Delamination from seam screw leak

Topic: Delamination from seam screw leak (Read 1270 times) previous topic - next topic

Delamination from seam screw leak

October 11, 2016, 12:33:25 pm

I ask MOT and Xtreme to check for delam when I have the opportunity. This was found a few months ago, took a bit of time to get appointment at Xtreme.

The photos below will generally be common to those whoever had delam repair, but the cause might be an interest to a few of you.

The first photo is where Xtreme cut out the fiberglass skin to get to the area where the "glue" had failed. The second photo is of the gel coat repair (not yet fiberglass) after they dried the area for 48 hours. The removed piece, third photo, shows where water had run down under the skin.

If you a careful eye, you will notice that a hole was in the original, not in the new. We decided that since the washer/drier gone, just cover up the vent hole while doing this, limit other possible water access points.

The fourth photo is the most interesting.....that is where the water came it. That seam strip along the top had two screws that became loose, one even backing out a bit. Rance said may have had the leak there a long time, Greg not so sure. Greg did say this fairly rare.

If you decide to check these yourself, Rance forewarns that those screws go into several metal frames and if over tighten you would have larger problem. As I heard him, better to coat the area with silicone to seal than take a chance to over tighten but this aspect may generate further discussion, ideas.

The point is.....check those screws even though this is not common. And those along the bottom seam too, you do that just by running your finger along, see if you can feel a screw raised up. Those screws are easier to deal with as they go into wood, not metal.

Mike

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #1 – October 11, 2016, 01:13:32 pm

Quote from: Michael & Jackie – October 11, 2016, 12:33:25 pm

The first photo is where Xtreme cut out the fiberglass skin to get to the area where the "glue" had failed.

Mike,

How is it we can still see the graphics after they removed the fiberglass?

Thanks,

Trent

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #2 – October 11, 2016, 01:42:53 pm

Mike, regarding Rances comment on those screws, I have mentioned this item many times on Forum as to one to check out every six months. I actually do it (visual check) every week as I too have experienced them backing out slightly as we drive down road. It is such an easy thing to do (checking) but very few ever bother in my opinion! I have always put a dab of polyurethane caulk on the threads and in hole before replacing the screw. All of the coach's that have come thru my hands have the same problem. I see it as a safety measure to future problems.
For once it is nice to read from another member that it is a problem.
JohnH

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #3 – October 11, 2016, 01:51:16 pm

Could you use rivets instead of screws?

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #4 – October 11, 2016, 01:58:42 pm

Steve, not if you ever want to remove a panel etc. Too much work and may not solve the problem.
JohnH

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #5 – October 11, 2016, 02:22:59 pm

I agree with John.

A little polysulfide on the threads and torque it LIGHTLY.

You can tell a lot by a quick visual check. If the head is "proud" of the molding, it is loose. Goes for both roof line and belt line moldings/screws.

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #6 – October 11, 2016, 04:00:11 pm

Trent, I asked Jackie when she visited Xtreme about that.....as I understood her, the heat from the sun made those bleed thru. If that does not sound reasonable, I will revisit next time I am out there.

As far as knowing to check those two rows of screws, I did not know - so maybe this will help just a few to be reminded or learn to do that.

It is just another learning from Rance....like not ruining your bulkhead bolts by checking them with too much pressure. That cleaning the old gray caulking around the windows of our coach could lead to a leak, be careful if doing that.

mike

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #7 – October 11, 2016, 09:53:19 pm

I see a few coach bucks in your future.

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #8 – October 11, 2016, 10:49:21 pm

My door is slightly delaminated at the bottom. And it will likely stay that way...forever. The more I see of these FT, the less I feel the outer skin is really that structural. Just my opinion.

It's very thin chop strand matting that isn't tabbed to anything major. Just some glue to the metal studs?

Another option, that is often used in boat core-rot repair, would be to drill lots of holes and inject one's choice of magic potion. Lots of methods and opinions out there.

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #9 – October 11, 2016, 11:03:31 pm

I'm surprised there is no sign of any steel structure visible. I would expect to see rusted frame work stains on the inside surface of the removed skin. Maybe there just happens to not be any steel in that particular spot. The graphics ghosting in photo 1 does seem strange - I stared at it for the longest time trying to figure out how that could happen and I'm still scratching my head. Thanks for sharing the photos.

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #10 – October 12, 2016, 09:07:00 am

Isn't the structure aluminum instead of steel? I think I read that on this forum and didn't bother to verify it so maybe not.

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #11 – October 12, 2016, 09:17:09 am

When FT says "full body" paint, they mean "FULL BODY", insulation & all.

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #12 – October 12, 2016, 09:31:24 am

The sidewall structure is steel, roof structure is aluminium.

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #13 – October 12, 2016, 08:15:36 pm

Trent, Scott and JohnFitz

I revisited Xtreme to check progress and see if I had reported correctly. Generally yes, but I have more detail

a. The black color did/does bleed through the fiberglass. It is due to the heat of the sun. Being a black or dark color, it is prone to do this, is common, for the dark paint can get very hot. The fiberglass is stable to some temp, I think they said 200 degrees? but in any case the numbers I have seen, around 170 degrees is plenty to cause this.
b. The frame is steel, as Roger said. However, this episode did not get to the steel and cause rust.
c. Visualize the wall from the inside of the coach out - there is some type of interior vinyl board or whatever is particular to you coach. Then this attaches to the steel studs with insulation between the studs. Next outward is a layer of foam insulation and then attached outward to that is the gel coat. The last layer, the exterior on ours, is the fiberglass.
d. The gel coat separates the fiberglass from the foam insulation. Without that separation and protection, the fiberglassing process would deteriorate the foam. It is though compatible with the gel.
e. In the photo attached, you will see some green spots. In this, Rance is applying a kevlar material to fill in spots caused by outgassing and to give a level surface to the fiberglass.

The wall was said to be about 2 and 1/8-1/4 inches thick.

So much for this, hope clarifies what I have been reporting, answers the few questions.

Now for a few interesting tis bits I got out of this project. White coaches are less in style now, dark colors are in even though they can suffer more heat damages than light colors. It is even possible to see temperatures on some such fiberglass reach its upper limit before deterioration. However, if you can keep that temperature lower, then you see less fiberglass problems. One of the less expensive RVs does just that....they provide much less insulation and thus the heat dissipates into the coach even though that is probably not the goal, which is limiting costs. In this coach there are more AC's than in a FT due to more heat transferring thru the wall. This of course can cool the coach and at the same time dissipate the heat out of the wall structure. Thus that system is less prone to heat damage.

When a FT is built, as you have doubtlessly heard, they assemble the wall on a table. They then wrap the wall in a plastic bag (my term) and pull a very good vacuum on the assembly to bond all together. While a good way to build it, that is why one some FTs as you look down the side see some slightly wavy looking indentations. The steel studs hold rigid and the vacuum pulls in a bit unevenly at times some of the siding materials. It is normal. (I have seen the effect and thought it "not so good" but turns out not unusual)

Now, why not just pump some glue into a delam spot and press the fiberglass back against the gel? Let it sit 24 hours or so. The problem in that is that It requires a clean surface to get good adhesion. The clean surface is missing unless you take the area apart, per Xtreme, and clean it. When done without cleaning, the temporary fix may seem ok but in time the problem appears again. (I had watched a you tube of such a procedure). I wonder though if you cannot do this with fair success on a small spot, one with easy access?

I hope this helps complete or answer any questions. Interesting repair process, an education. We are so thankful to have Xtreme able to care for this damage.

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #14 – October 14, 2016, 10:14:53 pm

That's interesting, I never considered the possibility of dark body colors doing damage. I was considering painting my coach cargo doors and lower nose a dark color while shining the upper part to a brilliant white, like the blindingly bright coach parked at Foretravel when I was just there the other day... but maybe I'll just forget that now and do all white. At some point I'm gonna take my decals off when I get a lot of time and ambition ...well it could be quite a while! hahaha

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #15 – October 14, 2016, 10:47:46 pm

Scott, have not read carefully to see if I led you to believe, and maybe I miss what you are saying....but the dark color bleed thru its color and pattern to the gel was not a problem......I was just responding to someone that asked, why/how is that pattern still there after the fiberglass was removed.

That said, there are some year coaches where the dark colors with the higher temps did impact some fiberglasses but even in those the underlying issue was the fiberglass formulations.

In a separate thread however you will see that I asked why they paint the newer coaches so dark when they know it causes the crazing (a whole different issue) and I was told, we and they (customers) know it but they want it anyway. I gather that effect is not going to cause a problem, like cracks that lead to delam. I was led to understand it only cosmetic.

I hope I responded to what you mentioned and the other info is simply that, info....not intended nor should it be take to deter you from painting on your stripes.....I mean to say, hey, paint it as you like, enjoy the heck out of the new look. But if any question, ask Xtreme before they do the work whatever questions you might have. Truly, have a good time!

mike

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #16 – October 15, 2016, 06:14:53 pm

You only partially deterred me. The other part was seeing how striking the polished white coach in the Foretravel parking lot looked. Now I'm considering doing that, as are other people who saw it there.

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #17 – October 15, 2016, 06:38:52 pm

You can get you coach buffed out and polished many, many times for less than the cost of a paint job. And that first rock chip in the paint is just a few miles after you leave the paint shop. There are some beautiful paint jobs out there and it would be nice but I am liking my partially painted 2001 just fine. A lady came up to Susan when we were on the North Shore of Lake Superior last week to say how nice our coach looked. Most are shocked when they find out it will be 16 years old in December.

We were recently next to a 45ft coach, dark paint, flush style windows only half of which opened and those not much and none had window awnings. We were there for a week and never ran AC. Their AC was on 24/7, 3 or 4 units all the time. We saw a new Prevost a few weeks ago. 5 rooftop AC and an over the road AC system as well. Just to keep up the the black color. Just wait, white will be back in style.

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #18 – October 19, 2016, 05:10:40 pm

Used this stuff with great success on screws holding drip edge on our 5th wheel. Will seal completely and help hold screw from backing out. Also behind joint where a sealing strip is applied.

EternaBond DoubleStick

And this stuff anywhere on top where a leak around a fitting or through roof passing is made:

EternaBond RoofSeal PLUS

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #19 – October 20, 2016, 09:33:35 am

Quote from: RRadio – October 15, 2016, 06:14:53 pm

You only partially deterred me. The other part was seeing how striking the polished white coach in the Foretravel parking lot looked. Now I'm considering doing that, as are other people who saw it there.

(@RRadio) Scott,

Was this the coach you saw? If so, it was in the FOT shop parked right next to us when we had some remod work done 2 years ago. I was told it was getting new vinyl flooring installed. It looked just as good inside! I asked David F. if it was painted, and he said no it is just the original gel coat, and many hours of polishing. I also loved the pure unadulterated whiteness of that beauty...we might have ours done the same, if we can come up with the cash. Too lazy to try doing that much work myself.

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #20 – October 20, 2016, 10:41:05 am

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – October 20, 2016, 09:33:35 am

I also loved the pure unadulterated whiteness of that beauty...we might have ours done the same, if we can come up with the cash.

I'm getting to like that clean look, myself!

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #21 – October 29, 2016, 12:07:18 am

Xtreme finished the delam repair, took about two weeks. They repainted the side of the coach, not just the delam repair area. I did not know they had to do that, but Greg said it necessary to match the pearl paint layer.

Glad that done. He did say it was very rare to see those screws backed out, wondered how very long it took, been that way.

Typical customer service, professional job by Xtreme.

mike

Re: Delamination from seam screw leak

Reply #22 – October 29, 2016, 09:50:41 am

Looks a lot better than it did when I saw it in the Xtreme shop ! I was salivating over your engine hatch.

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