Steering dead spot

Topic: Steering dead spot (Read 1124 times) previous topic - next topic

Steering dead spot

May 15, 2016, 09:25:50 pm

Don't know, that is why I asked. Not familiar with Active Air and IFS. Drove a 2011 with IFS and was impressed with Ride, Stability and ease of driving compared to my 40' U-320. Made me realize I have a 3/4' dead spot in steering wheel I need to fix next trip to NAC

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #1 – May 15, 2016, 09:30:38 pm

Hey Tim, I hope you mean 3/4 inch dead spot.

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #2 – May 15, 2016, 09:31:51 pm

YUP, getting late. Low blood sugar...

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #3 – May 15, 2016, 09:51:36 pm

Tim,

If the play is in the Sheppard M100 steering box, might have these guys blueprint it to remove play:

http://www.steeringgears.net/

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #4 – May 15, 2016, 10:25:34 pm

Brett.

Bernd and team in NAC are the last folks to work on the steering, Bernd said steering box OK.

Keith Risch drove the coach in NAC two weeks ago and thought the toe setting was not correct. Had to leave before I could get it looked at.

Dave Head and Gary O have a Sheepard core floating around. Both Dave Head and I are going to use it to use it to replace our units sequentially. Even if it is not obvious, at 120,000 miles it is time, and it can't do anything but help.

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #5 – May 15, 2016, 10:26:04 pm

should have mentioned replace with Redhead rebuilds using the core

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #6 – May 16, 2016, 07:45:37 am

Tim,

Yes, a good idea. I know Robert Henderson bought a brand new Sheppard M100 and sent it to Redhead for blue-printing. That way he has one ready to go for his shop.

Also recommended by Dick Lorentson at Precision Alignment up your way: RV suspension and tires are our specialty

Work with both these guys when I do the Suspensions Seminar at FMCA Conventions.

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #7 – May 16, 2016, 09:56:42 am

Not sure what a dead spot is but just installed a Sheppard in our coach. Turning left it meets resistance and needs additional pressure before rotating the rest of the angle. I thought this may have been air in system but it has continued and is in the same degree of arc each time. Is this a dead spot?

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #8 – May 16, 2016, 10:09:03 am

Up my way a good thing! Thanks for the heads up, will check them out

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #9 – May 16, 2016, 10:12:46 am

This Lucas works wonders on tight spots.
Power Steering Stop Leak

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #10 – May 16, 2016, 10:15:35 am

For me, I meant the term to mean that I can move the steering wheel 3/4 of an inch back and forth without effecting steering input or direction changes to the front tires. So driving down the road entails a constant "sawing" back and forth to make lane corrections.
Driving that 2011 two weeks ago made me realize that although had brought the dead spot down from 1 1/2" to 3/4", it needs (and will) to be fixed Keith R. At MOT drove it and thinks the toe is set wrong, going to get it looked at soon and will report

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #11 – May 16, 2016, 10:42:22 am

Quote from: Tim Fiedler – May 16, 2016, 10:15:35 am

For me, I meant the term to mean that I can move the steering wheel 3/4 of an inch back and forth without effecting steering input or direction changes to the front tires. So driving down the road entails a constant "sawing" back and forth to make lane corrections.

That's the same definition I've always heard for the "dead spot" term. It can become annoying and somewhat exhausting when on a trip of any significant length.

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #12 – May 16, 2016, 11:42:21 am

Quote from: George and Steph – May 16, 2016, 09:56:42 am

Not sure what a dead spot is but just installed a Sheppard in our coach. Turning left it meets resistance and needs additional pressure before rotating the rest of the angle. I thought this may have been air in system but it has continued and is in the same degree of arc each time. Is this a dead spot?

This is not normal and not a "dead spot". A dead spot is play with the wheel on the on-center.

First thing I would do is lube the kingpins and steering components. Only after those have proven free would I re-look at the steering gear.

Did this symptom just start with you changed the Sheppard box? Was it a new, reman, other? If reman, who built it?

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #13 – May 16, 2016, 11:43:00 am

Have the tie rod ends and drag link checked also, as these can cause the same symptom. Cheaper than steering box .

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #14 – May 16, 2016, 12:10:40 pm

Agree. Those were checked and drag links replaced by Bernd a year ago "Play" in wheel needs to be diagnosed before I throw parts at it

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #15 – May 16, 2016, 12:22:47 pm

Tim,

Pretty easy to diagnose from under the coach (by steering gear in front of left front wheel).

With engine running, carefully use your hand to turn the input shaft (comes down from steering column) left/right/left. See how much arc you can swing before the output shaft/pitman arm begin to move.

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #16 – May 16, 2016, 12:45:45 pm

The current legally defensible wheel bearing adjustment details a .001 to .005 dial indicated play in the hub after adjustment.

Mine was set this way and had a "dead" spot in it.

My 20 year Foretravel dealer chassis mechanic laughed when I mentioned the "dead" spot.

While he changed the front seals and put synthetic oil in the hubs he used his long experience fixing this issue and lightly preloaded the bearings.

We had already checked every front end piece prior to this.

"Dead" spot went away.

This is a non legally defensible not quantifiable adjustment as far as I know.

Watched a installation video from a seal maker and the demonstrator mentioned the measureable legality several times as its a DOT thing.

You could read the guys face as he mentioned this.

If you verify every parts correct then the last part is the bearings adjustment itself.

Any preload would seem to need synthetic hub oil to lessen any isues in my mind.

No recommending anyone do anything contrary to the DOT current system for the line haul guys but.......

Everything tight and new xza-3+ the coach brings a grin to your face driving it that's hard to wipe off.

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #17 – May 16, 2016, 09:51:47 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – May 16, 2016, 11:42:21 am

This is not normal and not a "dead spot". A dead spot is play with the wheel on the on-center.

First thing I would do is lube the kingpins and steering components. Only after those have proven free would I re-look at the steering gear.

Did this symptom just start with you changed the Sheppard box? Was it a new, reman, other? If reman, who built it?

It started with the second box. The box was a reman from Sheppard right out of the box. The second one on the coach in 5,000 miles. The first was rebuilt in early March in CA and was leaking by the time I got to Bernds for shocks. We checked the stops as you recommended and they were set correctly in both instances. No metal to metal. The best way to describe this is ...if I were driving a car and didn't have enough forward movement to assist in the turn and got that feedback in the power steering that is kind of like a shaking. It feels like back pressure until I turn through it. Then I get at least 270 turn more.

I will lube tomorrow. Both failures were at the Pitman.

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #18 – May 17, 2016, 08:16:13 am

Quote from: Tim Fiedler – May 15, 2016, 10:25:34 pm

Dave Head and Gary O have a Sheepard core floating around. Both Dave Head and I are going to use it to use it to replace our units sequentially. Even if it is not obvious, at 120,000 miles it is time, and it can't do anything but help.

I looked at the Haldex site and there was a list by "stamped number" of reman M100 boxes.
156 different numbers!!
The top one 'RG100APHEX' is described as 'M100 auto', the rest as just M100.
Also, there are 2 listed in stock for the RG100APHEX but none for the rest.
They appear to be actually different part numbers.

Are they actually different?
Do you have to go located the 'stamped number' and then try to find?

I'm sure i'm missing something simple.

?

*********addition****

Yes they are different...
See http://www.rhsheppard.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/mseriesmanual.pdf
The portion after the 'xx100P' identifies a model number and a revision number.

Do we (or at least 'I' ) care?

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #19 – May 17, 2016, 08:43:04 am

Will try and find it but when I was reading various posts about steering box rebuilds there was a shop in CA that was also pretty good also.The consensus seemed to be if any way possible get your existing box rebuilt,it may take longer but much less
hassle.Will look on my coach but is this the same oil as the hyd.pump system?

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #20 – May 17, 2016, 08:47:20 am

It is the same. I had ours rebuilt in CA after first failure. Steering remained the same as before just no leak. Second failure in Nac at Bernds we replaced with unit from FOT which was a Sheppard rebuild.

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #21 – May 17, 2016, 10:25:37 am

After reading these posts, I would like to add some facts and comments. I've had many years over the road in many trucks. Our present coach was bought in 2005 with 31 K. It had a small amount of play in the steering and a little, what I felt, was a built in resistance (drag ) to any course correction. To me it was annoying but live able. Over the years , and two different calls to Sheppard, I was told "that's the way they are made and no adjustments are available". When Sandy & I got married, she would not drive the coach. She said " I'm not going to sit there and "saw" that steering wheel back and forth just to keep it in the lane." I realized after 11 years and 145 K , that I was unaware of how bad it had gotten. Earlier this spring, I acquired,from another FT owner, a leaking take out box that he wanted to sell after he had replaced his box with a used one. I had him ship it to Red Head in Wa. They did a rebuild and sent it to me in Fl. After install, I had Joe Sams truck alignment and repair,in Orlando Fl. do a three axle alignment. The only adjustment needed was a little more caster. That should have created more drag to over come in course changes. It did not!
We now have a high mileage 2000 42' 320 that drives is nice as our Chevy Traverse. I now have a good "feel" of the road, (NO BUILT IN DRAG), and after looking off into to the fields and trees, the coach is right where it should be when my eyes come back to the road. The trip from Fl. to the "barn" in Tn. was the best in years.
I sold my old box to another owner who did the Red Head thing and I believe he sold his take out to another owner (either Tim or Dave), that is getting ready to do the same. So there is a floating core out there some where.

If you have a coach that turns harder in one direction than the other, you have a mechanical problem that needs attention. Grease probably will not fix it.

Gary O

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #22 – May 17, 2016, 10:33:34 am

Dave has the core at present, and we are in the process of getting our coaches up to snuff over the next two months (sequentially) with that core. I assume that we will be happy to move the core to the next user when it is available. As of now, the plan is for Dave to do his coach, and then I will do mine, but that might change subject to ur schedules.

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #23 – May 17, 2016, 12:25:43 pm

With the mileage mentioned, I find it hard to believe the steering box is the issue.. pc

Re: Steering dead spot

Reply #24 – May 17, 2016, 12:54:16 pm

Quote from: pocketchange – May 17, 2016, 12:25:43 pm

With the mileage mentioned, I find it hard to believe the steering box is the issue.. pc

I am putting two and two together and maybe getting five but the high cooling fan speeds that the 186 degree fan controller runs at constantly in use heats up the oil in the system according to my cummins dealer shop foreman.

Hotter oil would seem to affect the seals more over the years than cooler oils.

The c15 cat and many Monaco products run a 199 degree thermostat for their hydraulic fan controllers.

Less fan on high= lower oil temps?

The devil is in the details. Everything is related.

The box failures and fan resealing may or may not be related to the fan controllers temp setting.

FOT may have put a lower temp controller to kick the fan to high almost always to have less dash temp gauge movement and less customer calls about heating issues.

Or to allow a smaller radiator. Less expensive? Mike grimes mentions the refit radiator is a heavier duty one for my 97 when I asked him.

Maybe why the GCWR only allows a 6k tow on the early unicoaches?

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