Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Topic: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install (Read 1607 times) previous topic - next topic

Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

October 12, 2016, 11:52:59 pm

This may belong in the Remod Forum but I have not been able to get that Forum to notify me of additions, so thinking you might have the same problem....and lots of interest in refrigerator changes....I will post here that will see a notification and expect that Moderators will move if they wish.

We had a two door Dometic (RM1272) refrigerator, the original as far as I know. Leaving on out last long trip, it would not cool below 40 degrees and the freezer not below 16 degrees (should be 6). Keith Risch got it to improve the cooling a bit so we made the trip. The inadequate cooling had begun after we defrosted it and after the trip and return, it was back to inadequate cooling.

The "opening" that housed the Dometic is about 36 x 60 inches and not as deep as the 28 inch refrigerator we bought. There is a drawer below the Dometic and Jackie did not want to lose that storage when changing to the residential. As we decided on the size we wanted we found for us no need for a huge house refrigerator. We consulted about options by pm or meeting with Barry and Cindy, Dave Cobb, Don Hay...who is now changing his...Roger Engdahl and no telling how many others on the Forum by reviewing their posts. THANKS TO ALL!

We had the option of a 11 cu ft Whirlpool (24 inches wide) that would require almost no cabinet height modification. But we found the 14.33 cu ft Whirlpool (28 inches wide) would require only a little cabinet change to its floor and would also leave room beside the refrigerator for more pantry or such storage, similar to Roger's. Jackie liked the Whirlpool 314 with glass shelves, The energy demand is modest. This refrigerator has about 2.5 times the freezer space as the Dometic and the refrigeration part is larger and better arranged. So while not greatly larger than the Dometic, about a 12 cu ft unit think, it looked perfect for us. We also have an ice maker in this, we did not in Dometic so we gained in a sense by not having the ice trays.

MOT said there would be no need to change our inverter to manage it. Having the three 8ds versus two some have would work just fine. Our inverter is a 3.0 but the standard 2.5 would have been fine as well if you are planning. As for weight, I am fairly certain that the Whirlpool is 100 lbs lighter than the Dometic.

Jackie selected a black textured finish as that matched the microwave plus Dave Cobb suggested that. I think Don Hay may have decided the same, not sure.

The Whirlpool is 28 inches wide and 28 deep, about 63 inches tall. It BARELY fit in thru the window! Keith Davis and Dave Landeros said it had about 1/8 inch clearance to spare! They had to cut into the lower drawer space only a small amount, were able to modify the drawer below it, keep it as planned. Good.

If you do this change yourself, read other threads to be sure you have the right electricity connections. I will not review that here. Call me if need to discuss that aspect.

Another topic with this refrigerator. How much do the handles stick out into the hallway? The refrigerator itself already extends further out than the Dometic. The handles would add 2 inches to that. In our coach though, due to the slide and the dining table, this not an issue for us. If you have a 36 ft coach though, the refrigerator might be back closer to the bathroom hall and that may be an issue. There is for that a 14.33 Whirlpool that does not have handles but indentions in the door that you use to open it.

I had typical questions....how does it vent the hot air? Why kind of space must be left around it? How can I unplug it if I need to do so (via the outside access panel that had gone to the Dometic)? What secures it in place? (silicone, some braces, wood frames)

Don Cox and I were on a coach the other day and in ten hours of driving, one of that refrigerators doors came open nine times. MOT devised a snap strap that we think will work to prevent this on a two door top freezer unit as this Whirlpool. Maybe it shows in a photo. Not sure will keep this system, but a beginning.

As soon as the refrigerator was hooked up and running, we found it was making ice in ten minutes and the cold hard to believe versus what we had in the Dometic. Dave Landeros noted that in the Dometic if you open the door, the cold drops out and it takes even several hours to recover the cold. That would not be the case with the residential. He was right. A "bid deal" for us....we tend to open the door, look in and search rather than a quick open and close.

Of course we no longer have the need for the LP for cooling but we do lose some flexibility in that. We are keeping the LP though for the cooktop. Roger Engdahl in their change removed the large tank to go to a much smaller tank as I recall, perhaps he will Reply about that....seems an option for us.

The photos are fairly snapshot affairs, not of a John S. quality I am afraid, but I hope gives you some ideas. I thought Dave did very good cabinet work, he has years of experience.

My intention by the photos is to 1) show you the overall appearance and spacial relationships, 2) show that the drawer cabinet was retained below the refrigerator though cut down just a little, 3) show you the storage space, with two drawers and two shelves for trays and such, built to the right side of the refrigerator and 4) the trial MOT system to keep the doors closed when traveling.

Send me phone number via pm if you want to talk. As to cost, the refrigerator was a little over $500 with Lowes discount and with ice maker kit that MOT installed. The cabinet/installation costs are the significant cost and will vary by the scope of the cabinet and finish work you have them do. Some installations may require them to run a water line and, or inverter line.

And finally....a big thanks to Jackie. She worked to find the refrigerator she wanted, worked with Lowes to get it delivered to MOT, worked with Keith Davis and David Landeros to design the cabinet/drawers and worked with them to adjust the design as the project moved along.

Overall, a great job Keith and Dave. We appreciate the extra care and attention to detail in this, it looks great and is COLD!

Mike

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #1 – October 13, 2016, 07:00:56 am

good job, I saw Dave Cobbs' installation a couple weeks ago. A few years ago, Dave helped me install a new one in Glockjocks' coach
when my dometic bites the dust- a Samsung will be its replacement

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #2 – October 13, 2016, 09:38:29 am

Hi Mike, Nice job. The new refrigerator will be a pleasing improvement. Somehow our 18 cu ft one is mostly full and always at the temp we set it at. The bigger freezer space is very useful for us.

I have not pulled the LP tank yet but am working toward that end. I am going to add two more batteries in that space, most likely L16 size 6 volt batteries in series for a 400 amp hr source for my 1000 watt pure sine wave inverter to run the refrigerator. The big LP tanks comes out and I will use a 5 (or maybe 10) lb tank. If it was just the stove I could get by on even a 2 lb size but we have a gas fire pit that we enjoy. It uses about 1 lb per hour at max output. These small tanks are legally refillable and transportable. We always hava a couple of the green cylinders on hand too for the grill.

All of these mods are personal choices. They get made by each of us with the hope that they will improve our coach's livability, safety, longevity and our enjoyment. Enjoy!

Roger

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #3 – October 13, 2016, 10:38:35 am

The 14.3 seems large enough for us due to better arrangement of shelves versus the Dometic. The freezer 3.8 Cu ft is huge to us but I forgot to include for you, we can supplement it with the bay freezer if we ever need (did not though with the Dometic)

I keep reminding myself in many things in RVing what Carol S. told me one time...don't fret much about things (food) you are not travelling in the Sahara, you are never too far from a Walmart! So if I run out of clean clothes, I just go to Walmart! Lol.

Jackie essentially only agreed to residential as Dometic failed and if she not lose storage in that drawer below the fridge. My propane concerns were not a high priority to her!

We really liked the side storage Roger had built, so we copied that. We also looked at the 16 cu ft Whirlpool, it too being 28 inches wide, but it would have taken out the bottom drawer.

All said, while we are thrilled, I think for many the large Samsungs are truly beautiful and the way to go...maybe one in our house one day. MOT now has tried a different model Samsung than had been using and said it will be their preferred change now.

I thought Roger had already done the propane change out...sorry got that wrong...so maybe I will get that done before him? But....going to first quit carrying my large portable bottle, try connection to coach propane. No need for extra batteries for us though with energy draw of the 14.3 and we not dry camp, per MOT and Cobb.

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #4 – October 13, 2016, 11:16:13 am

A friend sent me a PM to ask of the arrangement of the kitchen....is it in the slide or opposite? It is opposite the slide.

His concern, question, rightly so!...... Is about the refrigerator door opening space in a no slide coach. So if you any have comments, experience with that, posting may help more than my friend.

An important note: I forgot to say, when replacing a Dometic, be sure to look at that refrigerator door swing radius (each manufacture provides that on their web site) and be sure to consider the configuration of the residential door versus Dometic on the top....examine if the residential door can hit some ceiling structure (ac vent, light structure). Look at your Dometic, you will see its door is not flush with the top of that fridge and thus the door swings out lower. Not so with the residential where door is higher versus the Dometic. Was an issue for us to consider, could not just raise the unit up to gain an inch or two in the existing cabinet.

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #5 – October 13, 2016, 11:57:45 am

For anyone with the smaller refer, after talking to several folks, I went with the Haier 10.11 from Lowes. It is essentially a plug and play replacement. Running, it draws ~ 6A, around a 30% duty cycle. Ran the old propane line to a QD for my Wave heater. Don't plan on EVER having a POS absorbent refer in a coach again!

The cycle jack in the photo made removal and installation a one person piece of cake. Removal of the old from the coach, thru the door was a 2 person job.

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #6 – October 13, 2016, 02:18:56 pm

The drawbacks of the absorbent refer are well known. The 7832 in ours and for sale hereis a rare model as it has a separate compressor in the freezer section.

In other words and in a limited way it's an partial optional home refer.

We also use the Dometic slide out in the bays.

We are sort of preppers here in shaky town(la) and the ability to run the propane only for extended times in a emergency is something we factored in.

Harder to justify changing out our reliable Dometic as the total conversion with four identical gel batteries and a roof full of solar and a new 2812 magna sin can approach $10 coach bucks.

Plus now we are limited to the in coach gen fuel supply plus the solar.

Not most here's needs or thoughts.

My guru buddy cautions on the residental refers with a horizontal mounted compressor as he can hear the oil mixed in with the refrigerant going through the compressor's valving.

Popping noises. Was not made for a moving vechile. Or to be in a non temperature controlled room.

Adds heat to the front, versus vent to the rear and up and out.

Just saying.

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #7 – October 13, 2016, 02:29:46 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – October 13, 2016, 02:18:56 pm

The drawbacks of the absorbent refer are well known. The 7832 in ours and for sale hereis a rare model as it has a separate compressor in the freezer section.

In other words and in a limited way it's an partial optional home refer.

We also use the Dometic slide out in the bays.

We are sort of preppers here in shaky town(la) and the ability to run the propane only for extended times in a emergency is something we factored in.

Harder to justify changing out our reliable Dometic as the total conversion with four identical gel batteries and a roof full of solar and a new 2812 magna sin can approach $10 coach bucks.

Plus now we are limited to the in coach gen fuel supply plus the solar.

Not most here's needs or thoughts.

My guru buddy cautions on the residental refers with a horizontal mounted compressor as he can hear the oil mixed in with the refrigerant going through the compressor's valving.

Popping noises. Was not made for a moving vechile. Or to be in a non temperature controlled room.

Adds heat to the front, versus vent to the rear and up and out.

Just saying.

Don't know about compressor mounting, but as in my previous posts, the "81 FT I have came from the factory with an Amana residential refrigerator which I removed and installed a Whirlpool in 1994 to get ice maker inside the fridge. That refrigerator is still going as I type this, with my son living fulltime in it. Although it is motionless at this time I used it for 18 years with no trouble and places we went were off the chart unlevel at times.

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #8 – October 13, 2016, 02:52:23 pm

"The drawbacks of the absorbent refer are well known. The 7832 in ours and for sale hereis a rare model as it has a separate compressor in the freezer section."

Do not think it is that rare. Have seen several 99 320's with absorption fridges that have an electric compressor on the freezer. Looks like a standard refrigerator compressor only smaller. I like ice, so ran mine 24/7 on the inverter with no problems.
Jim

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #9 – October 13, 2016, 11:46:02 pm

97-99's u320 and 295's seems to have that refer. Later do not and have the eco friendly less chromate coating in the cooling unit and fail.

What a crummy failure. Forces either a $4k new Dometic or a residential refer.

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #10 – October 14, 2016, 12:41:06 am

Quote from: Caflashbob – October 13, 2016, 11:46:02 pm

97-99's u320 and 295's seems to have that refer. Later do not and have the eco friendly less chromate coating in the cooling unit and fail.

What a crummy failure. Forces either a $4k new Dometic or a residential refer.

Believe 97 295's had 2 door [upper freezer, lower fridge] instead of side by side like 320's. No electric compressor.

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #11 – October 14, 2016, 12:53:12 am

The old fridge in our 2000 295 was a side by side door and had a seperate motor for freezer.
JohnH

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #12 – October 14, 2016, 09:17:30 am

Great job Mike and Jackie: when my domestic goes out a Samsung will be installed. No aqua hot in my coach so gas needed for heat. Have new Samsung ordered for my home should be here tomorrow.

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #13 – October 14, 2016, 09:27:06 am

The fridge in our 1997 U295 was a side by side
John

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #14 – October 14, 2016, 10:34:56 am

Quote from: jcus – October 14, 2016, 12:41:06 am

Believe 97 295's had 2 door [upper freezer, lower fridge] instead of side by side like 320's. No electric compressor.

My 97 U295 also had the side by side, with dedicated ice maker compressor. Just switched it out for the Samsung 18cf, as many others have done. The Dometic still works fine & is currently for sale in the classifieds.

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #15 – October 14, 2016, 11:08:05 am

My 97 295 did not have side by side. Must have been a special order, not sure why someone
would want a smaller fridge.

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #16 – October 14, 2016, 11:39:02 am

Jim C....this is my thinking to answer your question, why would anyone want smaller fridge?

in some FTs the cabinet does not allow a larger refrigerator without very major kitchen modifications. Thus the 10 and 11 cu fts are thankfully available. The alternative to them I guess is to rebuild their Dometics, not what I would do but can see some might. The adsorption units do have some advantages depending how you travel and park.

There are advantages too for some brands over others in repair part availabilities and reliability. The idea of pulling one out to replace if it goes bad is, well, not high on the list of worries, but dang sure not want to repeat that process!

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #17 – October 14, 2016, 12:17:11 pm

Quote from: Michael & Jackie – October 14, 2016, 11:39:02 am

Jim C....this is my thinking to answer your question, why would anyone want smaller fridge?

in some FTs the cabinet does not allow a larger refrigerator without very major kitchen modifications. Thus the 10 and 11 cu fts are thankfully available. The alternative to them I guess is to rebuild their Dometics, not what I would do but can see some might. The adsorption units do have some advantages depending how you travel and park.

There are advantages too for some brands over others in repair part availabilities and reliability. The idea of pulling one out to replace if it goes bad is, well, not high on the list of worries, but dang sure not want to repeat that process!

Good points Mike, and if a small fridge goes bad, you bring a new one in the door, a big one, which window to take out.
Jim

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #18 – October 14, 2016, 12:22:17 pm

The 97 u295 cai floorplan on Barry's site had the smaller refer

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #19 – October 14, 2016, 12:51:52 pm

When doing our res' fridge install the cost of the whirlpool was about 1/3 rd the cost of rebuild of the original so common sense said go res' (plus I already had decent amount of solar)
The slide out pantry I built to fill space left over in change out can be totally removed as a unit to give back this area should we or next owner want a bigger fridge. No major rebuilding needs to be done, just finishing to match new sizes.
With all the problems Samsung is having, even their clothes Driers are exploding I expect to hear in the news that their fridges suddenly start acting as a cooker instead of cooling. Not a stupid thought the way things are going right now??
johnH

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #20 – October 24, 2016, 12:26:42 pm

Put my Kill-A-Watt on the Haier yesterday after it had been plugged in and cooled down for 24hrs. It was about 2/3 full of bottled water in the refer, nothing in the freezer. After an unattended 24hr run, the Kill-A-Watt indicated a 0.62 KWH used. Minimum temp in the refer was 35.6°, max 40.8°.

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #21 – October 24, 2016, 01:01:39 pm

The energy guide says this refrigerator uses 330 kWh per year. 333000/(24*12) = 37.7 watts per hour. In 24 hrs that would be 904 watts. This represents normal use of the refrigerator, normal load, normal opening and closing. I monitored my Samsung 18 cu ft French door refrigerator over a week of typical use. It was pretty close to the energy guide for that refrig. Your measurements are probably typical for overnight when the refrig is at steady state and the doors are not being opened. Thanks for sharing your test results.

It is kWh. Math is the same.

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #22 – October 24, 2016, 01:13:31 pm

Temp inside coach? Wonder what normal door opening cycles would add? How much of three fully charged 8D's would that consume I wonder?

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #23 – October 24, 2016, 01:31:13 pm

I only have 2 Lifeline 8D's, that gives me ~250 AH expendable. That, along with the solar, I'm not to concerned. If it becomes an issue I can get 3 new O'Riley batteries, add that cost to my solar install to get 30% off of my taxes. Refer...$400, batteries $1000 net, and I'm still below the cost of a replacement Dometic with a better, larger, safer unit.

Temp in the coach was in the mid 70's., this link may help us understand the battery issue.

Difference between amp hours and watt hours | All About Lead Acid Batteries

Re: Remod and Repairs Report Cont. - Residential Refrigerator Install

Reply #24 – October 24, 2016, 01:39:47 pm

Inside temps make a difference as do the temps in the refrigerator cabinet and the venting at the top. Our Samsung uses about 55 watt per hour.

40 watts at 120 volts is .33 amps. Through a 90% efficient inverter that is about 3.7 amps from 12 volts. Plus the older inverters use 4-6 amps just to function while inverting. So figure 8.7 amps. 3 8Ds have about 720 ah max. Down to 50% capacity is 360 amp hrs. This assumes the batteries are fairly new, in good shape and (worst assumption) that they are actually fully charged. So, if the only thing using the inverter is the refrigerator then 360/8.7 is about 41 hours. In my coach the TV for a few hours, mobile device battery chargers, the ceiling fan and everything else that uses 110 volts uses about the same as the refrigerator plus all of the other 12 volt loads. If your use is like mine then somewhere near 20 hrs is probable.

In the winter when we are heading south and spend the night in a Walmart it is dark by 5 and not light till almost 8. The heat is on. Lights are on. Demands are quite high. With a residential refrigerator lasting until morning without generator use was tough. My new alternator and improved charging components pushes my 8D's closer to capacity when we stop than they have ever been. Now an overnight stop is much less stress. I am adding more battery capacity.

Nevertheless, you will enjoy the residential refrigerator. We do.

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