Solar Installation Project

Topic: Solar Installation Project (Read 1987 times) previous topic - next topic

Solar Installation Project

March 17, 2016, 01:54:44 pm

PART 1

Called AM Solar on Feb 12, 2016 to find what it would cost and how long it would take to install 1200 watts of solar. Their estimate was about $6500 for the parts and about 30-40 hours of labor at $120/hr. So, about $10,000-$11,000 total. With the tax incentive, would end up about $7500 installed or $4500 for just the parts. Factoring in the minimum 26 hour round trip just to drive up there for them to install it, it was decided to just order the parts and install it at home.

Having already installed the Tri-Metric, I knew the routing of the remote panel wires. And the solar panel cables would easily go down along the other side of the fridge, so it should be a cinch! And even though I have heard nothing but good things about AM Solar, I just cringe thinking about someone else drilling holes in the FT. I know they get customer pre-approval on the solar panel placement and a high level approach of the installation before any work commences, but how would they flesh out how to run the wires on the roof? How would they decide how to route the solar panel cables to the batteries? Would they just string them along the top of the bay, drilling in new holders, or would they remove old zip ties and keep them in the same bundle? Or would they know how the wire chase can be accessed? How would they configure the solar controllers, the on/off switches, and the circuit breakers? Would they just drill them directly into the fuel tank bay wall? Would they apply Dicor carefully so it's not just globbed on and strung across the roof from one place to the next? How would they decide to install the remote monitor panels inside the coach? I knew I couldn't hover over them with all these important decisions. Plus, adding to the mix was the installation of a SeeLevel system, which also needed wires pulled for those remote panels to the wet bay and to the cabinet above the oven in the kitchen with the rest of the remote panels. So self-installation was the best option.

Parts were ordered that same day. They were extremely nice and said that they are available anytime during the installation for support.

The whole set of parts arrived three days later and the fun began. Not a single part was missing, and everything sent was exactly as promised. These guys are organized, everything is cleanly labeled and in individual zip lock bags. Just about the only fault was the placement of of some of the pre-adhered zip tie holders under a few of the solar panels. Some of them didn't quite catch the heat shrunk section of wire as nicely as it could have, needed to move a half-inch left or right. So, it might be better if those were just left off. But all in all, this is so minor, it's barely worth mentioning.

First step was to fabricate an aluminum panel for the Blue Sky solar charge controllers, the on/off switches, the circuit breakers, and the cables from the solar panels to mount in the battery bay.

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #1 – March 17, 2016, 02:02:50 pm

Part 2

Next was to get the wire run for the Blue Sky and See Level remote panels that will sit up by the rest of the remote panels above the oven. This wire run is on the forward side of the fridge, closest to the stove/oven. After running the Tri-Metric a couple of years ago, we left a string to be able to pull any future wires. But, it didn't take long to realize the string was not helpful, the wire was getting hung up on something. Fortunately, the Trimetric had enough wire to pull it back through and feed the new Blue Sky and SeeLevel remote panel wires. Whew, that saved hours of time. And finally found a new Xantrex Prosine ACS panel. That is working awesome because I was finally able to get the charger configured to automatically come on when shorepower is plugged in.

The solar panel cables were run through the fridge flange, down the rear side of the fridge compartment, closest to the closet, down behind the cabinets under the fridge, and into the joey bed compartment. Then they met up with the Tri-Metric and Blue Sky wires and were all routed through the center wire chase, and into the battery compartment. Even with 4-gauge wire, it wasn't too difficult. And all the cables and wires even fit through the existing wire/cable holes in the battery compartment. No new drilling required in there.

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #2 – March 17, 2016, 02:11:29 pm

Part 3

Meanwhile, installing the SeeLevel system is an easy but tedious project. First, figuring out where to attach the freshwater tank strips was a major hurdle. The wet bay side has an inverted slope, and you can't place the strips on a sloping tank. The manifold/water heater side of the freshwater tank has a large step, giving you the option to place the strip on the upper end, giving the ability to "see" when the tank is full, or on the lower side, which is only about four inches of useable height, giving the ability to "see" when the tank gets empty. Plus, you have to remove the water heater to place the strips there. Decisions, decisions. Finally decided to mount it to the upper portion of the tank behind the water heater. Unfortunately, this will leave a large amount of water left when the gauge will read zero percent. But it will be more important not to overfill the tank, so in the interest of the bulkheads, it will be good to know when to shut off the water fill so water won't splash down on them. The one good thing is the audit system is pretty accurate at the lower end of the tank. But, when filling it up, I need to leave the water on for an additional ten minutes after the Audit system indicates it is full. So since the Audit system is still in place, I can always just check that to find the approximate level of the diminishing water in the freshwater tank.

Along with the See Level project, built in a Lexan window on the wet bay side of the freshwater tank to be able to actually visualize the level of the tank. So it will be really easy to see when this tank is full when you are outside. Also decided to connect the chassis batteries to the SeeLevel system, which will allow easy monitoring when the coach is parked. The Tri-Metric, Blue Sky, and Xantrex Inverter all monitor the coach batteries, so it will be nice to have easy access to the chassis battery voltage. The wire for that was run down the center wire chase, and then along a loom that routed to the chassis battery compartment.

But wouldn't you know, after temporarily taping on the sensor strips to the black and gray tanks, the black is fine, and reads zero percent, but the gray tank reads "Err." What now?? A consultation of the instruction manual points to either bad wiring, or a bad sensor. Oh jeeze. The wiring on both is identical. So it must be a bad sensor strip. A call to Garnet, along with photos to show the wiring yields the answer, a bad sensor strip. Here is Garnet's email response, "That wiring is beautiful, your wiring is definitely not the problem! I will get a new sensor sent out to you today. I will be using a picture of your wiring for our training, instead of mine!" Guess they liked the wiring.

The new strip arrived in a few days, and all was well. The new strip was good, and that system is up and running.

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #3 – March 17, 2016, 02:20:44 pm

Part 4

Back to the solar project. With all the wiring pulled, it's time to place the solar panels on the roof. Measuring and marking out the placement of the twelve GS100 solar panels was painstaking. You still need a good pathway, while trying to minimize potential shading. And it's nice to have the rows of solar panels to be in the same plane, purely for aesthetics. Also didn't want to be able to see them from the passenger side. So after quite a bit of discussion and getting careful measurements off of each existing rooftop item, ensuring everything is symmetrical, it was time to start the process of sticking down the brackets. So it hasn't rained on a weekend in probably two years in Southern California. But wouldn't you know, the day for applying Dicor to the brackets, it is forecasted to rain lightly for an hour or so. Reading up on the Dicor, it states it forms a skin in one hour, and is waterproof in four hours. Okay, there's time to start Dicoring the brackets. The first raindrop falls, and every bracket that has less than an hour of Dicor on it gets covered. The rest have been done for at least an hour, those also get covered. A few are at the four hour mark, those are left uncovered. After lunch the rain has stopped, and the sun is shining. Time to get back to work. I see rain drops sitting on some of the beautifully applied four-hour old Dicor and I don't think anything of it. But I begin to notice that every rain drop is causing a depression in the brand newly applied Dicor. Oh no, this is not good. I begin blowing the rain off each one, and they all have a golf ball skin. Out comes the heat gun, and gentle pressure to coax the Dicor back to a flat surface. Otherwise, dirt will just collect in all those depressions. This process takes no less than three hours. And after a trip to OSH to get painter's plastic to cover up the whole roof for the rain forecasted the next day, this set-back added at least six hours to this installation. Dicor does not form a skin in one hour, and it is not waterproof in four hours. Even today, almost two weeks later, it is soft, and anything that touches it leaves a permanent impression. But now I would consider it waterproof, as rain does not leave drop impressions any longer.

On March 12, one month to the day the parts were ordered, it was time to do the final wiring up top and button up all the cabinets and panels that were torn apart for this and the SeeLevel project. After some brainpower work, it was time to decide on placement of the combiner boxes and start the artistic part of the project. This system is run in parallel, so each solar panel's wire is run separately and parallel to each other to its combiner box, six panels to each box. So essentially two separate systems controlled by two separate Blue Sky charge controllers. The final wires were cut to length, and added to the bus bars in the combiner boxes. These are located under the closest solar panel to the solar cables running to the fridge. Along with all the brand new and freshly painted air conditioner and fridge vent covers, the roof looks mighty nice. The sun was just setting so "go live" will need to wait until the next day. Climbing down off that ladder for hopefully the last time for this project was exciting. It is so dangerous doing a project like this. I really wish I could have just used AM Solar's shop, along with the harness system.

After unplugging the shore power on March 13, it was time to turn on the red mini On/Off switches in the battery compartment and start receiving all this "free power." After the turn of each switch, the Blue Sky controller did its thing, blinking, etc. Next it was time to go up and see what the remote panel says. Yep, looks good, using about two amps and it was receiving two amps. Then I set up the satellite system and turned on the TV, and still, the controller continuously charged the batteries at the rate it was being used. The only way I could get the batteries to go to 99 percent (as shown on the trusty Tri-Metric) was by using the vacuum. That caused the solar panels to pump over 20 amps in, and it was back to 100 percent in less than a minute.

Part of the decision to add the 1200 watts of solar panels, was to avoid drilling holes in the roof for a shorter cable run to the batteries, not have to worry about a little shading on the panels, not have to worry about days without much sun, and to avoid having to go up to the roof to tilt the panels. After a power audit, using TV, lights, computers, etc., it would require about 600 watts of panels. But doubling that should more than make up for the longer cable run, potential shading, and just leaving the panels flat. All told there was about a combined 60 hours spent on this project, mostly weekend days, with a couple of week days. It's hard to calculate because of the time spent concurrently on the SeeLevel system, but I'd say 60 hours on just the solar project is rather conservative. It was probably less. And the wasted time on the Dicor issue shouldn't be counted, but was added in. The SeeLevel project was probably 8-10 hours, also including the time spent troubleshooting and diagnosing the bad sensor strip.

While this project was one of the more complex projects done on this coach, it really wasn't all that difficult. Much more brainpower needed than heavy lifting. It requires not much more than a standard set of tools. The only specialty tools would be a heat gun for heat shrink connectors and nutsert kit and tap set used only for the metal backing plate which wouldn't be needed in every application. One of the most useful tools of all was the set of large "knee" pads from Amazon called "BalanceFrom Puzzle Exercise Mat High Quality EVA Foam Interlocking Tiles." These pads worked great for everything from laying them across the batteries while working in that cabinet, laying them across the joey bed while pulling wires across the wire chase, to laying them on the roof or on the ground outside the basement bays as knee pads. Such a great item to have on hand for all sorts of projects, way more useful than those standard little knee pads.

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #4 – March 17, 2016, 02:32:32 pm

Great report, and a SUPER clean looking PRO-level installation! I know what PRO looks like - we paid AM Solar to do ours (we are VERY happy).

Congratulations on a job well done!

PS: You will really enjoy your Solar tax credit next year. We paid ZERO tax this year (for 2015), and carried half the credit over to 2016.

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #5 – March 17, 2016, 02:37:11 pm

Jennifer, good job and you will enjoy having your own power, we love not having to worry about RV parks and hooking up to cook or just enjoy life. AM Solar are a class outfit as a few on Forum know and their installs are well thought out and they really do plan where to drill and place things. They are VERY carefull in what they do. I have added more panels to the ones they put up on the original install and also changed the wiring to #2 and #4 for very little voltage loss. I tilt my panels if parked for a length of time but I see you will not be able to do that with many of them as they are so close and I think will cast shadows on each other.? Tilting them is very easy and pays off in faster charging.
JohnH

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #6 – March 17, 2016, 02:59:07 pm

Very nice you sure will enjoy your hard work

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #7 – March 17, 2016, 04:14:27 pm

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – March 17, 2016, 02:32:32 pm

Great report, and a SUPER clean looking PRO-level installation! I know what PRO looks like - we paid AM Solar to do ours (we are VERY happy).

Congratulations on a job well done!

PS: You will really enjoy your Solar tax credit next year. We paid ZERO tax this year (for 2015), and carried half the credit over to 2016.

Thanks! And thanks for your write up also, I definitely read your report numerous times.

Yes, will look forward to that credit!

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #8 – March 17, 2016, 04:27:13 pm

Quote from: John Haygarth – March 17, 2016, 02:37:11 pm

Jennifer, good job and you will enjoy having your own power, we love not having to worry about RV parks and hooking up to cook or just enjoy life. AM Solar are a class outfit as a few on Forum know and their installs are well thought out and they really do plan where to drill and place things. They are VERY carefull in what they do. I have added more panels to the ones they put up on the original install and also changed the wiring to #2 and #4 for very little voltage loss. I tilt my panels if parked for a length of time but I see you will not be able to do that with many of them as they are so close and I think will cast shadows on each other.? Tilting them is very easy and pays off in faster charging.
JohnH

Thanks, yes, looking forward to putting this to good use! If I lived closer, I would have definitely considered AM Solar for the install. I'm sure they are used to those who are very particular with their coach and would have done an excellent job.

Good idea on the 2 gauge wire to lessen the losses.

I don't plan to regularly tilt the panels, but could always tilt one row if I needed to charge the batteries more quickly.

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #9 – March 17, 2016, 04:28:14 pm

Quote from: Andy 2 – March 17, 2016, 02:59:07 pm

Very nice you sure will enjoy your hard work

Thanks! Yes, hope to enjoy them in Moab in a couple of weeks!

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #10 – March 17, 2016, 09:42:47 pm

Thank You!!

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #11 – April 19, 2016, 02:48:59 pm

Moab was a great test for this new solar installation. Got some great camp spots at Goose Island Campground, surrounded by tall canyon walls at the east and west. Site 17 is on the river and has a row of tall thin trees along the south side of the site. Pulled in forward, which allowed those trees to shade the driver side of the coach, but also shade much of the solar panels. By each morning, the batteries were usually at around 86% and charged to 100% by around noon each day. Due to the close high canyon walls across the river to the west, charging usually stopped by around 5:00.

This was with the small inverter on 24/7 powering the DirecTV box, occasional TV, and macbook. The big inverter was just turned on for the tea maker (which used the most amps, about 140,) the Nespresso machine (about 120 amps,) the toaster (about 70 amps,) and the microwave (about 65 amps.) At home, it dropped to about 96% by morning, with no inverters on and nothing plugged in.

Probably 50% of the panels were shaded at all times. When I was around the coach during mid day, it looked like they were pulling in about 30-40 amps. And it was awesome not to have to run the generator for the whole trip. I did run it to use the oven to bake some bread, but I really don't think I had to, I should have just tested it to find the battery percentage drop. But it's good to exercise it every so often anyway.

A few pics, one is of the campground rules. Next are my parents in front of the FT. Next is a pic of Goose Island Campground taken from a hike up to the top of the canyon walls to the east and across the road from the campground. You can see the FT in the lower left of the pic, and in the site across from it, in the foreground, is my Dad's jeep where some other relatives stayed. I can't believe how popular Moab has gotten even in the last few years since I was here last. It is so beautiful and the fact that hikers, mountain bikers, off roaders, kayakers, rock climbers, families, national park enthusiasts, etc., all share the love of the same place and all coexist in the same relatively small space makes this place such a treasure.

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #12 – April 19, 2016, 03:48:42 pm

Quote from: tothetrail – April 19, 2016, 02:48:59 pm

Got some great camp spots at Goose Island Campground, surrounded by tall canyon walls at the east and west. Site 17 is on the river and has a row of tall thin trees along the south side of the site. It is so beautiful and the fact that hikers, mountain bikers, off roaders, kayakers, rock climbers, families, national park enthusiasts, etc., all share the love of the same place and all coexist in the same relatively small space makes this place such a treasure.

Thanks for the pics, we've stayed there many times! BTW, don't tell anyone about it.

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #13 – April 19, 2016, 03:49:07 pm

Nice job and great write-up! We like to stay at Owl Canyon north of Barstow, CA. Looks much the same except that we are usually the only people there and have never seen a ranger. We wait to pay until we leave then know how much to make the check for and drop it in the box. They have a large pit toilet with a 3 inch cleanout so we dump there just before leaving.

On the wiring, in '83 I was doing designing for a company that blended plastic pellets for extrusion. I was using AutoCAD and had a different layer and color for each wire run. We had a couple of older guys in St. Louis do the wiring from our prints and they used the same colors of wire as the layer colors on the prints. It was beautiful. Again, thanks for the write-up and welcome to the world of "free" power.

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #14 – April 19, 2016, 04:30:28 pm

Just to let you know, AM Solar installed 2 panels and a controller on my motorhome. They tie wrapped hot and ground 12 gauge wires together and to plastic air leveling hoses. Needless to say, there was a short and every where they were tied to the hoses, the hoses melted. I was under the motorhome for 4 days trying to find air leaks.

I would not recommend AM Solar. Incidentally, several members had 5 hundred watts and controller installed by Sun Works in Southern California. A very professional job, best material used and every connection was bused and a heavy 40 amp fuse installed near the batteries. $1200 total. And Mike Short got 750 watts for $1700.

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #15 – April 19, 2016, 04:58:14 pm

Twig, hopefully you got in touch with AM Solar and told them about the problem. The job does not sound like one of their usual ones as you are the first person (that I know of) out of many that have had a bad install. I have been there 4 times (last 3 to just get more panels) and have to say that when talking to repeat clients they all say the same comment on how good a job was done.
I redid mine but just to jump up a few grades on wiring when adding more panels and did not see one thing that I did not like.
Greg(at the time) I am sure would have done something about it, and been very upset at what happened.
JohnH

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #16 – April 19, 2016, 04:58:35 pm

Nice installation! Home Depot had those panels on sale last week, ordered 10 of them. My plan was to use 250W panels buttttt, you can't miss if something is on SALE ! Can you ?

Where did you get your combiner boxes ?

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #17 – April 19, 2016, 05:01:22 pm

Dave, get the electrical (grey) boxes from HD and use them as combiners. I put an 6" x 6" x 6" up on roof and drilled for the weathertight couplers that they also sell. It works great and lots of room for wiring. I even got 2 bus bars from HD to use for connections.
JohnH

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #18 – April 19, 2016, 06:35:46 pm

Thanks John, exactly what I did on the Lazy Daze.

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #19 – April 19, 2016, 09:49:35 pm

Quote from: tothetrail – April 19, 2016, 02:48:59 pm

I can't believe how popular Moab has gotten even in the last few years since I was here last. It is so beautiful and the fact that hikers, mountain bikers, off roaders, kayakers, rock climbers, families, national park enthusiasts, etc., all share the love of the same place and all coexist in the same relatively small space makes this place such a treasure.

First rule of Moab is don't talk about Moab!

Those campgrounds on the river fill up fast. Off season is the best way to get one. Another great campground is Horse Thief Campground on the road to Island in the Sky. IIRC it's $12 and $6 with senior pass. Have also stayed at Spanish Trail south of town.

see ya
ken

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #20 – April 19, 2016, 11:32:04 pm

Nice report. Just a few years ago someone with 400 watts of solar had a big installation. Now the minimum is 1,000 watts and that seems to be up to the job for most of us. I'm still just under 700 but my plan is to take up one panel and install two more 250-watt panels. I'll leave one Unisolar 60 watt panel for the start batteries with its own controller.

We did our array wiring in series so there was really no need for a combiner box. Daisy chain the wiring right down to the breaker box (everything is Midnite Solar). Just plug positive to negative from panel to panel and then down the hatch.

We also did the 3M VHB tape mounts and the panels have not budged since the installation.

Unfortunately our tax credit was not very much because the installation cost so little. Under $2k. We expect to pony up another $600 to complete the KW of solar on the RV.

Pierce (remember him?) told me once that he got 4-amps out of his 1200 watts of solar while parked under the lights at a Walmart parking lot!!!

The idea is to have enough solar that your batteries are always fully charged by noon the following day. If it's cloudy then it takes longer but if you have enough solar up there this is not an issue. We do run the generator if we need to; perhaps that will change once the system is 1kw.

Solar works and frees you from the tyranny of RV parks. Actually, last year we were at SKP Park Sierra and while we did plug into shore power, all the 12vdc systems - including the HDTV and satellite - ran off solar and inverters because they were set up that way and it was too much trouble to plug them into AC. So when we left they probably wondered why our power use was so low.

Regards,
Craig

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #21 – April 19, 2016, 11:49:04 pm

Craig, the only problem with a series hook up is if there is any shading on part of the array then the amps drop off considerably as the whole string is affected. I believe the best is to have some of each. Mine are individually wired thru combiner and of course wires are heavier.
JohnH

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #22 – April 20, 2016, 07:42:56 am

OK, when is someone going to ask about the idea of getting a larger coach, i.e. 36 to 40 to 45 foot to be able to add more solar? People are becoming "solar snobs!"

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #23 – April 20, 2016, 03:08:03 pm

Quote from: John Haygarth – April 19, 2016, 11:49:04 pm

Craig, the only problem with a series hook up is if there is any shading on part of the array then the amps drop off considerably as the whole string is affected. I believe the best is to have some of each. Mine are individually wired thru combiner and of course wires are heavier.
JohnH

Actually, we have not found the "shading" issue to be relevant. We've never actually seen it in real life. We've purposely shaded a part of a panel and no differences in the voltage or current.

Not sure if they are wiring the panels differently now... the 24vdc series systems are usually what they install in houses and it's certainly possible to set the panels up so that the old "one rope on one cell ruins the panel" is not an issue.

Blocking and By-Pass Diodes Used in Solar Panels

So for whatever reason, that is not what is happening with ours.

But we seldom have an issue with shading anyway. We have found that the elevated rooftop installation system (where the panels sit on standoffs) actually shade the roof of the RV well enough so we just park in full sun. The panels might get shaded a bit in low-angle sun (early morning and late afternoon) but the rest of the time they do pretty darn well.

Craig

Re: Solar Installation Project

Reply #24 – April 26, 2016, 10:28:33 am

Quote from: mike leary – April 19, 2016, 03:48:42 pm

Thanks for the pics, we've stayed there many times! BTW, don't tell anyone about it.

Only Foretravelers! If there actually comes a time when I'm unable to get a spot because a fellow Foretraveler has it, I'll be happy for them. Plus, the spots are so big, that we can probably both fit in some of them.

Quote from: kenhat – April 19, 2016, 09:49:35 pm

First rule of Moab is don't talk about Moab!

Those campgrounds on the river fill up fast. Off season is the best way to get one. Another great campground is Horse Thief Campground on the road to Island in the Sky. IIRC it's $12 and $6 with senior pass. Have also stayed at Spanish Trail south of town.

Yes, it was quite the process to get that spot, but well worth it. Will have to check out Horse Thief also.

Quote from: lgshoup – April 19, 2016, 03:49:07 pm

Nice job and great write-up! We like to stay at Owl Canyon north of Barstow, CA.......Again, thanks for the write-up and welcome to the world of "free" power.

Thanks, will look into Owl Canyon. And you're welcome, I am loving this free power!

Quote from: toyman – April 19, 2016, 04:58:35 pm

Where did you get your combiner boxes ?

I got those at AM Solar.

Quote from: wa_desert_rat – April 19, 2016, 11:32:04 pm

Nice report. Just a few years ago someone with 400 watts of solar had a big installation. Now the minimum is 1,000 watts and that seems to be up to the job for most of us. I'm still just under 700 but my plan is to take up one panel and install two more 250-watt panels. I'll leave one Unisolar 60 watt panel for the start batteries with its own controller.

Thanks, yes, it does seem like more is the norm now, especially with the tax credits. With the big "discount" it's hard to pass up the opportunity to just do it all at once rather than adding on later.

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