmission. You also get Aquahot I believe in the '97. You get a bigger generator, and three batteries in stead of two. Bigger alternator etc.

I think the bones are mostly the same. Either way you get the Hadley air horns, so you're good to go!

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #4 – October 02, 2015, 04:54:55 pm

The most significant difference between the 1997 U320 and (U295,U270) is the engine/transmission.

The U320 came with Cummins M11 (10.8 litre) 450HP at 1500RPM, Alison 4060R transmission with retarder.

The U295 & U270 came with Cummins 8.3 litre, 350HP at 2000RPM, Alison 3060 transmission, the U295 had retarder, while U270 did not have retarder.

The wood interior of the U320 & U295 was Walnut, while the U270 was Oak.

The U320 had Aquahot and more expensive interior decorating, and more electronics, batteries, inverters.

Note that the original owners of a U270 could have paid extra to get U320 equipment (not the M11).

I wanted the M11 to be able to climb hills faster.

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #5 – October 02, 2015, 05:05:50 pm

Wyatt,

My 96-270 has retarder with variable toggle switch.

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #6 – October 02, 2015, 06:04:49 pm

Quote from: RT_Geezer – October 02, 2015, 02:34:57 pm

...........................(EDIT - U270, 1997) for $39,500. Does it have to be a 320? Is there that much difference between U270 and U320?.......................

Welcome, RT, Newb,
Some will say not much difference,
Others will say a WORLD of difference,
Only you can answer the question............AFTER YOU ARE FULLY INFORMED...........
There is a great deal of information already existing on the Forum, available through the various Forum search functions.
Having owned both, I feel there is a WORLD of difference and it all depends upon what the owner(s) derive satisfaction/pleasure from;
If you want simplicity, ease of maintenance, lowest cost of maintenance, most value for the dollar expended................choose the U270 w/mechanical engine (1998 and older). 1998 was the transition year for FT from the KISS 8.3C, medium duty, mechanical engine used in the U270's and U295's (plenty large enough to haul around a 24' enclosed car hauler trailer.....BTW).
If you desire the high-end "Bells and Whistles" (w/the attendant complications), higher maintenance, more annual costs, less time and resources available in the future to upgrade and improve to make the coach more agreeable with your own personal needs and wants.....................choose the U320 w/M11 power and drive-train. The U320 and 4000R series Allison is vastly faster, more heavy duty, more complex and quite a bit more expensive to troubleshoot/service/maintain.
Both perspectives are valid and only you can ultimately answer your own question.
We tried one world with our 1998 U270 for 16 years and found it to be extremely enjoyable.
We are now in the 2002 U320 highly opulent (by comparison) world and we are also enjoying it (very much). BUT NOW, our time and budget is primarily spent on keeping things working and/or making things tolerable vs. significant upgrades to make the overall coach more closely fit our needs/wants.
Most U320/M11 owners won't state these facts, either because their time and budget is not such that it is even an issue with them or they feel that they need to obscure the facts by being only partly informative in favor of their particular bias.
I would be pleased to elaborate, on or offline, if you want more specifics. (six oh three, seven, seven zero, 7459 if you want to call).
Ultimately, though, you need to do the research and determine what fits your needs and wants the best, including how you want to budget your future years with the coach that you choose.
Neal

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #7 – October 02, 2015, 06:26:15 pm

My 95 U320 is pretty darned simple with a jake and no Aquahot.

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #8 – October 02, 2015, 06:42:44 pm

Hi Dave,
I agree, but not many U320's came standard in that configuration. And fully informed is sometimes difficult to arrive at, with all of the possible FT variables, over the years.
It used to be much harder pre-internet and pre Forum, like when we were researching our 1998 U270.
Neal

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #9 – October 02, 2015, 06:52:07 pm

Neal,

Not having owned any FT other our 2003 U320 (for 11.5 years now), can you outline at a "high level" (no actual costs required) what you have identified as the major maintenance expense differences between your '98 U270 and the '02 U320?

Is it cost of engine filters? Quantities of fluids? Are the maintenance intervals different?

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #10 – October 02, 2015, 07:11:25 pm

I would certainly like to read the "facts" showing that my U320 is significantly more expensive to maintain than is a U270. My experience says those "facts" are myths.

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #11 – October 02, 2015, 08:11:24 pm

When I moved from a 295 c7 cat to a 320 ism, I found the cummins oil filter $12 more than the cat filter.
But when I consider the bigger fridge with built in icemaker, bigger inverter, with upgraded monitor, aquahot, extra batteries, bigger generator, all leather furniture, better blinds, dual pane windows, heat pumps in the ac's, but especially the extra 150 hp, the extra $12 every year is not that big a deal.

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #12 – October 02, 2015, 08:22:13 pm

Forrest's oil capacity is 20 qrts. I am almost certain the Big Block M11 is almost double that amount.

Ps. The propane furnace & water heater have not cost a dime in maintenance as I can do all the annuals in those. Aquahot?

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #13 – October 02, 2015, 08:34:16 pm

The trick is to understand what the differences are and what is important to you. If we had never had an Aquahot we likely wouldn't miss it. The extra horsepower is nice, more than I had before, would 350 have been enough? I have no idea. We started looking at 34' U270s. Hard to find. Then maybe more horse power. Led us to the 295s or 320s, 36'. Then you find what you find when you are ready to buy. For us it was a 2001 36' U320. No looking back, it has been wonderful. Floor plan, features, and finances. Do what many say, buy your last coach first.

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #14 – October 02, 2015, 08:34:41 pm

Quote from: Peter & Beth – October 02, 2015, 08:22:13 pm

Ps. The propane furnace & water heater have not cost a dime in maintenance as I can do all the annuals in those. Aquahot?

Fuel filter and a nozzle. Not terribly expensive (less than $50). Checking gap is free as is cleaning combustion chamber. Steve does the labor himself.

I do admit we spend $24/year on potable antifreeze to winterize the fresh water system because we have the AH and a Splendide and live where hard freezes are a risk during winter storage months.

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #15 – October 02, 2015, 08:41:37 pm

no replacement for the increase comfort and convenience of the aqua hot IMO.

Would have a serious problem purchasing a non aquahot coach after having old Marquis and country coaches with webasto units and now the aqua hot.

Aqua hot has a limiter in the system to lower the flow to match their continuous hot water claim.

That's why the other brands made up their own units using the similar webasto burner.

More hot water output. Might finally run out although

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #16 – October 02, 2015, 08:59:01 pm

"Forrest's oil capacity is 20 qrts. I am almost certain the Big Block M11 is almost double that amount."

18 quarts more, but cat recommends 10000 mile oil changes, cummins 15000, so almost a wash.

No figures to back me up, but it appears to me, I used more propane, [dollar wise] for furnaces and hot water heater in the winter, than I did for diesel for the aquahot. Added advantage of aquahot, if dry camping, uses less power than
propane furnaces, if run overnight on battery.

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #17 – October 02, 2015, 11:34:02 pm

Here's my opinion...and I can back it up pretty well.

If you live in the South and it rarely gets below freezing and never gets to 10F or lower, no aquahot is the way to go. Running the complex aquahot system just to make hot water is foolish. For the cool days, you'll have a propane furnace or two. The whole furnace can be replaced for $400-600. The entire water heater for the same price. The water heater is dirt simple and it works off electric and engine heat. You'll never have a need for the comfort of the AH.

Also, the South is lower elevation and flatter, overall....so the HP difference isn't such a big deal.

Now, if you live in Wyoming, the aquahot is probably something you would want. And the elevation and big hills makes the HP nice to have. And this is why I'm in the market for a u320 to complement my 34' u270 that I love (and will keep).

The other differences, like the "bus style" compartment doors are nice....the remainder stuff is just gizmos that don't matter that much.

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #18 – October 02, 2015, 11:46:10 pm

Quote from: krush – October 02, 2015, 11:34:02 pm

Here's my opinion...and I can back it up pretty well.

If you live in the South and it rarely gets below freezing and never gets to 10F or lower, no aquahot is the way to go. Running the complex aquahot system just to make hot water is foolish. For the cool days, you'll have a propane furnace or two. The whole furnace can be replaced for $400-600. The entire water heater for the same price. The water heater is dirt simple and it works off electric and engine heat. You'll never have a need for the comfort of the AH.

Also, the South is lower elevation and flatter, overall....so the HP difference isn't such a big deal.

I like your reasoning.

Now, if you live in Wyoming, the aquahot is probably something you would want. And the elevation and big hills makes the HP nice to have. And this is why I'm in the market for a u320 to complement my 34' u270 that I love (and will keep).

The other differences, like the "bus style" compartment doors are nice....the remainder stuff is just gizmos that don't matter that much.

My made up line when being asked these questions long ago as a Foretravel sales manager was this.

"You pay for everyone of your pleasures. And if you paid less it probably was not as much fun, was it?"

The customers normally laughed. Carefully.

Then I added "no one a hundred years from now will know what you did. Please yourself"

"As long as the kids and grand kids were going to come out OK ,of course"

Worked well.

Lastly

"This is not necessarily a rational decision to start with so you might as well get what you want"

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #19 – October 03, 2015, 12:04:02 am

My U295 is a 2003 model. I've owned it for 7 years now. It has just about all the U320 upgrades possible, except for the larger engine/transmission and Aquahot.

When I was first looking, I really wanted a U320. I wanted the extra power and the Aquahot.

Now I am more than satisfied with what I have. This coach is 38' long, with one slide, and no tag axle. It meets my needs perfectly.

I thought I would want Aquahot for unlimited hot water. I've never run out of hot water when running the water heater on propane. Sometimes I run out when running on electric alone, but never when running on propane or electric and propane.

I thought I would want Aquahot for quiet heat. I've resorted to running the rear furnace during the day and the front furnace at night. This keeps the noise in the other end of the coach. This is exactly the way I run the roof A/C-heat pump units. It works

That leaves lower 12 volt power drain while boon docking overnight. Yes, Aquahot wins on this.

However, maintenance costs for Aquahot are higher and good service is harder to find than for my two furnaces and water heater.

Now for the power issue. Yes, I feel seriously underpowered. Today I drove southbound on the I5, over the Grapevine to Los Angeles. I was towing my Acura MDX, which is rather heavy as towed cars go. I could hold at 50-52MPH. I'll bet a U320 would give me another 2-5MPH, and get me home maybe 20 minutes sooner. By the way, I was passed my many cars and one empty big rig truck (he was doing at least 80).

I certainly would love to have another 100-200 HP, but am more than satisfied with what I have now.

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #20 – October 03, 2015, 12:06:34 am

As currently set I pulled the same hill at 50mph.

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #21 – October 03, 2015, 12:50:56 am

Quote from: Michelle – October 02, 2015, 06:52:07 pm

Neal,

Not having owned any FT other our 2003 U320 (for 11.5 years now), can you outline at a "high level" (no actual costs required) what you have identified as the major maintenance expense differences between your '98 U270 and the '02 U320?

Is it cost of engine filters? Quantities of fluids? Are the maintenance intervals different?

Quote from: D.J. Osborn – October 02, 2015, 07:11:25 pm

I would certainly like to read the "facts" showing that my U320 is significantly more expensive to maintain than is a U270. My experience says those "facts" are myths.

Michelle/DJ
Some of the costs are obvious and preloaded up front:
e.g. - Initial Cost:
In equal states of repair and condition (or conversely, disrepair or bad condition) an M11/4000Series Allison will cost more than an 8.3/3000Series Allison, regardless whether new or used, just as a U320 trim level will cost more than a U270. To the experienced buyer, the type and quality of upgrades should be nearly as important as the two factors above (but it seldom is to the newb).

Most of the costs are ongoing, some obvious, others not so obvious:
e.g. - One obvious family of costs you've already mentioned: while service intervals and fluid test intervals/costs remain comparable, the quantities of fluids and the cost of the larger U320 filters are vastly different. Even for DIY's, it about doubles the routine service interval cost in terms of fluids, filters and disposal costs alone.

e.g. - CCC/GVWR:
In order to achieve equal coach CCC and GVWR capacities, because the power train in the U320 is so much heavier, a tag axle is required, so 6 vs. 8 tires, 6 vs. 8 brakes, 8 vs. 10 air bags, X vs. Y shocks, weighing costs, tag control system components and all of the associated service time and/or costs (the rest of the chassis construction/maintenance is essentially "Unicoach" across the U270/U295/U320 platforms). As an aside, and as many of us have found out, a newer 42', U320, tag axle coach doesn't have as much storage room in it as an older, 36', U270, non-tag coach has. Each slide, the private potty, the tag, the larger generator w/side radiator pkg., all take away storage space.

e.g. - Batteries:
Likewise, the service life and preventative maintenance cost of (4) (2 engine and 2 house) vs. (6) (3 and 3) AGM or GEL U270 VS. U320 batteries. Preventative maintenance costs remain comparable but the corrective maintenance costs (replacement costs) are very different. The same with the 42 ft U320's three air conditioners vs. the 36' and 40' U270's two air conditioners.

e.g. - KISS (Keeping It Super Simple) Heating/Hot Water:
The U320 Aqua Hot (standard) initial cost is obviously many times more expensive than the U270/295 propane furnace(s), but what isn't obvious is that the operating/maintenance costs are many times again more expensive. In colder weather, maintaining the large Aqua Hot system volume of water at the much higher system temperature (for heating vs. just hot water) is much more expensive than the U270/U295 electric/propane (essentially "on-demand") hot water/heating system. Last winter, during my recovery from back surgery (Jan. and Feb. in NH), it became abundantly clear that the U270 routine operating costs (propane) were far less than one half the (diesel fuel) U320 Aqua Hot operating costs.
Another obvious is the Aqua Hot annual maintenance vs. the propane furnace. Our U270 cost less than $100 in service and repairs (parts and labor) in 16 years. At a minimum, having your Aqua Hot professionally serviced is a few hundred dollars a year. Our Aqua Hot has cost 10 times that in our first year and it still has issues that "local service reps" don't seem to have the ability to cure ( occasional sputtering and "backpuffing" and, NO, Rudy isn't available right next door). No it's not air in the supply lines and the filters have been clean upon inspection/replacement. New nozzles and two burner services haven't reduced the black diesel soot all over the bushes on the port side of the coach. BTW, shut all of the windows and don't sit or work outside on the port side of the coach while the Aqua Hot is running, either, unless you want to be in the diesel exhaust stream.
On another side issue, many owners exude praise for the Aqua Hot "quiet" operation. We found that once we went through the modifications in the U320 that slow down and make the Aqua Hot distribution fans variable in speed, and we modified the dash fan controls so that we can switch off the high speed dash fan whenever the front Aqua Hot zone called for heat, we can comfortably hear the TV and the noise levels have become less than a U270 propane furnace. But, before those modifications, we found the original design was more noisy in our 2002, U320 than the propane furnace was in our U270. So the original design was not a noise improvement in the U320. I don't know if that is peculiar to the 2002 model design or misinformation from others on the merits of the Aqua Hot.
BTW, each of the three (heat pump) AC's in the U320 remain to be significantly more noisy than the two (heat strip) AC's in the U270. The saving grace is that the U320 heat pump AC's don't spew carbonized black residue onto a fabric ceiling (leaving a black carbon plume that is difficult, if not impossible, to totally eradicate). The ceilings and dash in the U320 are much easier to clean and preserve, using the same Wash 'n Wax All products as are used on the ultra-leather seating surfaces.

But I digress from your questions:

e.g. - Controls Complexity:
In 16 years, I never had a U270 switch or latching relay fail (there were only 2 latching relays on the '98 U270). In the U320, the THREE "bells and whistles" U320 Intellitec computers (for remote water fill and water pump ON/OFF operation as well as dozens of remote lighting choices) have all individually failed. Because the originals are no longer available, the three computers and all 12 remote switching stations have been replaced at a total cost of several thousand dollars. Intellitec is a wonderful "bell and whistles" feature -- but it is not a KISS or budget-friendly U320 feature!

e.g. - Even though I had to lock things manually, I was never locked out of a U270 compartment. I have had more than one remote locking motor fail without prior indication or announcement, leading to more than one "deep diving expedition". Our first year "bells and whistles" remote locking motor costs have far exceeded the 16 year U270 manual lock mechanism costs.

e.g. - What do you do with LED rope lighting (buried in valance fabric) that has just one LED out (unsightly X several valances)? The U270 had no rope lighting. Nice to enhance atmosphere. Not as inexpensive time and cost wise to maintain.

e.g. - Count up the number of puck lighting and rope lighting fixtures as well as preventative and corrective maintenance actions/costs, topside and below; U270 vs. U320 = easily more than a 3::1 ratio........48 puck lights above the coach belt-line alone. Maybe only a few hundred dollars to upgrade to LED's, BUT, a LOT more DIY (or purchased man-hours) costs on a U320 vs. a U270.

e.g. - What is the ratio of U320 vs. U270 "touch-light" door handle and door bell issues?

Another element in the equation is evolution:
e.g. - As the 1995 U-whatever evolved through 2007?, in order to remain competitive, the coaches became more and more sophisticated and complex. As has already been pointed out, U320's could be had in 1995 without retarders and Aqua Hots. But by 2003, standard models could not be had without Aqua Hots and Intellitec Lighting controls.
e.g. - Nor did a simple, easily repaired, 1998 U270 aux. air compressor remain viable. With slides and then multiple slides, the simple compressors did not have the high volume needed to support the increased air needs. With increased air volume came fancy water and desiccant filters (three on our coach, even without our having any slides). But with evolution, I now have desiccant that is turning pink in less than three months in the Northeast. And even with my aux air compressor running only once each two to three days, the aux compressor is moving enough air that I often find moisture in the front air tanks. Evolution is nice. Less KISS and increased maintenance and complexity? Not as nice. There must be a better solution than the (either expensive or time consuming or both) desiccant solution.

These are but a few examples. Considering it realistically, most of us can come up with many more complexity and cost examples.

Long story short, many owners have either NOT experienced both worlds or, for whatever reason, have not been forthcoming with unbiased realities (facts).

When we were doing our research, prior to purchasing what we thought would be our "First and Last Foretravel Coach", we had an incredibly hard time sorting out fact from fiction among several brands and brand sub-models of interest. Most of the data gathering, that eventually led us to a new, 1998, U270 purchase, was loaded with partial truths and biased opinions that were not based upon fact. I only wish that we had had the internet and a Forum such as this to help address the questions that I had then.

The choice between a U270 and a U320 is highly personal and (in my opinion) one needs to decide what their ongoing budget target IS as well as exactly what their KISS target "comfort level" IS. One's targets may change over time, much as ours did, but one can easily become either disenchanted with their decision (to go for too simple or to go for too complex - either way) or engulfed in unanticipated costs, if realistic needs and wants are not considered well before taking that initial leap. There IS a world of difference between a U320 and a U270 in any model year and then over the 1995 to 2007? evolution in terms of complexity and costs.

Current owners that are not forthcoming and helpful (unbiased) in providing factual answers to newb's (or current FT owner's considering a change in models) sincere questions are doing others a disservice.

For that reason alone, it would be nice to see a lot more questions directed at (and input received from) Nimbus, Phenix and iH owners.
Neal

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #22 – October 03, 2015, 08:22:15 am

Neal,

Great post and obviously well thought out an passionate.

Having owned a 36' U-270 (1999) and the current 40" U-320 (2000 single slide) I too have my feelings about the difference and relative operating economics.

The storage loss on the U-320 due to the slide on the slide side overhead is real. In my case (non tag 40" coach) it was more than made up in the cabin and basement by the extra 4 feet.

I haven't looked at the delta in operating cost of the Aqua Hot vs. propane furnace. As a percentage of overall operating cost of the entire rig, the delta is probably negligible.

For me, the furnaces on the u-270 woke me up at night when they cycled on and off, the Aquahot doesn't. I love the endless shower capability when in a campground with city water and sewer connection. In the 8 years I have owned the coach, scheduled annual maintenance runs $165. Outside of that I had one burner can replacement ($600) and one control unit replacement ($850?) Yup quite a bit more expensive than Propane over that time. The extra $3,000 over nine years as a % of total cost of ownership? Rounding error in the big picture.

Slide vs. Non slide - Bladder was changed out prior to my purchase - no slide trouble in 9 years of use. This past year I did have delamintation (factory defect on these models due to glue used in manufacture) fixed at Extreme after living with it all the years I owned the coach. Was there for a step upgrade and decided to leave a few extra coach bucks with Xtreme - could have left it alone, but want to keep this one a long time.

Yes, the U-320 is bigger, heavier, more complex and more to buy and run than my U-270. I want the aqua hot and the slide - so the U-320 fits my mission and my economics. Some want newer, some want older, some want slide, some want aqua hot. One size doesn't fit all, and thankfully we have a wide range of choices and options in the Foretravel family.

I really don't think that the delta in OPEX between the two will usually drive a decision one way or the other, until you get to 20+ year old coaches that have OPEX as a greater percent of total cost of ownership, and repair/replacement OPEX is a high percentage of the total operating cost due to age of machine/systems and relatively low CAPEX costs to acquire.

More likely needs (or wants disguised as needs) should and will drive the decision process. After all (except for full timers) the RV purchase is totally discretionary and usually for acquired for personal entertainment purposes only. Emotion has to trump logic to even own one of these incredible machines, so most purchasers don't make an incredibly inefficient economic decision because they "want" one, and then shy away from the "goodies" they want on the toy because they can save an incremental 2-4% in OPEX.

My advice is more global than model specific.
- Buy a Foretravel (pretty much a given on the Forum) - Budget what you can afford, spend 80% on the coach, reserving 20% for first year maintenance and upgrades - Buy more coach than you think you need/want, size, model, year, equipment - upgrades from one coach to another are WAY more costly than anything else in the operating costs because of transaction costs - buying your last coach first saves more than anything else you can do (says the guy who has owned an OREG, U-270 and U-320) Enjoy and use it, don't let it sit.
-

I will say I haven't bought propane in 4 years since I put in the residential refrigerator, and aI still have 2/3 of a tank on board since all it rules is the two burner propane stove. I doubt that the savings in propane offset the residential refrigerator cost, but as DaveM would advise - "I am doing what makes me feel good".

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #23 – October 03, 2015, 09:57:11 am

I think I have to agree with Tim's psychological assessment about emotion trumping logic when it comes to an RV purchase. That also has to do with the bells and whistles a person might want. We try to keep things on a maintenance schedule to keep things in working order and funds that are left might be used for something we think we need. An RV is a whole new level of maintenance expense that you need to get accustomed to. Being on the farm, we have equipment that demands some very expensive maintenance at times, just like an RV or any other toy. As a matter of fact, when you look around our farm lot and see boats, ATVs, RVs, airplanes, and who knows what else, I have to question my own sanity.

Re: What are Differences in 320 vs 270

Reply #24 – October 03, 2015, 10:06:01 am

If it has a motor, I have probably owned (or own) it.......once counted up how many internal combustion engines I owned at that time. was a scary big number....

Still have a Piper Tri-pacer, Arctic Cat snowmobile, Century boat and FT RV. Missing the Polaris ATV's I sold. I just got back from renting and playing in the desert North of Phoenix. Itch, Itch....

Hey, how about a condo in Chicago, a house on Lake Geneva , and the FT.

Plus a pretty bad hunting itch with shotguns, rifles, bird dogs and equipment to support. Yikes!!!

Yes, insanity for sure....

Doing what makes me happy.....
:-)

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