IH45 for 2017 Model changes

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IH45 for 2017 Model changes

May 26, 2016, 08:55:25 pm

I read this Motorcade issue letter by Mr Reed to say the new IH will use the Spartan chassis and not have a retarder but use an engine brake with a joy stick. There are other changes, maybe more basic? He also writes of some other product announcements later this year.

His letter is nicely done and while making these changes at Foretravel, these new coaches he sees as giving important improvements. Sounds very interesting. Would like to test drive one just to experience the improvements.

Re: IH45 for 2017 Model changes

Reply #1 – May 26, 2016, 09:04:56 pm

I had a telephone conversation with Mr Reed two weeks ago and in between our topic of discussion he mentioned that the ISX engine had reached the point that its engine brake was actually more powerful and efficient than a retarder. I did not give it much thought but in hindsight he must have had this in mind. Sounds actually very cool with a joy stick instead of buttons A B or C as other coach company's have them.

Re: IH45 for 2017 Model changes

Reply #2 – May 26, 2016, 09:32:18 pm

Quote from: Michael & Jackie – May 26, 2016, 08:55:25 pm

I read this Motorcade issue letter by Mr Reed to say the new IH will use the Spartan chassis and not have a retarder but use an engine brake with a joy stick.

Must be a mid-model-year change (or maybe he was talking about 2018)? The 2017s on their sales site have a Foretravel chassis and transmission retarder

Foretravel Texas
Foretravel Texas

It makes me wonder how they will differentiate this new IH-45 from the Realm if they are both on the same chassis/drivetrain? Maybe the IH will be a full-up custom on that chassis to compete with King Aire?

I will say that our first experience with an engine brake (on the Entegra Cornerstone we drove, Spartan K3 chassis, added structure by Entegra), while 3-stage so less granular than the transmission retarder, gave the same feeling or better than a retarder. I expected it to feel "lesser", but it did not at all. Having driven several K3-based coaches now, the engine brake impressed and it was nice not having to worry about the transmission temperature rise.

Re: IH45 for 2017 Model changes

Reply #3 – May 26, 2016, 10:31:37 pm

Calls it a new look of our 2017 Anniversary model and proprietary travelride III chassis built to FT specs testing underway

Noted too new diesel 2017 emission regs per chassis regs for motorhomes where will no longer be exempt from phase I rules.

Noted widely available Spartan chassis service centers become available to owners of these

Re: IH45 for 2017 Model changes

Reply #4 – May 26, 2016, 10:49:11 pm

I read this as well. Mr Reed says "When they go into production later this year, stop by and test drive one..."

What really caught my eye and is similar to what was discussed at the Indiana GrandVention was "We continue to discuss and plan for additional product offerings that we expect to announce in the next Motorcader issue."

This could be interesting. Read it for yourself. Page 3.

http://foretravel.com/documents/MCM_Spring2016.pdf

Re: IH45 for 2017 Model changes

Reply #5 – May 27, 2016, 12:43:12 pm

From reading the EPA and NHTSA documents, I would expect OTR diesel engines are going to experience some redesign for 2018 and beyond to meet the greenhouse gas emissions and fuel economy rules.

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/climate/documents/420f11031.pdf

This likely forces a new cooling package design, much as the 2007 and 2011 engine changes did. It takes a lot of engineering and expense to redesign, test, and certify a chassis when such things change, and trying to recoup the cost over 25 or so coaches per year would put the price of the coach outside a reasonable range (particularly having to employ a significant engineering staff to tackle the job). Letting a high-volume chassis manufacturer like Spartan do the design, development, and testing, since they can amortize the costs across many thousands of units, is really the only way for low-volume coach manufacturers to keep costs and prices at a business-sustainable level.

From the above document:

Quote

You can access the final joint rules and related documents on EPA's Office of Transportation and Air Quality (OTAQ) Web site at:

Regulations & Standards | Transportation and Climate | US EPA

You can access the final joint rules and related documents, including the Environmental Impact Statement, on NHTSA's Fuel Economy Web site at:

Fuel Economy | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)

Re: IH45 for 2017 Model changes

Reply #6 – May 27, 2016, 01:12:45 pm

Quote from: Michelle – May 27, 2016, 12:43:12 pm

This likely forces a new cooling package design, much as the 2007 and 2011 engine changes did. It takes a lot of engineering and expense to redesign, test, and certify a chassis when such things change, and trying to recoup the cost over 25 or so coaches per year would put the price of the coach outside a reasonable range (particularly having to employ a significant engineering staff to tackle the job). Letting a high-volume chassis manufacturer like Spartan do the design, development, and testing, since they can amortize the costs across many thousands of units, is really the only way for low-volume coach manufacturers to keep costs and prices at a business-sustainable level.

While I fully realize that's the case, and while I also fully realize it's highly unlikely that I will ever be able to afford a new Foretravel, I'm really sorry to see them lose their own unique, built-in-house, chassis design! That's one of the major things that has attracted me to Foretravels for many years. It just seems (to me, at least) that building the entire vehicle in-house allows for a superior design and overall higher quality control.

Yes, I also fully realize I'm one of those old-school and out-of-touch geezers!

Re: IH45 for 2017 Model changes

Reply #7 – May 27, 2016, 01:35:17 pm

I really wonder how the new chassis will go. Will Spartan build a chassis that borrows more DNA from other spartan rv chassis, or will it be more foretravel dna? The foretravel chassis and storage is why I am here. Hopefully that stays in this next version!

Re: IH45 for 2017 Model changes

Reply #8 – May 27, 2016, 01:55:58 pm

Quote from: rvlooker – May 27, 2016, 01:35:17 pm

I really wonder how the new chassis will go. Will Spartan build a chassis that borrows more DNA from other spartan rv chassis, or will it be more foretravel dna? The foretravel chassis and storage is why I am here. Hopefully that stays in this next version!

Hopefully this will be more than a rebadged Realm. Could they make front and rear modules that attach to a Foretravel monocoque unit?

Re: IH45 for 2017 Model changes

Reply #9 – May 27, 2016, 02:24:35 pm

You know, when I started this topic and thread, I was and still am optimistic that this is a good move and have faith or trusts that FOT knows their business model. The subsequent responses herein seem to generally concur and cite aspects that Mr. Reed laid out

Beyond that, he reported in a verbal presentation at the Ladies Driving Class last Oct that this was coming. I reported that report on the Forum and some members said he hinted at such at the last GV

I know we wish them well and success and it leads to three cheers even if they do not offer a new 01 or 03!

Mike

Re: IH45 for 2017 Model changes

Reply #10 – May 27, 2016, 03:24:52 pm

Well I figured that would be the case sooner or later. It does make it kind of like the other coaches but it solves the engineering and should reduce the price point cost pressures.

Re: IH45 for 2017 Model changes

Reply #11 – May 27, 2016, 05:49:39 pm

Quote from: Michelle – May 27, 2016, 12:43:12 pm

Letting a high-volume chassis manufacturer like Spartan do the design, development, and testing, since they can amortize the costs across many thousands of units, is really the only way for low-volume coach manufacturers to keep costs and prices at a business-sustainable level.

Very Well Said!

Re: IH45 for 2017 Model changes

Reply #12 – May 27, 2016, 08:24:11 pm

Quote from: rvlooker – May 27, 2016, 01:35:17 pm

I really wonder how the new chassis will go. Will Spartan build a chassis that borrows more DNA from other spartan rv chassis, or will it be more foretravel dna? The foretravel chassis and storage is why I am here. Hopefully that stays in this next version!

I wouldn't worry until we actually see the chassis. Who knows if it's custom/proprietary or a version of K3/K3GT (the latter would actually be better - less proprietary means easier to find service at any Spartan service center).

Friends who had a 2007 Monaco and now a 2009 one warned us we would hate the raised rail after being used to a semi-monocoque chassis. They were wrong.

Quite honestly, the K3's we've driven were awesome. All have had some form of active air ride.

The Spartan K3/K3GT chassis has more storage since the sides of the bays aren't walled in. In fact, a common issue where a bay door won't open isn't an issue in a Spartan chassis - you can open an adjacent bay and climb on in to solve the problem. Serviceability is excellent - many items like air dryer, fuel filters, engine batteries, and governor are all in one accessible bay (unlike Freightliner, who puts the air dryer up high in the raised rails midship in front of the transmission). Air bags are only slightly more inboard than the Foretravel solid-front-axle chassis, and are much larger diameter.

Now, K3 and K3GT do have slightly less high storage bay openings than the non-Realm FTs, but barely. And height below the rails is about the same, but at least with Cornerstone, London Aire, and Essex, there is significantly more basement storage in terms of number of available bays. (We did not study the Realm basement as much since there were no floorplans that would work for us).

Re: IH45 for 2017 Model changes

Reply #13 – May 28, 2016, 08:20:20 am

Quote from: John S – May 27, 2016, 03:24:52 pm

Well I figured that would be the case sooner or later. It does make it kind of like the other coaches but it solves the engineering and should reduce the price point cost pressures.

To me--at least--that's the sad part. It's just another manufacturer building on a Spartan chassis.

Re: IH45 for 2017 Model changes

Reply #14 – May 28, 2016, 08:52:03 am

The new IH45 chassis is described by Lyle Reed in the MC Magazine. "We are well underway testing the proprietary TravelRide© III chassis and are very, very pleased with its initial performance. It is being built by Spartan to our custom specifications and will have several important improvements."

It sound like it is being built by Spartan to Foretravel's custom specs exclusively for Foretravel. Maybe not just another motorhome built on the same Spartan chassis as all the others.

Let's wait and see. It could be very nice.

Re: IH45 for 2017 Model changes

Reply #15 – May 28, 2016, 09:12:30 am

Since the thought of buying a brand new Foretravel coach is, to us, only a fantasy, I can read this thread with total detachment. However, as a life-long admirer of everything mechanical, I always enjoy reading about any kind of new tech. In that respect, the Spartan website is pure eye candy. Regardless of your thoughts on this engineering change, you have to admit that Spartan does a great job of marketing their product!

http://www.spartanchassis.com/rv/walkaround.asp

Re: IH45 for 2017 Model changes

Reply #16 – May 28, 2016, 10:25:48 am

Depending on how the new generation of the IH shakes out, it could bring the Realm and the IH closer together in both price and features. A major difference could be the Realm offers limited customization while the IH will be able to deliver tailored floor plans, a broader selection of interior materials and a longer checklist of available options. Marketing-wise, instead of Foretravel attempting to make the IH fall within the category of an entry level Newell, it could become a top of the line, more mainstream Class A contender...one that has a broader appeal and a wider potential customer base.

As a potential buyer it seems those currently considering a Realm aren't comparing this purchase to an IH and it's logical to comparison shop a Realm to coaches such as Newmar's King Aire and possibly the Entegra Cornerstone.

Just ask any car dealer these questions: Once a customer enters the doorway, do they want them to walk out the door just because a specific model that lured them inside doesn't fit their immediate needs.? Do they enjoy having the ability to demonstrate alternative models within the same brand and ones the buyer may not have originally considered? I'll guess the answer is a resounding Yes.

Because Foretravel currently only has one choice in each of its two current categories, it's logical to think the buyer could easily walk out the door and shift focus to a different manufacturer's offerings. A fresh model that's somewhat comparable to the Realm could keep a buyer shopping within Foretravel's offerings.

While I have come to respect the benefits of the current Foretravel chassis, from a new buyer's perspective, the issue of not having an abundant amount of service centers does give pause to an IH purchase. A new Spartan-based offering can relieve some of this doubt.

Depending on what Foretravel does with this new model, possibly the IH could be considered a logical step-up from the Realm and in essence, create a lineup of sorts for the next generation of Foretravel coaches. If this is the plan (and we are all speculating at this point), possibly the Realm feature list could be lessened a bit (similar to what Newmar did with its 2017 King Aire) and target a more competitive price point to further enhance the pool of potential purchasers. Once in the door, they could see the value and enhancements that could make the IH a contender for their coach buying dollar. Right now, there seems to be too much of a gap between the Realm and the IH-45 to maintain the buyer's interest.

I can only guess that since the Spartan-based Realm includes Foretravel's version of Comfort Steer as well as a passive steering axle, it's a safe bet both of these features will appear on the new IH. I can only wonder if with the modified Spartan chassis, if an active steering tag axle is in its future.

Also, considering Entegra is building its coaches on Spartan chassis and including both a true Adaptive Cruise Control as well as Blind Spot Monitoring on its 2017 Cornerstone, could these features appear on the new IH/Spartan generation? I've driven a 2017 Cornerstone with these new features and produced a video demonstrating them in action. In my opinion, are noteworthy to a buyer seeking a full-featured coach.

Over the long term, a Spartan-based IH could be a very good thing to solidify the future of Foretravel. It seems that Newmar sells more King Aire models than Foretravel sells coaches and by having two models that are more closely related and in the same family possibly more potential buyers could consider a Foretravel as a next coach. However, buyers in this category are just as price sensitive as those seeking coaches with a lower MSRP, and much of the success of a new IH model will depend on it being competitively priced in the marketplace.

Just my two cents.

Re: IH45 for 2017 Model changes

Reply #17 – May 29, 2016, 12:53:18 pm

Quote from: D.J. Osborn – May 27, 2016, 01:12:45 pm

While I fully realize that's the case, and while I also fully realize it's highly unlikely that I will ever be able to afford a new Foretravel, I'm really sorry to see them lose their own unique, built-in-house, chassis design! That's one of the major things that has attracted me to Foretravels for many years. It just seems (to me, at least) that building the entire vehicle in-house allows for a superior design and overall higher quality control.

Yes, I also fully realize I'm one of those old-school and out-of-touch geezers!

I agree DJ, sad to see them get rid of their DNA, the chassis. I wonder if they are going to a aluminum superstructure also.