Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Topic: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention (Read 2009 times) previous topic - next topic

Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

September 08, 2016, 12:32:55 am

Well, after 15 or so years, the slide bladder developed a leak. First a quick lesson....it was not a catastrophic failure as I imagined. I just noticed the pressure gauge on the aux compressor third air tank losing psi quite a bit faster than normal. So I explored more. First cut off the valve to the bladder, to see if that stopped the drop. Yes. Went on, found the leak, could even hear it if listened closely. So my thinking that a leak would just shut me down, not so. In fact as I thought about it, a leak should not stop me from bringing in the slide, locking it up and driving.....I think that right.

Anyway....the delam prevention lesson here. When in for repair, they wanted to know what size bladder I, the coach, had. Turns out a 160 inch slide.

First is a photo of the slide out.....kinda sad looking!

Then of James.....who is very good at this bladder replacement...removing the old bladder glue. Best I can tell they do several per week.

Now the key photo....James called this to my attention. On the very edge, where the pretty then fiberglass outside skin of the coach glues up to the inside wall, there is a seam, a joint two surfaces. You cannot see it here, but in a few places there was a tiny space, maybe the width of a think dime or even only a few pieces of paper, where the outside pretty wall was no longer tightly sealed to the inner wall. It should be. That small gap allows water to get behind the fiberglass and lead to delam. So the lesson, observation......IF you have the bladder repair, ask whomever does the work to inspect that seam, that joint. Seal it if needed. On the 01 you can only do that when the bladder is being replaced or such, for it is then that the slide is removed and you can see that seam. More than the bladder repair, maybe a future problem averted.

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #1 – September 08, 2016, 01:07:25 am

First pic is not so sad. Looking at it for some time I can understand Country Coach going for a patio design.

Thanks for the heads up on the seam. On another note, if one can see the leak, can it not be patched? Tom.

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #2 – September 08, 2016, 01:22:02 am

I had no way to get to the leak. I had even carried along some repair glue that one Forum member had been suggested.

What I found was that when I deflate the bladder, it is still fairly firm, still presses some on the slide in most places. I could not see the leak, do not know really where it was on the bladder (it was not on a visible surface). I had sprayed soapy water along the bladder, naturally starting down low as easiest, and found the leak five ft from the front top corner.....right along the top of the slide. Bubbles would slowly form and expand, deflating about 3 psi in seven minutes. If there had been room to get my finger between the bladder and the slide, maybe I could have found the hole, but how to put glue on it and not glue the bladder to the slide? Maybe that would have been ok, but I did not want to tear the bladder fully open.

I just quit worrying about it when I found I could drive it anyway, headed home 850 miles. I wonder if there was some rubber material i might lay on the slide, forcing it in between the side and the bladder, just hit the leak and stop it or slow it, but had nothing to try that I could think of.

I imagine others have an idea how to temporarily seal it. I was just happy to drive, keep the rain out and not make it worse.

thanks for asking

mike

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #3 – September 08, 2016, 01:43:41 am

General consensus is that patching is not reliable (search function will show a couple of home brew ideas, and scuba suit repair patch kits being tried). This is UBER low PSI, but unless you can see and patch the leak in very tight spaces, the cost of the labor to get at the bladder is high (in my 2000, it is quoted at 12 man hours) so most do not try to patch.

I have always wanted a used bladder to send to a place that repairs inflatable boats (think Achilles - small boats as yacht tenders, dingoes, etc.). Talked to one here in Seattle - he is a magician when I see what he can do on these boats.

Michael - I don't think there are any in Nacogdoches - but maybe save that bladder if they didn't destroy it on removal? I wouldn't mind sinking a few $$$ into it and experiment.

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #4 – September 08, 2016, 07:29:18 am

What does it cost to do a repair like this? Removing the side does not sound cheap.

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #5 – September 08, 2016, 09:33:52 am

Turbo, will give you cost ideas when have the bill...but We have used the removal of the slide as a good opportunity to replace the carpet. Will see if can separate any impacts of that labor

It was also a good opportunity...James Johnson showed me...to look at the slide locking pins and bushings. At first thought we needed to replace due to the shaved off rubber around the pins but James found those to be old deposits, that was left over from some prior pin work.

I think James said this is new bladder materials, better. It does require making a bit larger hole for bladder air feed, will check to confirm...just info.

Tim will see if old bladder is around but if not James does several per week...you know those guys and bet they would save you one. I could mail to you...try to ask this morning.

It takes a day to do the bladder, fyi dear readers.

Mike

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #6 – September 08, 2016, 10:07:49 am

It varies by model year and which slides - early slides are fully removed from the coach (more people, a forklift or table, more time), later slides push into the coach. Larger slides have large bladders. Figure $2500 - $3000 worse case for early model year with the large slide.

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #7 – September 08, 2016, 10:38:43 am

Hi Mike,
Looks like a big job but you are right in addressing all potential issues while in for repair.
I'm sure it will be better than new when done.
Jim

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #8 – September 08, 2016, 10:42:19 am

Quote from: Michael & Jackie – September 08, 2016, 09:33:52 am

I think James said this is new bladder materials, better. It does require making a bit larger hole for bladder air feed, will check to confirm...just info.

Mike - keep us posted on the first few inflations of the new bladder. I believe I'd mentioned in another topic - there's a gentleman on rv.net who has been through 3 attempts to get a new slide bladder in his 2007 Nimbus; all three have failed almost immediately - splitting at the seam near where the valve is located.

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #9 – September 08, 2016, 11:00:13 am

Quote from: Michelle – September 08, 2016, 10:42:19 am

Mike - keep us posted on the first few inflations of the new bladder. I believe I'd mentioned in another topic - there's a gentleman on rv.net who has been through 3 attempts to get a new slide bladder in his 2007 Nimbus; all three have failed almost immediately - splitting at the seam near where the valve is located.

This repair you are speaking about was done at a dealership that use to to be a Foretravel dealer. Simply, the dealer never been involved with Nimbus series since dealers were gone when the Nimbus came out. Apparently, there are some differences that I personally found to be. I have replaced three of the four bladders already on my Nimbus. The apparent reason for failures on these models is the alignment of the slides according to HWH. When we were at HWH, they worked on all four slides, shimming where the slide meets the mechanism so they align and not squeeze the heck out of one end of the bladder between the slide and body. Even though FOT said this alignment was within specs, HWH said otherwise. We still have one remaining old bladder and will replace that one shortly. The new bladders, one installed nicely by MOT, One by FOT and redone by HWH, and the third done by HWH all are working great since the alignment.

Bob

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #10 – September 08, 2016, 11:16:25 am

quote"The new bladders, one installed nicely by MOT, One by FOT and redone by HWH, and the third done by HWH all are working great since the alignment. "

Wow, that comment speaks volumes if you read it fully!!
JohnH

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #11 – September 08, 2016, 12:27:15 pm

Quote from: bobnkathy – September 08, 2016, 11:00:13 am

I have replaced three of the four bladders already on my Nimbus. The apparent reason for failures on these models is the alignment of the slides according to HWH. When we were at HWH, they worked on all four slides, shimming where the slide meets the mechanism so they align and not squeeze the heck out of one end of the bladder between the slide and body.

Good info, Bob. Thanks!

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #12 – September 08, 2016, 03:00:47 pm

Thanks to all for comments, input and guidance and ideas.....a like to each contributor

Michelle, good idea

Time, old bladder no good. James said thin enough some places even if could repair the original hole, not worth the effort

On the shims.....now I know to mention those to you, for you know of them. Another reader may not, so here goes. James did show me the shims too....some type of nylon material. He demonstrated to me how they are supposed to fit in two ways, one being to control the up/down motion as the slide moves in and out, the other to control the side to side motion that it comes in evenly.

I think that a good idea that I double check, watch and listen, when the slide goes in and out several times. Great idea though I feel surely MOT James will have done that. I bet they have other very good techs with the slide bladders and just aligning, I know Risch has done many, watched him. But James is the one that took time to educate me, show me how things are supposed to work and he had the lead on this work this time. I very appreciate his efforts.

Thanks again your thoughts, will remind myself of what guidance you have given as we proceed onward. Right now the flooring work continues in the BR.

mike

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #13 – September 08, 2016, 05:38:14 pm

We had MOT adjust the alignment of our our slide a year and a half ago. The difference from one end to the other was less than 1/8" but it took less than an hour to get it as close to perfect as we could.

At HWH they were careful to check clearance all the way around the bladder with a feeler gauge (a custom made plastic stick) when they were fixing our deflate soloniod valve.

At almost 16 years our slide bladder seal is still in good shape. Going on 70, sometimes mine is not. If it (the coach slide against the bladder) squeaks when going in or out then it is rubbing, not good. Clean and polish your slide. If it (the coach slide against the bladder is squeaking spray the squeaks with some soapy water as a lube.

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #14 – September 08, 2016, 11:58:00 pm

Are you still talking about your coach?

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #15 – September 09, 2016, 08:26:40 am

Yes, Dave, Still talking about slide bladders. Susan said I needed to be more specific in my wording there. 😜 Everytime the slide bladder deflates and the slide moves in or out and the bladder reinflates I am thankful. The coach will be 16 in December. I replaced the sweeping gasket last year and sometimes that causes some squeaking.

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #16 – September 09, 2016, 10:08:18 am

I said NOTHING

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #17 – September 09, 2016, 10:25:13 am

We have an appointment to replace our slide bladder & chase down as many air leaks as we can @ HWH end of this month, looking forward to the education..... not necessarily the cost....

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #18 – September 09, 2016, 11:50:40 am

You will find the HWH charges by far the lowest price for the work you are going to have performed. Understand that certain air leaks with regards to the brakes and 9HWH systems will be identified by HWH, but they will not repair them at HWH. Probably something to do with my ability, so either you or another service facility will have to address those leaks.

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #19 – September 12, 2016, 10:42:30 am

Mike,

Do you know if the manifold was replaced with the newer version? When we had our large slide seal replaced at MOT in June 2015, the manifold was not replaced. Subsequently, we discovered that the seal in our rear slide was leaking, so we took it to HWH for replacement. The technician examined our coach and told me that the manifold needed to be replaced with the newer style manifold. The explanation of the difference is that the old manifold doesn't allow evacuation of the seal if the aux compressor is not running. The new manifold works to evacuate the seal as long as there is pressure (about 40 psi, I think) in the system. They replaced both of our manifolds with the new design, about $400 each. Although in an awkward position on my coach, I could have done the replacement myself.

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #20 – May 19, 2021, 04:38:11 pm

Quote from: saddlesore – September 09, 2016, 10:25:13 am

We have an appointment to replace our slide bladder & chase down as many air leaks as we can @ HWH end of this month, looking forward to the education..... not necessarily the cost....

I am aware this is an old thread, researching best route for future slide bladder replacement and slide delamination & gelcoat/fiberglass repairs. Did HWH remove the slide from the coach & replace the bladder? One stop shop? Or was this model one that could have the bladder replaced without slide removal?

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #21 – May 19, 2021, 05:28:37 pm

Quote from: evantwheeler – May 19, 2021, 04:38:11 pm

I am aware this is an old thread, researching best route for future slide bladder replacement and slide delamination & gelcoat/fiberglass repairs. Did HWH remove the slide from the coach & replace the bladder? One stop shop? Or was this model one that could have the bladder replaced without slide removal?

Removal. Get it all addressed at the same time
Scott

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #22 – May 19, 2021, 06:14:40 pm

If done at Xtreme, MOT will pull the slide for the delam repair. I expect they could do the bladder at the same time.

Rich

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #23 – May 19, 2021, 06:30:38 pm

Quote from: evantwheeler – May 19, 2021, 04:38:11 pm

I am aware this is an old thread, researching best route for future slide bladder replacement and slide delamination & gelcoat/fiberglass repairs. Did HWH remove the slide from the coach & replace the bladder? One stop shop? Or was this model one that could have the bladder replaced without slide removal?

2003 and newer, maybe 2002 (not sure because of the train system used that year) can be pushed in. Older coaches require the slide to be removed in order to replace the slide bladder.

Re: Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention

Reply #24 – May 19, 2021, 10:31:50 pm

you will be SHOCKED at how affordable HWH service is

They will find and mark leaks on the brake system, but wont touch anything that isnt connected to one of their products.

Tim Fiedler

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