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Urgent Battery Question

Sorry for the "urgent," but this request is to help a couple parked next to us who own a 1999 Foretravel U320 (no slide).

They don't use the Internet, so they aren't on the Forum, but they are a lovely pair in their 80s. I hope that if I make it to 80 I am as bright and cheerful as they are!  I think Miz Dani may know them, too?  But their problem is beyond my technical ability and they are worried that the problem may become urgent. The wife of the couple is attending to coach maintenance right now, because her husband has a really disabling knee problem.  BTW, I'm using the awkward "wife" and "husband" terms to avoid naming names, just in case they would be embarrassed.

Here's the situation:

    • They are plugged into shore power.
    • Their inverter has not worked for months, she says, but it's too expensive to replace. I've looked in the bay under their coach. The inverter itself is not visible, like our ProSine is, but a box is visible (maybe 10" wide x 8" deep, guessing from memory). It has three buttons on it that look like 30 amp circuit breakers? In my limited experience, I haven't seen a box like this and our inverter doesn't have one, but the buttons say "30."  They're all in, not popped.  The box constantly clicks, as if it's trying to do something but cannot.
    • The voltages on their in-coach battery monitoring system have dropped daily during the past week from mid-13s to high-11s. I'm sorry but I don't know what they are using to monitor voltages, because they haven't asked me into their coach, even though I invited the wife come into ours to see if our panel is the same (it was not). Haven't wanted to intrude.
    • They have a TINY trickle charger on the house battery bank, installed by a handyman in a previous park where they stayed. It's LED indicators say the batteries 80% charged, but still require charging. Not sure I trust that piece of equipment (or have any confidence it ever worked?), though I'm not technical enough to know why.
    • Their three house batteries look relatively new and appear to be (?!) gel 8Ds. At least they look very unlike the flooded batteries our coach had when we bought it, with easily removable caps. Their batteries might have "caps," if that's what they are, completely flush with the top of the battery case.  The husband is convinced those caps need to be removed, using a wide flat blade screwdriver in the slot, and distilled water added.
    • Tonight the wife phoned. Anything in the coach that runs on 120V is working — refrigerator, microwave/convection oven, 120V outlets — but 12V DC powered lights have died. That's what prompted her sense of urgency.

Help (and big, BIG thanks on their behalf, of course!). They are fine for tonight.  Susan & I checked: their heat pumps/strips are working, their AquaHot for bay heat is fine, and she said the coffeemaker will work for morning.  Susan & I were concerned because temperatures will be in the mid- to low-20s tonight.  They have our cell phone numbers if something goes wrong in the middle of the night. And the wife said she plans to start the generator tomorrow mid-day after they get back from church, to see if it charges whatever batteries they are monitoring. I'm assuming they are monitoring house, not engine, but as I said, I haven't been in their coach.

My only thought is that the charger portion of their inverter continued to work for some period of time after they determined the inverter portion did not — but it now has quit?  If so, running the generator won't make any difference, will it?  But PLEASE jump in here and feel free to say "No, you're completely wrong but here's the problem." No hurt feelings, no point-of-pride on my part, because I'm out of my technical depth and I can always learn.  Who knows?  Could happen to Susan and me.

This can be our Forum's Christmas kindness to a really wonderful couple.  Thank you, all!

Re: Urgent Battery Question

Reply #1 –
It sounds like they might need a bigger smart battery charger/converter.  If their batteries are dead then their AH pumps and heat exchanger fans will not function. I am not sure what size would work. 

Re: Urgent Battery Question

Reply #2 –
Roger,

Thanks for the quick response.  Their batteries aren't completely dead, although the wife pulled the battery disconnect when she saw the voltages dropping into the 11s to avoid further depletion.  Is it true, though, that the AH pumps and heat exchanger fans won't function — even if they are plugged into shore power?  If so, I should probably phone them right now, even though they go to sleep about 9:00 p.m.  Don't want their bays to freeze up tonight, or for them to wake up cold.

Much appreciated that you are up and answering Forum questions at almost 10:00 p.m. (our time, you're Central, right?).

Re: Urgent Battery Question

Reply #3 –
An added note:  as Susan reminded me just now, in the systems classes we did to try to be smart buyers, a distinction was made between the inverter side (12V to 120V) of a combined unit, and the "converter" (120V to 12V).  In my previous post, I was using "charger" interchangeably or as if it meant "converter."

If that makes a difference in diagnosing the couple's problem, apologies!

Re: Urgent Battery Question

Reply #4 –
That is pretty low for the batteries.  You risk damage getting much lower.

Re: Urgent Battery Question

Reply #5 –
Low batteries, for sure.  In my reading (and our limited experience with old flooded cell batteries that died), my understanding is that anything below 12.0–12.1 is likely to do damage?  That's why they hit the battery disconnect, because she thought whatever is causing the battery discharge would be stopped?

Re: Urgent Battery Question

Reply #6 –
How long have they been parked ? Did the engine charge the batteries going down the road ? Maybe the inverter/charger is turned off ? If the inverter/charger is not working on shore power, I doubt if the generator is going to help. Sounds like a quick solution would be a charger from auto supply or Wally World, then an order for a Progressive Dynamics converter. Someone else ..... Does the generator start using house, or engine batteries ?

Re: Urgent Battery Question

Reply #7 –
Quote from: toyman –
How long have they been parked ? Did the engine charge the batteries going down the road ? Maybe the inverter/charger is turned off ? If the inverter/charger is not working on shore power, I doubt if the generator is going to help. Sounds like a quick solution would be a charger from auto supply or Wally World, then an order for a Progressive Dynamics converter. Someone else ..... Does the generator start using house, or engine batteries ?

Our generator starts on the "House" batteries,
I think that most others would too.....

Re: Urgent Battery Question

Reply #8 –
Our Forum experts will probably need more info to make a "remote" diagnosis.  Would be a big help to know what brand/model inverter-charger is installed.  IF the built-in charger is malfunctioning, then it probably won't matter whether the 110 volt source is shore power or generator - still won't charge the batteries.  In that case, I see two options for temporarily charging the batteries - either use a heavy duty (external) battery charger and run it off the shore power pedestal, or start the big engine (if it will start) and let the alternator do the job.  If the house batteries are real low, it would be a BIG load on the alternator, so I would prefer the stand-alone battery charger.

Re: Urgent Battery Question

Reply #9 –
Richard, short of a battery charger if the charger side of their inverter/charger isn't working I'm not sure what to suggest.  If the house batteries are really low switching the boost switch on will just drain the chassis batteries. And then the coach won't start.  Running the coach engine will charge both sets of batteries.

If possible double check to ensure the charger is not turned off. If it is not working then the inverter and charger should be turned off and they need to get a charger, a three or four step automatic charger/maintainer, probably 40 amp or so.

I hope someone else will pop in here.  I am just not sure what else to suggest.

Re: Urgent Battery Question

Reply #10 –
We have a Freedom 25 charger/inverter. It has the three "30A" buttons on the front. A couple of days ago, it quit charging. After checking several items and finding nothing amiss, I used "percussive maintenance" and it started charging. (I slapped it with my hand.) It's not likely to help them, but it won't hurt either.

Running the "big" engine will charge the house and chassis batteries. A charger from an auto supply or big box store will charge with less noise. Either of those solutions may allow them to stay safe and comfortable until they can implement a proper repair.

Re: Urgent Battery Question

Reply #11 –
Quote from: toyman –
How long have they been parked ? Did the engine charge the batteries going down the road ? Maybe the inverter/charger is turned off ? If the inverter/charger is not working on shore power, I doubt if the generator is going to help. Sounds like a quick solution would be a charger from auto supply or Wally World, then an order for a Progressive Dynamics converter. Someone else ..... Does the generator start using house, or engine batteries ?
This coach hasn't moved in quite awhile, (Richard may know how long, since he's been there awhile) but been pretty much parked.....very nice people but elderly & coach may not be driven again for awhile, if at all. Not sure if they've started it up though or run the engine. Original owners I think.

Re: Urgent Battery Question

Reply #12 –
    Richard,
    The wife pulled what battery disconnect?  Has a disconnect been added to the troubled coach's house battery bank?  Do you mean the "salesman's dc disconnect switch" at the front door?
    An OEM  '99 U320 had (3) 8d Gel Cell batteries.  If they are gell cells, the caps on the top are overpressure vents and are not removable.  Removing a gel cell's battery caps permanently damages the battery.
    An OEM  '99 U320 had a Heart Freedom 25 Charger/Inverter, black face, (facing into the cargo bay) would have several circuit breaker resets on the face.
    If that is what is clicking, it may well be defective.  If percussive force doesn't change anything, turn both the Invertor and the Charger OFF at the control panel in the coach and find another way to charge the house batteries until the charger is repaired or replaced.  As I recall, there is a remote "enable" switch labelled ON/OFF, on the face of the Heart Freedom 25, down below.  If it has been bumped OFF or has had its position changed to OFF, the control panel up above in the coach will not be able to turn ON or OFF the inverter or the charger, either one.  As already mentioned;
      • Find a 12Vdc Charger of at least 25 amp capacity or greater: 50 amp capacity is better
      • Determine If the "Salesman's" disconnect switch has been opened, nothing dc powered is going to be operable (or present a drain) other than a limited few small alarm and control circuits.  Aqua Hot won't run, AC heat strips, dc lighting, dash instruments, Javelina, etc. will be off
      • If you run the troubled coach's Cummins, it should charge both the engine and house battery banks
      • Running the troubled coach's generator will have no more curative effect than using shore power.
      • With the boost switch closed, external cables to another coach's battery bank(s) will (very slowly) charge the troubled coach's battery banks.
      • With the boost switch closed, external cables to a toad's battery will (even more slowly) charge the troubled coach's battery banks.
          '98's started the generator using the house battery bank (or both house and engine banks, if boost switch is closed).  I assume the 99's are the same.
    If the coach still has gel cells (or replacement AGM's), it's very important to get them charged back up above 12.2Vdc, and not let them sit for very long in a discharged and (ongoing) discharging condition.
    Call me if you need help.
    six oh three 770-745 nine
    Neal

    Re: Urgent Battery Question

    Reply #13 –
    Battery charger on the batteries is a better alternative than running the big Cummins and having the alternator charge the batteries.
    If the batteries are real low- could possibly damage the alternator.  Walmart auto section might have a charger available at this late hour if you need to go buy one.

    Best of luck

    Re: Urgent Battery Question

    Reply #14 –
    This will be a quick and VERY inadequate thanks for all the guidance, but I wanted to at least say "Thank you" right away.  We awakened this morning to the sound of the couple firing up their generator. Going to phone them now and see how the night was. Will update everyone in when we know more.

    Most of all, know we are hugely grateful to each of you who took time to help last night.  You are a gift of grace to us and to the couple having difficulties.  Thank you!

    Re: Urgent Battery Question

    Reply #15 –
    Thank You, Richard, for helping your neighbors out and caring about their welfare.  The best part of the Forum is the willingness of our community to step forward and lend a hand, an idea, some encouragement, a pat on the back, what ever it takes for a friend. You are shining the Forum's best light today.

    Re: Urgent Battery Question

    Reply #16 –
    The '99's use house batteries to start the generator.  Since they successfully started it, the house batteries should be able to be charged even if the Freedom 2500 is defective.  Everything Neal said is correct except there is no enable switch on the invertor.  If the charger button on the Link 2000 remote panel has not inadvertently been turned off, the invertor has probably failed and the separate charger is the best temporary solution. The invertor is mounted on the ceiling of the big bay on the driver's side.  You can remove the access panel on the front of the invertor and make sure the wire nuts have not been fried.

    Re: Urgent Battery Question

    Reply #17 –
    It sounds (from Miz Dani's input) like starting or moving the coach is not a high priority.  If they (you) decide to use the external battery charger, hook it up to the house batteries.  After they are fully charged, use the Boost switch to top off the engine start batteries.  In freezing conditions, it is best to keep all the batteries fully charged, even if starting the "Big" engine is not anticipated.

    I second Neal's recommendation for a 50 amp charger - will do the job a lot quicker for not much more money.

    Re: Urgent Battery Question

    Reply #18 –
    Assuming they do not want to fix/replace the inverter/charger (if diagnosed as non functional) I STRONGLY recommend only a smart charger, 40 amp minimum. Doesn't sound like they are very tech savvy, so a "non-smart" charger will probably destroy over a thousand dollars worth of batteries (as will letting them discharge to 11 VDC!).

    But,  first step is to properly diagnose the problem, not just start finding patches.

    Re: Urgent Battery Question

    Reply #19 –
    As others have said, if I was faced with this problem and needed to get by the first thing I would do is head to walmart and get something like this Schumacher Electric 100-Amp Engine Start Battery Charger - Walmart.com

    Plug it in, stick it on the batteries to charge them up and then it should automatically maintain them as well just like any converter.  Then fix the inverter/charger when finances allow.